Quantcast
PSP Audioware Squad EQ Bundle - Page 11 - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
PSP Audioware Squad EQ Bundle
Old 10th January 2010 | Show parent
  #301
Lives for gear
 
Coyoteous's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
SIM and SAT are nice, but here's the aliasing they cause at 44.1:
Attached Files

alias.wav (1.27 MB, 261 views)

Old 10th January 2010 | Show parent
  #302
Lives for gear
 
sonicdefault's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyoteous ➑️
SIM and SAT are nice, but here's the aliasing they cause at 44.1:
Seems to become most audible @2K and up


-SD
Old 10th January 2010 | Show parent
  #303
Lives for gear
 
poshook's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyoteous ➑️
SIM and SAT are nice, but here's the aliasing they cause at 44.1:
did you try the same without SIM and SAT?
Old 10th January 2010 | Show parent
  #304
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by scanner ➑️
Has anyone installed this ?

I was using v.1.5.1b happily yesterday...

Now I'm getting a:

! "Fatal Error" - An unknown executable could not be loaded.

message when I try and instantiate any EQ.

Tried to install twice now.

I'm on a mac pro 8/2.8, OSX 10.5.8 , PT LE 8.0.3

I'll drop PSP an email.

UPDATE: Gone back to V.1.5.1b and everything's fine again.

Hi,

I'm in the middle of doing Session work so it's impossible for me to contact PSP right now. I can confirm that this is happening with the AU version on these Set Ups:


Primary Computer Set Up- PowerMac G5 DualCore 2.3 (PPC), 8GB Ram, Tiger 10.4.11, Seagate Barracuda SATA II 1 TB Secondary Internal HD (7200 RPM), OWC Mercury Elite Pro Classic 160 GB Firewire Audio HD (7200 RPM), 3 UAD-1e Cards, Apple 20-inch Cinema Display

Secondary Computer Set Up- Powerbook 1.33 17" (PPC), 2GB RAM, Tiger 10.4.11

Applications:

Digidesign- Pro Tools LE (7.4cs10)

Apple- Logic Pro (7.2.3), WaveBurner (1.2), Soundtrack Pro (1.0.3)

Ableton- Live (5.2.2)

Propellerhead- Reason (3.0.5)

Bias- Peak Pro (5.2.1)

Iced Audio- AudioFinder (4.9.3)

Hope this helps & good luck!

-Iz
Old 10th January 2010 | Show parent
  #305
Lives for gear
 
Coyoteous's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicdefault ➑️
Seems to become most audible @2K and up - SD
Indeed... could have started the sweep higher, but this gives an idea of the tone low to high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poshook ➑️
did you try the same without SIM and SAT?
Yes... no detectable aliasing without SIMulation and SATuration.
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #306
Lives for gear
 
Kenton's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Signalscope confirms aliasing at 44.1k.

For example, a 17k tone @-6dBFS generates a -40dB alias at 10.1k with SIM engaged. Above -6dB you start getting other aliases at lower frequencies too.

One of the hazards of using saturation plugins at 44.1k I guess...
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #307
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Aside from The Glue, it's the best $99 I have ever spent on a plug-in!
Yes, a little cpu hungry and I wish they made a TDM version, but I can live with it. Sweet top, tight bottom...like a beautiful woman...but I regress.
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #308
Lives for gear
 
Beyersound's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenton ➑️
Signalscope confirms aliasing at 44.1k.

For example, a 17k tone @-6dBFS generates a -40dB alias at 10.1k with SIM engaged. Above -6dB you start getting other aliases at lower frequencies too.

One of the hazards of using saturation plugins at 44.1k I guess...
Aliasing? Isn't the idea of saturation to add harmonics? Please enlighten us on what constitutes "unwanted aliasing" to you, as opposed to the harmonic content that many people seek.
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #309
Lives for gear
 
Coyoteous's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Alias tones are non-harmonic... folded back from the sampling frequency. They bear no direct musical relationship to the source. That doesn't mean they might not be okay, or even unnoticeable. They might, by chance, sound better or worse with certain notes, timbres, chords or keys.

To be fair, I tested everything I have that can generate saturation/harmonics the other night, except guitar amp type plug-ins. All of them produced aliasing: Sonnox Inflator and Dynamics (Warmth section), IK Pultec and Fairchild, sQuad and oldTimer, etc. I don't have URS or UAD.

At least you can turn off the saturation/harmonics in these PSP plug-ins. Now, some of these plug-ins were markedly better at higher sample rates: 96 and 192, but some weren't that much better. Unfortunately, sQuad was in the latter category. BTW, this is all preliminary testing.
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #310
Lives for gear
 
Beyersound's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyoteous ➑️
Alias tones are non-harmonic... folded back from the sampling frequency. They bear no direct musical relationship to the source. That doesn't mean they might not be okay, or even unnoticeable. They might, by chance, sound better or worse with certain notes, timbres, chords or keys.

To be fair, I tested everything I have that can generate saturation/harmonics the other night, except guitar amp type plug-ins. All of them produced aliasing: Sonnox Inflator and Dynamics (Warmth section), IK Pultec and Fairchild, sQuad and oldTimer, etc. I don't have URS or UAD.

At least you can turn off the saturation/harmonics in these PSP plug-ins. Now, some of these plug-ins were markedly better at higher sample rates: 96 and 192, but some weren't that much better. Unfortunately, sQuad was in the latter category. BTW, this is all preliminary testing.
Excellent explanation, nice post. That was what I was hoping you would say, too much BS on GS many times. Not sure if single test tones are really the best way to evaluate this, broadband noise might be a better way to judge, but maybe tougher to resolve on the test equipment. That plugin would not normally see a tone like that in it normal duties, and not at that amplitude. Cheers
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #311
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by izzi ➑️
Hi,

I'm in the middle of doing Session work so it's impossible for me to contact PSP right now. I can confirm that this is happening with the AU version on these Set Ups:

-Iz
Please do not make the update to 1.5.1c during session.
This update is prepared for ProTools users because 1.5.1 and 1.5.1b broke backward compatibility. The 1.5.1c has no compatible session settings with the 1.5.1 and 1.5.1b so updating in the middle of job make force you to spend extra time on readjusting controls.

The most of PSP stuff is going to US for the NAMM show so please forgive us a bit of lag time in response.

If any of you still meet the problem with the 1.5.1c iLok installer please try to redownload this installer from our server. We double check the installation 1.5.1c over the 1.5.1b and we cannot reproduce such a problem.

Regards,

Mat
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #312
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
sQuad and aliasing

The aliasing in sQuad is a typical problem of saturation in digital domain. The sQuad is using a second generation of our SATuration algorithm with softer sound and reduced aliasing compared to SAT used in our previous plug-ins. We could further reduce the aliasing but it would double the latency time of those plug-ins.

Regards,

Mat
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #313
Lives for gear
 
Marando's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by matpsp ➑️
The aliasing in sQuad is a typical problem of saturation in digital domain. The sQuad is using a second generation of our SATuration algorithm with softer sound and reduced aliasing compared to SAT used in our previous plug-ins. We could further reduce the aliasing but it would double the latency time of those plug-ins.

Regards,

Mat
Perhaps an idea to give the user the option to have lower aliasing/more latency? I just love the HQ buttons on plugins! heh
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #314
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marando ➑️
Perhaps an idea to give the user the option to have lower aliasing/more latency? I just love the HQ buttons on plugins! heh
Unfortunately it is not that simple. There are still hosts which cannot properly adapt to dynamically changed plug-in's latency.
However - the SAT and SIM algorithms in the sQuad have reduced aliasing which in most cases result in good sound.

By the way we just solved the ClassicQ/ClassicQex AutoQ button bug reported on KVR sQuad thread. This fix will be published in 1.5.2 update.

Best,

Mat
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #315
Lives for gear
 
Kenton's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
It seems to me that the one way to get rid of aliasing in Sat Plugs at 44.1k would be to bandlimit the input signal to 8kHz (or thereabouts - 3rd Harmonic would be at 24k and alias/sideband at 20.1k) before the waveshaping operation and then adding back in the frequencies above 8k with a High Pass from the source.

I have a second solution too that involves 3 parallel paths too - one original, one bandlimited at 8k then saturated, one bandlimited at 8k and phase inverted.

Clipping your final mix also produces aliasing - oversampling seems to help here though (8x upsampling in Voxengo Elephant on Clip seems to reduce aliasing significantly).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beyersound ➑️
too much BS on GS many times.
Absolutely right.

K.
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #316
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenton ➑️
It seems to me that the one way to get rid of aliasing in Sat Plugs at 44.1k would be to bandlimit the input signal to 8kHz (or thereabouts - 3rd Harmonic would be at 24k and alias/sideband at 20.1k) before the waveshaping operation and then adding back in the frequencies above 8k with a High Pass from the source.

I have a second solution too that involves 3 parallel paths too - one original, one bandlimited at 8k then saturated, one bandlimited at 8k and phase inverted.

Clipping your final mix also produces aliasing - oversampling seems to help here though (8x upsampling in Voxengo Elephant on Clip seems to reduce aliasing significantly).



Absolutely right.

K.
The example file with the aliasing shows how aliased harmonics fall off. You can see that we already use some filtering to reduce that aliasing. Further reduction is possible but require both longer latency and much more CPU to provide really noticeable improvement. Please notice that all those technics reduce but not deal completely with the aliasing - even with 8 times oversampling you can still observe that the aliasing occurs - it is just at lower levels.
In the sQuad plug-ins SIM and SAT are optional algorithms so we decided that making them really heavy doesn't make much sense.

Best,

Mat
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #317
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Hi matpsp and all.

Can somebody let me know if they have sQUAD 1.5.1c working on Pro Tools LE 8.0.3 on OSX 10.5.8

I'm getting the message:

"Fatal Error" - An unknown executable could not be loaded.

It would be good to find out if it's just my setup.

VST and AU are working fine in Reaper though.

EDIT: I took matpsp's advise and installed using the serial authorisation version.

V1.5.1c is now working in pro tools for me
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #318
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by scanner ➑️
Hi matpsp and all.

Can somebody let me know if they have sQUAD 1.5.1c working on Pro Tools LE 8.0.3 on OSX 10.5.8

I'm getting the message:

"Fatal Error" - An unknown executable could not be loaded.

It would be good to find out if it's just my setup.

VST and AU are working fine in Reaper though.

EDIT: I took matpsp's advise and installed using the serial authorisation version.

V1.5.1c is now working in pro tools for me
Hey Scanner,

Got your PM. Thanks for keeping me in the loop! Glad U got your situation worked out!

I sent an email to PSP support regarding this problem in Peak.

Unfortunately, I'm on the road with my iLok(s) so the serial authorization is not an option for me but I can use the VST versions of sQUAD 1.5.1c in Peak so it's not that big of a deal.

Thanks again!
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #319
Lives for gear
 
sonicdefault's Avatar
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by matpsp ➑️
The example file with the aliasing shows how aliased harmonics fall off. You can see that we already use some filtering to reduce that aliasing. Further reduction is possible but require both longer latency and much more CPU to provide really noticeable improvement. Please notice that all those technics reduce but not deal completely with the aliasing - even with 8 times oversampling you can still observe that the aliasing occurs - it is just at lower levels.
In the sQuad plug-ins SIM and SAT are optional algorithms so we decided that making them really heavy doesn't make much sense.

Best,

Mat
Thanks for being a part of the discussion. I wish more companies would talk openly about their products like this.


-SD
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #320
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyoteous ➑️

To be fair, I tested everything I have that can generate saturation/harmonics the other night, except guitar amp type plug-ins. All of them produced aliasing: Sonnox Inflator and Dynamics (Warmth section), IK Pultec and Fairchild, sQuad and oldTimer, etc. I don't have URS or UAD.

At least you can turn off the saturation/harmonics in these PSP plug-ins. Now, some of these plug-ins were markedly better at higher sample rates: 96 and 192, but some weren't that much better. Unfortunately, sQuad was in the latter category. BTW, this is all preliminary testing.
The relatively small difference in aliasing between 44.1 and higher rates with sQuad may be due to the plugin's automatic internal upsampling to 88.2 - when the system is running at 44.1. In other words, the comparison is really 88.2 vs. 96 and 192.
Also, I wonder if some of the saturation equations have a faster high frequency harmonic decay, which I think would translate into greater improvement when working at higher sampling rates.
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #321
Gear Guru
 
matt thomas's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by izzi ➑️
Hey Scanner,

Got your PM. Thanks for keeping me in the loop! Glad U got your situation worked out!

I sent an email to PSP support regarding this problem in Peak.

Unfortunately, I'm on the road with my iLok(s) so the serial authorization is not an option for me but I can use the VST versions of sQUAD 1.5.1c in Peak so it's not that big of a deal.

Thanks again!
I hope they get this fixed for RTAS asap as I'm loving them and I'll be wanting to use these in another studio (with my ilok) in a couple of weeks..

matt
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #322
Lives for gear
 
poshook's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
is any1 here with non-working HPF on RetroQ (Logic9)?
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #323
Lives for gear
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
I'm not able to listen to the file, but can someone explain the alias thing and how it would affect mixing/sound?
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #324
Lives for gear
 
digital 1010's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by poshook ➑️
is any1 here with non-working HPF on RetroQ (Logic9)?
you need click to the word HPF mate and it will become active
Old 11th January 2010 | Show parent
  #325
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Here's the error message I'm getting in Peak when using the AU version...


Bias Peak Pro (5.2.1)

PowerMac G5 DualCore 2.3 (PPC) with 8GB of RAM, Tiger 10.4.11,
Digidesign Digi 002 (Console)
Old 12th January 2010 | Show parent
  #326
Lives for gear
 
Kenton's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldsnow ➑️
I'm not able to listen to the file, but can someone explain the alias thing and how it would affect mixing/sound?
This is how I understand it.

As a for example:

Take a 13k tone and put it through a saturation plugin - the 3rd harmonic generated by the plugin will be at 39k.

Now what happens is you get sum and difference frequencies between the sample rate frequency and the harmonic : 44.1k - 39k = 5.1k (also 44.1k+39k=83.1k but you won't hear that...)

So you get a 5.1k tone which will be around -40dB below the signal. This will probably be audible.

(The 7th harmonic of 6.3k is 44.1k which will give DC, but drop 50Hz to 6.25k you'll get 350Hz. It's not random but the results sound like it.)

Alias frequencies are particularly objectionable because they aren't harmonically related to the original signal. The results are a bit like playing through a ring modulator - atonal and unpredictable.

In practice, when mixing a track through a sat plug to get some pretense of analog mixing, any aliasing should be masked by the main bulk of the signal.
However, the more you crank the high end in your mix with EQ or unfeasibly loud hihats, the more aliasing you'll get.
It might not be immediately obvious but you might wonder why your track sounds so harsh and unpleasant and why no amount of EQing gets rid of it.

In the "good old days" before DSP took off, input would be restricted to half the sample frequency in order to prevent aliasing - but now we can generate and alter sounds in the digital domain, there's no limit to the havoc we can create inadvertently.

One day we'll all be working at 96k or above and it won't be an issue anymore...(?)

Oh God, I want to kill myself...
Old 12th January 2010 | Show parent
  #327
Lives for gear
 
Coyoteous's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by izzi ➑️
Here's the error message I'm getting in Peak when using the AU version...


Bias Peak Pro (5.2.1)

PowerMac G5 DualCore 2.3 (PPC) with 8GB of RAM, Tiger 10.4.11,
Digidesign Digi 002 (Console)
That's the error I got in Peak 6 and Wave Editor from the "c" installer... went back and did a full install with "b," and then just RTAS from "c." That seemed to make everything work for me.
Old 12th January 2010 | Show parent
  #328
Lives for gear
 
zimv20's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by matpsp ➑️
Please do not make the update to 1.5.1c during session.
Mat --

i've upgraded to the 1.5.1c version, serial, and still have the display problem with the "doubling up" of the image.

setup:
- PTLE 7.3.1
- mac osx 10.4.11
- powermac g5 2x2.0 GHz
- 8 gig RAM

see post #174 for the attached image.
Old 12th January 2010 | Show parent
  #329
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Hello,

As I wrote this jumping down GUI in PT 7.4 fix will be fixed in 1.5.2 version. We are still waiting for some details to complete the installer.

Regards,

Mat
Old 12th January 2010 | Show parent
  #330
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by poshook ➑️
is any1 here with non-working HPF on RetroQ (Logic9)?
You just need to turn it on - click on the greyed HPF label.
πŸ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 78 views: 16777
Avatar for andy-cytomic
andy-cytomic 8th February 2013
replies: 20 views: 3603
Avatar for Lee702
Lee702 25th June 2011
replies: 46 views: 1008
Avatar for LFO8
LFO8 4th October 2014
replies: 2 views: 1427
Avatar for Pro5
Pro5 7th January 2018
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump