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Vienna Dimension Strings...
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #61
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oceantracks's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
For me it means all the things that VSL has now added with this library to give back what was never there in the original library....such as ability to vary tunings and vibrato. All the things a live string section has, all the things that got VSL the rep for being cold and sterile.

There were so many complaints about this originally that VSL finally had to come with the appassionata strings to please many people, just as they had to come out with another oboe (or was it English Horn) as they had sampled it without any vibrato.

So now with this library they have not only added what should have been there in the first place, but have given users control over it, which I think it is pretty amazing.
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #62
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo ➑️
Can you define "personality" as it relates to string libraries? I don't know what that means.
Well this really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks ➑️
For me it means all the things that VSL has now added with this library to give back what was never there in the original library....such as ability to vary tunings and vibrato. All the things a live string section has, all the things that got VSL the rep for being cold and sterile.

There were so many complaints about this originally that VSL finally had to come with the appassionata strings to please many people, just as they had to come out with another oboe (or was it English Horn) as they had sampled it without any vibrato.

So now with this library they have not only added what should have been there in the first place, but have given users control over it, which I think it is pretty amazing.

When VSL first arrived, they were just off the chart - they brought us into a new world and in some ways they were head and shoulders above previous libraries.

However I never warmed to them, I felt they lacked 'personality' 'vibe' 'atmosphere' - the kind of qualities that made you want to keep playing them, that inspired you to get emotional. To me they were clean, clinical and yes, sterile. I was somewhat relieved when others noted the same reservations as I felt that it must just be me...

LASS changed all that.

I have just downloaded a free Cello library:

https://gearspace.com/board/new-prod...t-4-2-3-a.html

It's so 'home-made' and cannot compare with the heavy duty features of alternative pro offerings... yet it is absolutely fantastic. I have fallen in love with it.

If VSL could get that kind of vibe with all their killer features I might finally be won over to them.
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #63
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oceantracks's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw ➑️
Well this really.




When VSL first arrived, they were just off the chart - they brought us into a new world and in some ways they were head and shoulders above previous libraries.

However I never warmed to them, I felt they lacked 'personality' 'vibe' 'atmosphere' - the kind of qualities that made you want to keep playing them, that inspired you to get emotional. To me they were clean, clinical and yes, sterile. I was was somewhat relieved when others noted the same reservations as I felt that it must just be me...

LASS changed all that.

I have just downloaded a free Cello library:

https://gearspace.com/board/new-prod...t-4-2-3-a.html

It's so 'home-made' and cannot compare with heavy the duty features of alternative pro offerings... yet it is absolutely fantastic. I have fallen in love with it.

If VSL could get that kind of vibe with all their killer features I might finally be won over to them.
Agreed. And agreed on LASS. It came with tuning problems that actually helped the sections sound more alive

Will have to check out that freebie cello!

TH
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #64
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feck's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
There are tuning problems in LASS that make certain notes unplayable to me. But here is the thing - with VI Pro 2, the INSANE amount of customization/randomization you have with tuning AND timing make it way more useful than anything else out there. You can leave the intonation as is and have a pretty perfect sounding performance, or you can mangle it to the point of a high school band. Watch the tutorial video on randomization. It is nothing short of revolutionary. The more I get into the power of the VI player, the more it becomes clear to me how much I have been missing out on.
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #65
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oceantracks's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by feck ➑️
There are tuning problems in LASS that make certain notes unplayable to me. But here is the thing - with VI Pro 2, the INSANE amount of customization/randomization you have with tuning AND timing make it way more useful than anything else out there. You can leave the intonation as is and have a pretty perfect sounding performance, or you can mangle it to the point of a high school band. Watch the tutorial video on randomization. It is nothing short of revolutionary. The more I get into the power of the VI player, the more it becomes clear to me how much I have been missing out on.
True about Lass, and it's a shame because the overall tone and ambience of the library I much prefer over VSL and day of the week, especially for legato work and broad lines in all sections of the strings.

The tools you mention in this new VI library sound pretty wonderful!
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #66
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muziksculp's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I wonder if VSL has future plans to license their player 'VIPro' to third-party developers ?

imho. that would be a great move, and would take away some of the monopoly NI.Kontakt has on this market.
Old 4th October 2012
  #67
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Sami Matar's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I love the concept of DS, but I'm very unimpressed with the end result. Like it was mentioned above, cold and sterile.
Old 4th October 2012 | Show parent
  #68
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feck's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Not sure if you are saying that based on using them or merely the demos, but the more I use them, the more I disagree with that. In fact I would say they are among the most expressive, emotional violins I have. Right there with 8dio Adagio. Isn't the music supposed to be the main emotional component anyhow?
Old 4th October 2012 | Show parent
  #69
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jjdpro's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I don't know about that. LA Scoring strings lib, Cinematic String lib.. Kirk Hunter Hollywood strings are just as good or even, better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus ➑️
Sounds great to me. And VSL probably have the best most innovative sample player on the market too.
Old 4th October 2012 | Show parent
  #70
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feck's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
When it comes to playability, LASS and Cinematic are pretty great. But with depth of features and unique features, there is no question - VSL is way ahead of them. Especially with VI Pro 2.
Old 4th October 2012 | Show parent
  #71
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jjdpro's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
That's what I thought as well..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sami Matar ➑️
I love the concept of DS, but I'm very unimpressed with the end result. Like it was mentioned above, cold and sterile.
Old 4th October 2012 | Show parent
  #72
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jjdpro's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Just pretty Great??

Quote:
Originally Posted by feck ➑️
When it comes to playability, LASS and Cinematic are pretty great. But with depth of features and unique features, there is no question - VSL is way ahead of them. Especially with VI Pro 2.
Old 4th October 2012 | Show parent
  #73
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feck's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjdpro ➑️
Just pretty Great??
There is always room for improvement. Tuning issues with LASS, lack of individual/smaller desks with Cinematic keep them from being as great as I would personally prefer. Among other things, but those are the bullet points for me. General instrument control with VI Pro 2 is another level. But, it's thing is that you really have to dig into the weeds to get control of it. Regarding the idea of "sterile" samples - I don't quite understand what it is people are looking for. Is it a lack of fidelity? A lack of accuracy in pitch or timing? A significant discrepancy with vibrato amounts or onset/offset? A less-than-ideal recording environment? All of those things are pretty easily adjusted either within the VI player, or with plugins. At this point, having pristine, accurately played articulations is the pinnacle every high end set should strive for, in my opinion. I don't want to be forced into having to overcompensate for a lack of attention to detail in the recording process, since I wasn't there when it occurred. Rather than spending my time figuring out how to workaround problematic articulations, I would much rather learn how to work creatively and effectively with a multitude of articulations which do exactly what they are described as doing. Maybe that's just me.
Old 4th October 2012
  #74
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🎧 10 years
I think it might be a discussion of style and genre too... So what style do you want?
Old 5th October 2012
  #75
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkyGoldstein ➑️
I think it might be a discussion of style and genre too... So what style do you want?
I think you have the issue there.

I particular enjoy the Blakus Cello because it is 'overly' emotional or should I say 'stylised'. I totally get what Feck is saying about the features and versatile function of VSL

Quote:
Originally Posted by feck ➑️
Isn't the music supposed to be the main emotional component anyhow?
Yes and no - try giving a mediocre flat sounding (tonally boring) violin to a great musician and then ask them to get inspired to play their best performance with it...

Not saying that VSL instruments are no good - they can sound a bit plain Jane to me.


If VSL brought out let's say for example, a 'Jaqueline Du Pre style Cello set' - deep, emotive, with options for heavy vibrato and raw bowing etc etc and combined this with their industry leading player.... Well - I would be in heaven!
Old 5th October 2012
  #76
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elambo's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Seems that we have two people who have used the product and several others (who use other libraries) with no experience with the product. Can we make an observation about the fact that the two people who own it are entirely impressed by it and the others are repeatedly posting their disinterest?
Old 5th October 2012 | Show parent
  #77
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feck's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw ➑️
I think you have the issue there.

I particular enjoy the Blakus Cello because it is 'overly' emotional or should I say 'stylised'. I totally get what Feck is saying about the features and versatile function of VSL



Yes and no - try giving a mediocre flat sounding (tonally boring) violin to a great musician and then ask them to get inspired to play their best performance with it...

Not saying that VSL instruments are no good - they can sound a bit plain Jane to me.


If VSL brought out let's say for example, a 'Jaqueline Du Pre style Cello set' - deep, emotive, with options for heavy vibrato and raw bowing etc etc and combined this with their industry leading player.... Well - I would be in heaven!
That's cool, everybody has different needs. I, for a while, went on a quest to find as many "imperfect" sample sets as I could, since just a few notes with a really cool, vibe-y thing like that can be very inspiring. Which I still find true. However, the more I used those kinds of samples, the more I found myself frustrated when the imperfections kept repeating, and getting in the way of the performance as I imagined it. Then, I swung back the other way towards meticulous samples, since I much less often crave the imperfections than I do the perfect performance - in time, accurately pitched, and round robins that are trimmed enough to where I don't have to hope that a "wrong" one occurs during an offline bounce. So if I want something to be less than professionally played, I can mangle it in any number of ways. But, I will say it again - with the insane amount of articulations/variations in Dimension violins, PLUS the insane amount of variety with tuning, timing, and layering of the 8 individual violins, it is very easy to make a performance sound anywhere between absolutely pro and pretty much unusably amateur. I am surprised at the amount of control, especially since I have owned Special Edition for 4 years and have never made the time to learn how to use the damn player properly. But now that I have, I can say that Vienna Instruments definitely knows what they are doing.
Old 5th October 2012 | Show parent
  #78
Gear Guru
 
Animus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by feck ➑️
There is always room for improvement. Tuning issues with LASS, lack of individual/smaller desks with Cinematic keep them from being as great as I would personally prefer. Among other things, but those are the bullet points for me. General instrument control with VI Pro 2 is another level. But, it's thing is that you really have to dig into the weeds to get control of it. Regarding the idea of "sterile" samples - I don't quite understand what it is people are looking for. Is it a lack of fidelity? A lack of accuracy in pitch or timing? A significant discrepancy with vibrato amounts or onset/offset? A less-than-ideal recording environment? All of those things are pretty easily adjusted either within the VI player, or with plugins. At this point, having pristine, accurately played articulations is the pinnacle every high end set should strive for, in my opinion. I don't want to be forced into having to overcompensate for a lack of attention to detail in the recording process, since I wasn't there when it occurred. Rather than spending my time figuring out how to workaround problematic articulations, I would much rather learn how to work creatively and effectively with a multitude of articulations which do exactly what they are described as doing. Maybe that's just me.


I think they are mostly responding to their "Silent Stage" technique of very dry samples. They are not load and play type instrumen†s and take work to make them sound like you want; very flexible in that regard but you have to have the patience and know-how. VSL's biggest attraction is just the sheer amount of articulations; you can do stuff with their libraries that nothing else can do. And VI Pro is just the best sample player out there.
Old 5th October 2012 | Show parent
  #79
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feck's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yeah, I suppose so. LASS is really dry to me also - but I always add a healthy amount of reverb to strings, I just love that sound. So dry doesn't bother me, it's a lot easier to add than subtract ambience. That's where the M7 comes in handy.... (or B2, Lex PCM bundle, Aether, TSAR, etc.....)
Old 5th October 2012
  #80
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sonicdefault's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
^
feck are you using VDS with MIR? I was wondering how well it implements without it. I suppose you use Ensemble Pro, right? I own VIP and VEP but I don't have MIR yet.

elambo, if you read this, I'd be interested in your thoughts too. Has anyone compared using VDS both with and without the MIR desk setups?


-SD
Old 5th October 2012 | Show parent
  #81
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feck's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicdefault ➑️
^
feck are you using VDS with MIR? I was wondering how well it implements without it. I suppose you use Ensemble Pro, right? I own VIP and VEP but I don't have MIR yet.

elambo, if you read this, I'd be interested in your thoughts too. Has anyone compared using VDS both with and without the MIR desk setups?


-SD
I do not own MIR - I demo'ed it a while ago but don't have it now. Mainly I use B2, Lex PCM bundle, Aether, TSAR, VSL Hybrid or my M7 depending on what else I have happening in the project. I do have VE Pro though, which is awesome since I can use a bunch of RAM outside of the DAW with it. I am thinking of giving MIR another go though, to see how it works with these strings.
Old 5th October 2012
  #82
Gear Guru
 
elambo's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I tried MIR and liked it but didn't feel that it was necessary, primarily because we already have so many reverbs but also because I didn't want it eating up the CPU. Now with a faster computer we might not have that concern anymore.

While not perfect for every job the default hall within Ensemble is impressive. From what I understand, MIR has an advantage because it allows more accurate placement of individual instruments within the sound field for an extra level of realism.
Old 5th October 2012 | Show parent
  #83
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oceantracks's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo ➑️
Seems that we have two people who have used the product and several others (who use other libraries) with no experience with the product. Can we make an observation about the fact that the two people who own it are entirely impressed by it and the others are repeatedly posting their disinterest?
True, my only experience is hearing their demos, which in all other cases from
drum libraries to competing string libraries, have been sufficient to make a judgement of the tonal quality of the samples. That's why they make the demos.
Old 5th October 2012
  #84
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Sami Matar's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I've heard the demos only, I'm not a user.

Exactly what OceanTracks said.
Old 5th October 2012
  #85
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🎧 10 years
To me the demos remind me of 70ties TV
Old 5th October 2012 | Show parent
  #86
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feck's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
They could do some better demos for sure. But, I think we all know, when using tools with this many choices and parameters, the quality of the final piece relies greatly on the skill of the composer and programmer. I don't think anyone can argue the historical quality of recordings that VSL has imparted in their sample sets. How those get used, however, is a different story. I, for one, and loving these and using them in my pieces already. So it was a worthwhile purchase for me.
Old 5th October 2012 | Show parent
  #87
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oceantracks's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by feck ➑️
They could do some better demos for sure. But, I think we all know, when using tools with this many choices and parameters, the quality of the final piece relies greatly on the skill of the composer and programmer. I don't think anyone can argue the historical quality of recordings that VSL has imparted in their sample sets. How those get used, however, is a different story. I, for one, and loving these and using them in my pieces already. So it was a worthwhile purchase for me.
And that's what I said many posts ago, everyone hears things differently, and if they work for you, that's certainly the most important thing.
Old 6th October 2012 | Show parent
  #88
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elambo's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
With such an intense variety of sounds included within this library, the single audio demo represents a small percentage of what's possible. In fact I wouldn't say that the demo comes close to capturing the essence of this library. So it's not possible to hear that MP3 and think, "yep, I get it." What you get from listening is Christian's demo but you don't get the library. This is unfortunate since they don't seem to offer a working demo just yet.

I'd even say that their demo feels rushed. I'm able to achieve that level with minimal programming but with proper tweaking and mixing it gets better. Over time, we'll see more demos which help show it off. I suspect that they're busy with the viola, cello and bass supplements.
Old 6th October 2012
  #89
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🎧 10 years
It's strings only isn't it? The demos are quite ok to my ear and I think when the library grows the sounds will get richer
Old 6th October 2012 | Show parent
  #90
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sonicdefault's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by feck ➑️
I do not own MIR - I demo'ed it a while ago but don't have it now. Mainly I use B2, Lex PCM bundle, Aether, TSAR, VSL Hybrid or my M7 depending on what else I have happening in the project. I do have VE Pro though, which is awesome since I can use a bunch of RAM outside of the DAW with it. I am thinking of giving MIR another go though, to see how it works with these strings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo ➑️
I tried MIR and liked it but didn't feel that it was necessary, primarily because we already have so many reverbs but also because I didn't want it eating up the CPU. Now with a faster computer we might not have that concern anymore.

While not perfect for every job the default hall within Ensemble is impressive. From what I understand, MIR has an advantage because it allows more accurate placement of individual instruments within the sound field for an extra level of realism.
Thanks for the responses guys. After seeing the video, I wondered if the included MIR desks actually mirrored how they had the players arranged on the stage. It's good to know it works well without MIR, because like you inferred, I haven't yet felt the need for it when considering the cost/performance.

I do use the VSL convolution though. It's awesome. I wish they'd include MIR in their Vienna Suite and give us an upgrade option.

-SD
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