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NAMM: Presonus StudioLive 32.4.2AI
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #31
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grasspike's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDC ➡️
Pffft. Half of the people here don't do what they say they do, have what they save they have, so it doesn't surprise me that there is a state of delusion, listening to MP3 samples of microphones on their laptops. I work in reality, serving churches, schools and corporations. This world here is a spec in the economy of audio/video/control systems contracting.
Actually I work full time at a large church and freelance for several sound companies doing very occasional gigs.

Reading your responses to this thread is typical of my experience with retail "consultants" who only worry about "PROTECTION" for their profits and do not keep abreast of technology or the markets thd who have ignorant people there.

The beauty of a board like the X32 or even the Yamaha Pro Consoles like the PM5D, the M7CL, or the LS9 is the programming aspect.

I can program them save that as a scene and then let my volunteers run that scene, according to the event they are running. I can also lock out things so they can't make changes to things like the main EQ's.

I have also never seen a small church need a 32 channel board. What would they use it for?

And one thing churches of all sizes worry about it costs. What would they drop 4 grand on a Presonus board when they could drop 3 on the X32 or if they found that too complex why not drop $1349 and get the Mackie 3204? You could buy 3 Mackie's for the cost of one 32 channel Presonus.

Oh that's right the $1349 Mackie board does not offer "PROTECTION" for your profits. But you can record the house mix via USB which is nice.

I think the only delusion in this thread is from retailers thinking that this board is somehow better than the X32 for the majority of situations
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #32
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDC ➡️
70 % of their console business is the church market. This will sell, and will be seen as a plug and play replacement for analog, which is where the church market is for the average church of 250 members or less, which is now modernizing. This is not a mega church product. It is not a major tour product. This is what it is and it will sell well in our market.

Since when is Behringer the measuring stick of the industry. Thank God they are not. Yes, the X32 is a good little piece, I have sold and installed some. But the very cool features that I would use are not what the average church with a volunteer and very limited staff is going to need/use. Plus the X32 has no analog split option, no digital I/O, no inserts on groups, master, etc.

I don't think it is fair to bash the four busses. If you look at the X32, you only have 16 busses for everything (subs, auxes, etc). You are limited to two busses on the X32 , IF you want to use 14 auxes like you can with the StudioLive.
If this is aimed at the church market, who if they still have analog boards probably have limited budgets, they will vote to buy the board that's $1000 less than this one.

Oh and if they're a church with an an analog board, how many digital connections do they need? How many need Dante?

Sorry, but this product was designed for no target market/price point in mind. I don't have a horse in this race, but Uli has stepped up on the boards and is insisting that with their new factory and new quality control, this is a new Behringer. That's more than the Presonus folks have ever done.

Time will be the big teller of who wins, but judging from the number of X32s already sold and the number of issues in the field with Studiolives, this contest may be over before the board hits retail shelves.

Also, considering folks can buy 2 SL 16.4.2's and digitally connect them for a 32 channel mixing board with flexibility for less without losing that many features (besides the yet to be seen option cards), this isn't even a value.
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #33
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grasspike's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedorama ➡️
If this is aimed at the church market, who if they still have analog boards probably have limited budgets, they will vote to buy the board that's $1000 less than this one.
Sadly they will never see that the X32 exists. People like PDC go into churches to "consult". Then they will sell them things that make them the most money with a cookie cutter approach. It goes something like this.

"Oh you have a 24 channel analog board that has some noisy faders and pots. While I could just clean them for you, what you really need is to upgrade to this fine Presonus. It's digital you know, and it does things that other companies want to charge you $10,000 for, but it is a bargain at only $4,000 and it will give you 12 extra channels. Sure you only use 20 right now, but this will give you room to grow into the future.

I will of course install it for you for an extra grand, but for that I will run 12 more XLR cables from the stage to the booth (there is always a booth) that I will make myself out of the cheapest counterfeit cable ever to come out of China. Sure it will need to be replaced in 5 years and will give you 60 cycle hum but hey just call me back and I will fix it all up for you then, for a fee of course. And plenum rating who needs it. This cable is so good I will run it right next to the conduits and the ballasts and transformers in the ceiling so you know its good. Just don't tell the Fire Marshall After all I specialize in the Church/School/Corporation market and I know the realities of that market. You can't trust what you read on the internet, those guys do not know what they are talking about. They listen to microphone demos on their laptop speakers from MP3 files"
Old 24th January 2013
  #34
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RightOnRome's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I have a x32 and a 16.4.2 .. don't understand why they are releasing the 32 with out serious upgrades..if this was last year this time then ok but they missed the buss..it makes no cents at this date.. have you seen the new x32 iPad app update ..totally crushes the presonus
Old 24th January 2013
  #35
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6 Reviews written
🎧 5 years
if i had a dollar for every time i heard "theres no motorized faders" when it comes to studiolive mixers...
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #36
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dickiefunk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Wondering if it's possible for Presonus to make a Wifi Adapter via firewire for the older Studiolive desks!?
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #37
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🎧 10 years
Here comes another one.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/winte...-producer.html

ns
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #38
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BradLyons's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Many years ago I sat down with Presonus discussing a product concept I had for the studio market. At the time the Digi002 had been out for less than a year and doing incredibly well, but for those not using Pro Tools---the options were very limited for a control surface solution that was integrated with an audio interface. I talked about a product that had 16-inputs, DSP with real-time effects and dynamics processing, a control surface with motorized faders, etc. Some time down the road they then released the original StudioLive 16-channel console and to my complete surprise THERE WERE NO MOTORIZED FADERS and NO CONTROL SURFACE MODE. To say I was puzzled was an understatement, I didn't understand the concept of a 16-channel digital mixing board that was setup like an analog console meant for a studio setup or live sound----but no motorized faders, no transport control, fader control, etc for $1999??? So I tried out one of the very first units shipped and it sounded incredibly good, but still what it was missing for what it cost v/s what else was on the market.

WELL I had a client, at the time, that was a church looking building a new worship space----their budget for equipment was originally $50,000, then that got slashed to $25,000 and then cut in half again. What we originally had on the design was a 32-channel console, 16-channels of compression, 4-channels of reverb, and a 24-channel recording setup. WELL when that budget got slashed.....the compressors dropped to 4-channels, the effects dropped to 2-channels, and the console had to go to 24-inputs. Likewise the recording option had to go away. But then the Studiolive's became available and we stopped the purchase as it was about to ship.... I made them a deal to let me send them (2) consoles and if it didn't work out to send them back (I was somewhat skeptical myself). They were floored by them, giving them back 32-inputs, having the option of compression/dynamics on ANY channel, upgrading them to 32-tracks of recording, and taking up far less space. Oh yes, for less money than the scaled down system. From that point on I realized the market for this console was different than I had pictured---but one I had never realized was there but had no solution. WHY ARE THERE NO MOTORIZED FADERS? Well the reality is in the design of the console you do NOT need them because there is an actual fader for every channel, just like on an analog console. In addition the cost to add them would have dramatically changed the price to the consumer, and based on the sales I've seen since day one I'd say the consumer has voted that they don't care. The Studiolive 16 was such an incredible success (and still is) that it has created an entire product family, to where we're at now.

Whether you're a home studio and need a mixer to plug your synths into but also record, or you're mixing FOH audio and need to record, mixing monitors, mixing FOH sound and have NO intentions of recording.... the Studiolive series will work for any of those needs. I had one high profile client that was using a 16-channel analog mixer, a high performance 24-track recorder that was big, bulky, heavy, and expensive (not to mention the cables) to record location events around the country. When the Studiolive came out he went to a laptop and the Studiolive, that was it. I was one of the Technical Directors for the World Choir Games in China back in 2010, I had (2) boards with me that were used for practice in our hotel rooms and stage monitors live which was a good thing, they had no intention of giving us anything other than ONE monitor. Well I needed a mix for my drummer, bass player, guitar player, sax, and the choir. That's how we rehearsed, that's what we were used to. Oh yeah I was able to record that as well, and easily give them direct outs for the house.

When it comes to the house of worship market I am knee-deep in this and find that's where the Studiolive shines. While some churches have someone like myself in charge of their systems, many do not and need simplicity---but they also need features. The Studiolive is an option for them providing a simple design that they are used to, no banking of faders, trying to understand how one fader can be multiple things, etc. At my location I have an X32 side by side to a Studiolive16 and a Studiolive24. While one might think that the X32 will sell against the Studiolive every time, that's NOT the case. There are those that do not want the moving faders, do not want a "digital-feeling" console, that want the capabilities of digital but to feel like an analog board, etc. Likewise there are those that WANT banking faders, an onboard "computer-screen", the ability to interface a digital snake, etc and therefore the X32 would be ideal. AND there are those that need more than what the X32 can do or want higher-end features, the X32 wouldn't even be a choice for those. My point is that the Studiolive is an incredible product series that is selling (STILL) like crazy. Why? Because there was as specific market for it, one I didn't even see....and it fits that market better than anything else. It might not be for everyone but for those that its design meets the needs, it's a great solution.

But even if it had motorized faders there would be those complaining about it---why? Well the X32 has motorized faders, I remember the thread about how it lacked in transport, software control, etc. Well the thing is that the X32 IS A LIVE CONSOLE, NOT A STUDIO INTERFACE :-) Yes it has the ability to record, but it's not a Digi003. SO that console has a specific market and need and is doing incredible. Likewise, so is the Studiolive---and this new board WILL find its home in those settings that it makes the most sense.

The needs are different from one to the next even with the same person. For example I'm the Technical Director at my church and we're about to build a new worship facility this year. Currently I have an LS9-32 in our main sanctuary, an 01V96 in our secondary worship space, and a Mackie Onyx 24x4 in our Youth Room. The secondary worship space will become a new children's worship center and at that point the 01V96 will have to go, I need something VERY SIMPLE for my volunteers----so we're putting in a Studiolive24. The current worship center will be converted to a youth worship center, the LS9 might stay, however I might retire it for an X32. Why? The board will be 5-years old when they are ready to move in, everything will be updated so I might update the console---and they don't need a $10,000 console. In the new worship space will most likely be a Soundcraft SI3+. My point is this.... my LS9 is MAXED out right now, I need more inputs than it can handle, I need a recording option but can't do it with everything else there. BUT for awhile it was MORE than fine for what our church was doing and did an amazing job. Needs change, fortunately there are many options for the consumer out there---and as a consultant I present those options to my clients. I'm thankful to have the Studiolive consoles, the X32, the LS9's, etc because it allows me to find the best solution for the need, rather than a "one size doesn't quite fit all but we'll make it work" approach...INCLUDING MYSELF :-)
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #39
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dickiefunk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Agreed the Studiolive does still fill a niche! I went with one of these because it is so easy to navigate around and does still have an analog feel about it. I've used the Yamaha 01V mixers and these were very inconvenient for making quick changes and just didn't sound as nice!

My only complaint with the original Studiolives is the fact that you need a laptop to be able to mix with an ipad using WIFI!

PLEASE PRESONUS MAKE AN ADAPTER FOR THE ORIGINAL STUDIOLIVES TO BE ABLE TO USE AN IPAD VIA WIFI!!!
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #40
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🎧 10 years
I've been having lots of fun with the Mackie DL1608.
If the feature set fits the show requirements, it's a great little board for live gigs.
Lots of room for improvement, but they got many of the basics right and the iPad app is stable.
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #41
Old 25th January 2013
  #42
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projektk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Im sold I will be buying one of these in 2014 along with build a new hackintosh to compliment it. Its got a nice set of features and will cover my io needs forever. If I can save at least $2k this year, my tax return next year combined with whatever else I can save in 2014 should cover it no issues.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #43
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
presonus all the way

i would not have a Behringer product if it was gave to me!!!!
i have a presonus 16.0.2 and 2 16.4.2 and also have 2 fire studio projects and all work great love using Behringer is a cheap made mixer i have ran recording studio and live sound for 15 years and i use to be a big peavey mixer fan until the peavey fx mixer what a joke it was i am a personus guy all the way i have tried usb interface but when when recording more than 8 tracks usb is to slow for the audio streams
Old 25th January 2013
  #44
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by johne758 ➡️
i would not have a Behringer product if it was gave to me!!!!
i have a presonus 16.0.2 and 2 16.4.2 and also have 2 fire studio projects and all work great love using Behringer is a cheap made mixer
Things are changing, fast.
Old 25th January 2013
  #45
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
I can't fault the studiolive range, it doesn't have motorised faders which would benefit some instances but running an ipad with it you can still change the levels away from the console, you can store scene selections for recall (like SSLs total recall on their mixers and XRACK) which takes all of 30 seconds to do on a mixer in a live environment.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johne758 ➡️
i would not have a Behringer product if it was gave to me!!!!
i have a presonus 16.0.2 and 2 16.4.2 and also have 2 fire studio projects and all work great love using Behringer is a cheap made mixer i have ran recording studio and live sound for 15 years and i use to be a big peavey mixer fan until the peavey fx mixer what a joke it was i am a personus guy all the way i have tried usb interface but when when recording more than 8 tracks usb is to slow for the audio streams
Come out of the cave bro. Have you even touched an X2? I didnt think so
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #47
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Kaoz's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by johne758 ➡️
i would not have a Behringer product if it was gave to me!!!!
i have a presonus 16.0.2 and 2 16.4.2 and also have 2 fire studio projects and all work great love using Behringer is a cheap made mixer i have ran recording studio and live sound for 15 years and i use to be a big peavey mixer fan until the peavey fx mixer what a joke it was i am a personus guy all the way i have tried usb interface but when when recording more than 8 tracks usb is to slow for the audio streams
You'd think someone with 15 years experience would get over blind fanboyism.
Old 25th January 2013
  #48
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Well the important questions - how do they sound compared to each other?

iPad control is cool, but for the most part, the main outputs wouldn't need that so much, mostly for the AUX sends in my mind (setting monitor levels or MAYBE - artist control over own monitor mix) - so non-motorized faders is not such a big deal. Make the board bigger with more faders vs motorizing a fewer number of fader - both have merits, but I like more faders personally. The big pain is recall.

Let's face it, both boards are dirt cheap and much better (from a digital perspective) than the control features on older products, win win, right? Behringer has a long way to go before they gain my trust as a pro audio company. First off is some questionable ethics as a business, seemingly ripping off other companies' intellectual property. I'm not sure that this behavior hasn't stopped. Is it a coincidence that everyone seems to be coming out with active auto-aware DSP controlled loudspeaker? An all in-one-portable PA that looks very familiar. An iPad based mixer, also very familiar looking - I mean a ground up redesign would potentially have looked much different, no? Then they buy Midas, ok that's cool. How many new Midas products were released? That might not be totally fair since MIDAS is more for professional tours and installation contractors, so NAMM isn't necessarily the best place to release new product, but I do see the "MIDAS designed preamps" being touted everywhere. My suspicion is that Behringer, having made some money copying other people's designs, is now in the business of acquiring other companies in order to suck up some of the technology and branding, set prices aggressively low to drive out the competition... at which point, have they become a "legitimate" manufacturer with original designs? Is it really the destination or is it the path that is important?
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #49
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4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoz ➡️
You'd think someone with 15 years experience would get over blind fanboyism.
It just goes to show you how far a bad reputation can reach in this business. I haven't had a bad experience with a behringer product since they built Behringer city and started doing their own QC. Never stopped anyone from looking down at me for using it.

I use a Presonus 16.4.2 every week 2-3 times and have about 250-300 shows on it. It has failed me (temporarily) about 5 times in that time. Always in the middle of a performance. VERY embarrassing.

The Behringer mixer that preceded it failed me 0 times. The Mackie before it, failed me once.

I wouldn't hesitate to jump on an X2, especially now that there is a smaller form factor available, and I doubt it would fail me anywhere near the number of times the presonus has.

Keep in mind, every time the presonus acted up a quick reboot of everything solved the problem. And for some reason the presonus mixer trips every GFI unless I power it on last. Even the amps don't cause a problem but the Studiolive does. Also, I traced the problem down to the 12v lamp port. If I have a lamp plugged in the board behaves badly. A quick trip to the forums told me that it i in the design, not a defect in my board. Something weird with the grounding. Even had the a weird ground loop one time where the amps sent 48v through their enclosures when connected to the board. Not fun! lol.

It's a great sounding board, and I do great work with it...but as temperamental and finicky as it is I certainly wouldn't be touting it's reliability in the field as to why its a better product than the X2.

I havent mixed on an X2 but I have spent some time digging through one and the depth and ergonomics are awesome. It's destined to become a classic based on it's price/performance ratio.

This new Presonus announcement is just beyond puzzling.
Old 25th January 2013
  #50
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ddageek's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Real church market the Studiolive wins , Fader per channel wins over cheap motorized faders for ease of use and the fact that 10 years out you wont be replacing SMD mounted faders! In the mid size church market it was is and always be aux sends trump groups!
The 32 fader is about growth, every modern worship church wants to grow, if they need 20 inputs today better to sell them a 32, they might even rent some wireless and use those inputs for the holidays!

Also the Behringer can be a hard sell many have had a bad experience, and the ACp8, and 88 are god sends in this market!

but hey what do I know, I just sold thousands of consoles.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #51
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mike vee's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike ➡️
to me this board for $1,000 more than an X32 is a non starter. And why put in a USB port if all you can do with it is run a WIFI adapter.

Lets hope you can record all 32 tracks via USB also. I want no part of Thunderbolt or Firewire as I waved bye bye to Apple several years ago and never looked back.
love to hear when people wake up from the Apple brainwash
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #52
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4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddageek ➡️

but hey what do I know, I just sold thousands of consoles.

Thousands? Wow! That's definitely impressive. Of course the driver and the car salesman both have a very different idea of the perfect car so....
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #53
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradLyons ➡️
There are those that do not want the moving faders, do not want a "digital-feeling" console, that want the capabilities of digital but to feel like an analog board, etc. Likewise there are those that WANT banking faders, an onboard "computer-screen", the ability to interface a digital snake, etc and therefore the X32 would be ideal. AND there are those that need more than what the X32 can do or want higher-end features, the X32 wouldn't even be a choice for those.

I think we forget just how much analog consoles are still used, and how many people are making the leap to digital. My opinion? Presonus is smart, and their new speaker systems will carry them, while these consoles will still do well to a targeted market.


D
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #54
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grasspike's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike vee ➡️
love to hear when people wake up from the Apple brainwash
yep, it was the best thing I ever did
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #55
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grasspike's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Sanborn ➡️
Dear all,

Allow me to add a few comments.

We are proud that the X32 is now officially the most successful digital console on the market and we have just won the Readers’ Choice Award 2013 - ProSoundWeb and Live Sound International.

We have seen many church installations of the X32 and if you check out YouTube you will find lots of videos..........

If you have any questions please feel free to contact me.

Best
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
thanks Joe, you should be proud, the X32 is a great product at a great price.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #56
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grasspike's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddageek ➡️
Real church market the Studiolive wins , Fader per channel wins over cheap motorized faders for ease of use and the fact that 10 years out you wont be replacing SMD mounted faders! In the mid size church market it was is and always be aux sends trump groups!
The 32 fader is about growth, every modern worship church wants to grow, if they need 20 inputs today better to sell them a 32, they might even rent some wireless and use those inputs for the holidays!

Also the Behringer can be a hard sell many have had a bad experience, and the ACp8, and 88 are god sends in this market!

but hey what do I know, I just sold thousands of consoles.
hmmm well if 10 years from now the faders in my X32 need to be replaced, I think I will just buy another board. As my total cost of ownership at that point was less than a dollar a day, and by then new technology will be around and I won't want to a 10 year old mixer anyway.

You are right AUX sends do trump groups, which is one of the reasons why the X32 beats Presonus hands down. The X32 supports the Behringer P16 which are fantastic for worship teams wanting to cut down on stage noise a real problem with mid sized churches. That 1,000 you save over the Presonus lets you buy 4 of them. Meaning your drummer, keyboard player, guitarist, and bass player can all go inear and can each be in control of his or her own mix. Then on the X32 you have 6 more AUX sends for whatever other monitor needs you may have.

The other advantage for mid sized churches is that since the Behringer personal mixers are so cheap and run off of standard CAT5e it is VERY easy to send audio feeds to other parts of the building. So your workers in the nursery can listen to the sermon. The team counting offering can do the same in their room. All you need to add is add some cheap powered monitor speakers and you have an easy setup that fits on any small shelf.

Or what if you want to create a simple separate mix for your internet streaming because the house feed just does not really work? Easy all you need is a $250 personal mixer.

I can also tell you from first hand experience that the Behringer Personal Mixers are MUCH MUCH better than the ones that Aviom makes at a MUCH cheaper cost. They sound better and are MUCH better built.

But hey what do I know, I have only run Audio in thousands of Church Services and Events
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #57
PDC
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike ➡️
hmmm well if 10 years from now the faders in my X32 need to be replaced, I think I will just buy another board. As my total cost of ownership at that point was less than a dollar a day, and by then new technology will be around and I won't want to a 10 year old mixer anyway.

You are right AUX sends do trump groups, which is one of the reasons why the X32 beats Presonus hands down. The X32 supports the Behringer P16 which are fantastic for worship teams wanting to cut down on stage noise a real problem with mid sized churches. That 1,000 you save over the Presonus lets you buy 4 of them. Meaning your drummer, keyboard player, guitarist, and bass player can all go inear and can each be in control of his or her own mix. Then on the X32 you have 6 more AUX sends for whatever other monitor needs you may have.

The other advantage for mid sized churches is that since the Behringer personal mixers are so cheap and run off of standard CAT5e it is VERY easy to send audio feeds to other parts of the building. So your workers in the nursery can listen to the sermon. The team counting offering can do the same in their room. All you need to add is add some cheap powered monitor speakers and you have an easy setup that fits on any small shelf.

Or what if you want to create a simple separate mix for your internet streaming because the house feed just does not really work? Easy all you need is a $250 personal mixer.

I can also tell you from first hand experience that the Behringer Personal Mixers are MUCH MUCH better than the ones that Aviom makes at a MUCH cheaper cost. They sound better and are MUCH better built.

But hey what do I know, I have only run Audio in thousands of Church Services and Events
Not to burst your bubble, but you cannot put your Behringer on the church network, just because it uses CAT5e (and it is not standard, it is shielded btw). You would have to have some AES50 interface on the other end, then an active speaker or amp with wall mounted volume control, etc. You also have a length limit on that cable, under 300'. We do this now with simple, cheap, 70V systems. THAT is how you save a church some money.

Perhaps you should read up on how things are done before arguing your point. The X32 only has 16 outputs for EVERYTHING, no inserts, no direct outs. Compared to the largest Studio live, which 14 aux outs, 4 sub outs, three master outs, inserts on inputs and outputs, PLUS direct outs and the mtr out to computer...the PreSonus smacks the X32 around. Plus the PreSonus has the A/B on channels, which is very cool.

The monitoring system is neither hear nor there, because people are not just going to throw away their existing Avioms, Hearbacks or whatever when they buy a new console. If they are starting from scratch, then they will buy. With the PreSonus, they don't actually need ANY mixers, when they can control it with iPads, iPhones, etc. Many churches are going paper free and using iPads on stands for sheet music. For the band, this kills two birds, gives them monitor control and sheet music + messaging on one device.

As for the P16 mixers being better than Aviom....maybe, maybe not. We will have to see how they hold up over time. You should compare the new Aviom360s to the new P16s. I think you will find both have plastic centered pots. The buttons on both will likely wear the same. I think Behringer REALLY screwed up, and everyone will in time as well, by not providing Ethercons on the back of the mixers. Those surface mount connectors will not hold up in time. Aviom fixed it on their 360.
Old 25th January 2013
  #58
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I sort of don't get the personal mixer - at least in their current form. Some people will love it, but the typical person will just want you to make that call for them or at the most have a "more me" function - nothing else. Not to bash Behringer, Allen & Heath just came out with their own version of this Aviom style concept and it has the same cluttered, overly confusing approach.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #59
Lives for gear
 
grasspike's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PDC ➡️
Not to burst your bubble, but you cannot put your Behringer on the church network, just because it uses CAT5e (and it is not standard, it is shielded btw). You would have to have some AES50 interface on the other end, then an active speaker or amp with wall mounted volume control, etc. You also have a length limit on that cable, under 300'. We do this now with simple, cheap, 70V systems. THAT is how you save a church some money.

Perhaps you should read up on how things are done before arguing your point.
All I can say is WOW!!! You really do not know what it is you speak of. The cool thing about the Behringer system is that it uses standard Cat5e cables they do NOT need to be shielded as long as you are not running them on top of power transformers etc. Liek any ethernet cable you can run them up to around 300 feet which is 100 yards. At that point you would need to install a $150 dollar Behringer Powerplay unit. This is basically a Cat5 Hub which boosts the signal and lets you then feed up to 8 personal mixers with it So you can run a single Cat5e up to 300 feet down a hallway to one end of your building over the Ceiling tiles and install the Powerplay in the ceiling or in a closet, then you can feed up to 8 rooms with their own mixers and monitors. I use MAudio powered monitors that cost $150 a piece for a total cost of $400 a room.

The beauty of this is that it sounds MUCH better than a 70 volt system since it stays all digital from the board to the room and each room can have the mix however they want it. You clearly have never run a 70 system with the same feed going to multiple rooms. If you had you would know what a NIGHTMARE sending the same mix to each room it. First you get the old guy counting money complaining that the guitar is too loud, then you turn it down on the 70v mix, then you get the young adults in the nursery saying they can't hear the drums enough and what happened to the guitar etc etc etc. The more you put the rooms in charge of what they hear the better. The other advantage of the Personal Mixer is that you can also use it with headphone if you wish, something you can't do with 70v systems. The other issue with 70v systems is that they LOVE to pick up 60 cycle hum,.

Unless you are buying total garbage 70v amps this system with the Behringer personal mixers would come in cheaper or about the same as your installed 70v system and has tremendous benefits over it


Quote:
As for the P16 mixers being better than Aviom....maybe, maybe not. We will have to see how they hold up over time. You should compare the new Aviom360s to the new P16s. I think you will find both have plastic centered pots. The buttons on both will likely wear the same. I think Behringer REALLY screwed up, and everyone will in time as well, by not providing Ethercons on the back of the mixers. Those surface mount connectors will not hold up in time. Aviom fixed it on their 360.
The thing is I have LOTS of experience in the real world with Aviom and I know what total pieces of crap they are. I also know that they cost about 2-3X as much or more than the Behringer ones do. I have a grave yard of broken Aviom A-16iis sitting in my workshop. That costs $600+ dollars to replace, or I can buy a behringer for $250? Need a hub? The Aviom hub costs $489 the Behringer costs $150 and the Behringer is much better in build quality than the A-16ii

Even if the new Avioms are built like tanks, unless they cost WAY less than the Behringer ones they are still not a better value

Nice try, thanks for playing, you clearly need to study more on the products you sell. Unless of your course all you care about is "PROTECTION" of your profits
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #60
Lives for gear
 
ddageek's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasspike ➡️
hmmm well if 10 years from now the faders in my X32 need to be replaced, I think I will just buy another board. As my total cost of ownership at that point was less than a dollar a day, and by then new technology will be around and I won't want to a 10 year old mixer anyway.

You are right AUX sends do trump groups, which is one of the reasons why the X32 beats Presonus hands down. The X32 supports the Behringer P16 which are fantastic for worship teams wanting to cut down on stage noise a real problem with mid sized churches. That 1,000 you save over the Presonus lets you buy 4 of them. Meaning your drummer, keyboard player, guitarist, and bass player can all go inear and can each be in control of his or her own mix. Then on the X32 you have 6 more AUX sends for whatever other monitor needs you may have.

The other advantage for mid sized churches is that since the Behringer personal mixers are so cheap and run off of standard CAT5e it is VERY easy to send audio feeds to other parts of the building. So your workers in the nursery can listen to the sermon. The team counting offering can do the same in their room. All you need to add is add some cheap powered monitor speakers and you have an easy setup that fits on any small shelf.

Or what if you want to create a simple separate mix for your internet streaming because the house feed just does not really work? Easy all you need is a $250 personal mixer.

I can also tell you from first hand experience that the Behringer Personal Mixers are MUCH MUCH better than the ones that Aviom makes at a MUCH cheaper cost. They sound better and are MUCH better built.

But hey what do I know, I have only run Audio in thousands of Church Services and Events

Most churches about 90% only want a simple system with enough monitor mixes to get by. Simple is best for most, and as a system planer / designer and you ask how long before they want to upgrade replace it you will hear
"never" "well real world 20 years" This is why digital has always scared me for this market, and why for years a simple Bogen mixer and colums dominated!
Simple first, 90% want hi tech and 80% of them are scared of it.

Having worked in almost every live situation I got smart enough to realize selling meant better money and hours, forget the fact that I was one of the top salespeople at one of the largest pro audio dealers in the country, and concentrate on the fact the owner once said that I knew more about what we did than anyone else.

PDC and I are not saying the Behringer is bad , just that for the needs of most it would fit better!
The job of a system designer is not to think about how he would do it , but what will work and please the customer today tomorrow and years from now!
For most of the Church market thats the Presonous !
I like the Behringer , I would rather mix on one but that isn't what my old clients would want , and I know because A couple have bought them from my old employer and have contacted me about training!
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