Quantcast
Alicia Keys Piano - Page 18 - Gearspace.com
The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Alicia Keys Piano
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #511
Gear Nut
 
Mr.Scarbee's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_j ➑️
3. latency knob at 0% (but this time sustained - pedal down): I got about 30 ms latency (peak at around 31-34 ms)!!!
3. latency knob at 100% (again sustained - pedal down): I got about 30 ms latency (peak at around 31-34 ms) again!!!
Guys.... we just found this bug. The pedal down groups seems to have cc#1 to control latency and not CC#110. That explains the problems!!!

THANKS a lot...

If you have Kontakt you can try this:

Open editor and select a PD group.
Click on SOURCE - MOD flag.
Look at midi CC - it says 1. It should be 110.

there are 8 PD groups -all has to be changed this way.

To add the extra 2ms latency cut try this:

click EDIT All groups
Click on SOURCE - MOD flag.
Look at midi CC 110
Move slider so it displays 59,8%

we will fix this in the update.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #512
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Scarbee ➑️
I don't know what to say.

If I set latency knob at full right it is at foot of peak and can only be 2ms shorter.

You talk about 36 ms - that sounds strange to me.
Hi Thomas,

nice that you drop by. Please have a look at my second image. The knob seems to work fine. The sample is clipped right at the bottom of the peak as you say, when set to low latency (bottom waveform). But there is an additional delay of 12ms with no content besides that strange square feature. I am sure, nobody is expecting you to clip into the peak, since it wouldn't improve latency noticably. If we get rid of the extra 12ms, everybody will be happy. This must be a latency you were not aware of so far. Is it possible that you don't experience it on your installation? It would be great, if you could do this mixdown test yourself, to see if we are talking about the same. I am positive, the people complaining about latency are talking about that order of magnitude in latency (12ms) not improvements of 2ms. Something else seems to be wrong to me. Please let me know if I don't get myself clear. I am sure I am pinning down the problem here.

Thanks for your support


Chris

P.S.: I just read your preveious post. Nice that you solved the pedal issue. However, the effect I am talking about remains and is a latency on top of everything. My example is with pedal up.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #513
Gear Nut
 
Mr.Scarbee's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
We also use 2 convolutions - one for reverb - latency is 5.8 ms
and one for half pedal IR - latency 5.8 ms.

Could be interesting to see latency with these to things disabled.
You can test this yourself by unchecking the "Convolution reverb" and "Simulate half pedaling with impulse response" on/off buttons.


combined that is 11.6 ms.

We COULD use latency of 1.5 ms on both and test performance.

cheers

thomas
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #514
Gear Nut
 
Mr.Scarbee's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hi Chris,

If you go to Kontakt OPTIONs - then AUDIO

what does it say?
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #515
Lives for gear
 
feck's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I am glad to see the support here, as I have mentioned, and that the issues are getting resolved. However, I can't help but ask - if this exact sample set was used for the new record, either Alicia doesn't quantize, notice latency, plays consistently ahead of the beat, or something else is up if she used this for her whole record in its' current state. I don't mean in any way to say that if that is the case that there is a fault there - I just am very surprised that a pianist of repute would deal with these bugs and not notice them on a major label record.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #516
Gear Nut
 
Mr.Scarbee's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by feck ➑️
I am glad to see the support here, as I have mentioned, and that the issues are getting resolved. However, I can't help but ask - if this exact sample set was used for the new record, either Alicia doesn't quantize, notice latency, plays consistently ahead of the beat, or something else is up if she used this for her whole record in its' current state. I don't mean in any way to say that if that is the case that there is a fault there - I just am very surprised that a pianist of repute would deal with these bugs and not notice them on a major label record.
A lot of people have played on it and haven't noticed it. I presume you adapt to it.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #517
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Scott Fritz,

Even with the problem mentioned above present (and this will be fixed now), the higher the value of the latency knob the lower the difference in latency between pedal-up and pedal-down. And if my hypothesis is right then turning off the two convolution effects (by turning off convolution reverb and half-pedaling IR in the script UI) would reduce the latency caused by those effects. So whether one experience any significant latency problems could be related to what settings one uses.

If the extra latency is caused by those effects we'll try to see if we can come up with options to reduce the effect.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #518
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Scarbee ➑️
We also use 2 convolutions - one for reverb - latency is 5.8 ms
and one for half pedal IR - latency 5.8 ms.

Could be interesting to see latency with these to things disabled.
You can test this yourself by unchecking the "Convolution reverb" and "Simulate half pedaling with impulse response" on/off buttons.


combined that is 11.6 ms.

We COULD use latency of 1.5 ms on both and test performance.

cheers

thomas
Hi Thomas,

that is an interesting information. I think this explains it completely. I will repeat the test tonight with these settings disabled. If you reduced the delay of the convolutions to 1.5ms, would it affect the sound or only the processor load?

There is another strange effect I experience. If I hit the right pedal hard, the damper noise is more silent than if I hit it softly. Is it supposed to be this way, or might my controller send reversed data? I will also check, what midi signals the pedal is causing...

Thanks again for your continuous support.


Chris
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #519
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Scarbee ➑️
Hi Chris,

If you go to Kontakt OPTIONs - then AUDIO

what does it say?
Have to check tonight. It sais something about processing time if I recall right? Does this have to do with the convolutions?

BTW, does anybody know, if this controller 110 problem for sustained samples can be fixed in cubase, since I don't have Kontakt. What if I send the correct value on controller 1 to set the latency of these samples?

Thanks,

Chris
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #520
Gear Nut
 
Mr.Scarbee's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_T ➑️
There is another strange effect I experience. If I hit the right pedal hard, the damper noise is more silent than if I hit it softly. Is it supposed to be this way, or might my controller send reversed data?
the loudness of pedal noise is dependant on previously played velocity - so if you play hard - pedal noise will be hard too.

If you play soft - pedal noise will be soft.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #521
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Scarbee ➑️
the loudness of pedal noise is dependant on previously played velocity - so if you play hard - pedal noise will be hard too.

If you play soft - pedal noise will be soft.

But I am talking about hitting the pedal at different velocities. No keys involved, no resonating strings. I mean the noise when the dampers lift off the strings. It is louder with a slower movement of the pedal. I will investigate further, then continue this discussion.

Chris
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #522
Gear Nut
 
Mr.Scarbee's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_T ➑️
But I am talking about hitting the pedal at different velocities. No keys involved, no resonating strings. I mean the noise when the dampers lift off the strings. It is louder with a slower movement of the pedal. I will investigate further, then continue this discussion.

Chris
pedal is not velocity programmed as this require are pedal with continuos values.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #523
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Scarbee ➑️
Guys.... we just found this bug. The pedal down groups seems to have cc#1 to control latency and not CC#110. That explains the problems!!!

THANKS a lot...

If you have Kontakt you can try this:

Open editor and select a PD group.
Click on SOURCE - MOD flag.
Look at midi CC - it says 1. It should be 110.

there are 8 PD groups -all has to be changed this way.

To add the extra 2ms latency cut try this:

click EDIT All groups
Click on SOURCE - MOD flag.
Look at midi CC 110
Move slider so it displays 59,8%

we will fix this in the update.

Hi again!

I'm glad I could help. And I already tried the settings in Kontakt you suggested: AND IT DOES THE TRICK!!! hehthumbsup

Both modifications work great:
1. Now the knob works for sustained notes too (this was my major problem before, because when I fixed it in Kontakt and played live, I immediately could feel the difference - great.
And it even got better (in area of timing) when I did the range expansion of the knob to reduce the latency - 2ms.
2. I really do notice the 2 ms less latency at 0%, and now its really fun to play, including faster songs! Thanks a lot for these modifications!!!

I will do measurings in cubase and post them here - but the feeling is great now!

Greetings from Austria
eagle_j
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #524
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Scarbee ➑️
pedal is not velocity programmed as this require are pedal with continuos values.
That's exactly what I have, a continuous controller on my Yamaha Silent Piano. Maybe it's confusing the plugin. I can try to filter the intermediate events to see if it improves things. I thought for the half pedaling you would use continuous values on the pedal. Anyway, this is really a minor subject. I was just concerned that if my controller is different than expected by the plugin, it wouldn't do the half pedaling right. So half pedaling is only simulated for an on-off type pedal, no intermediate values used?



Chris
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #525
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_j ➑️
Hi again!

I'm glad I could help. And I already tried the settings in Kontakt you suggested: AND IT DOES THE TRICK!!! hehthumbsup

Both modifications work great:
1. Now the knob works for sustained notes too (this was my major problem before, because when I fixed it in Kontakt and played live, I immediately could feel the difference - great.
And it even got better (in area of timing) when I did the range expansion of the knob to reduce the latency - 2ms.
2. I really do notice the 2 ms less latency at 0%, and now its really fun to play, including faster songs! Thanks a lot for these modifications!!!

I will do measurings in cubase and post them here - but the feeling is great now!

Greetings from Austria
eagle_j
Great to hear!! I'm glad my measurment method helped, even if I didn't find this pedal problem. The only thing that counts is that we are getting rid of the latency. Can't wait to experience it too. Do you think sending midi controller events on CC1 and CC110 with value 76 or 77 (Which is 59.8%) will do the trick too? Alternatively, what happens (without the modification in Kontakt), if you move the modulation wheel of the keyboard in Kontakt Player? Shouldn't that affect the latency of the sustained samples?

Chris

P.S.: I assume, you had one of the convolution effects switched on when doing your measurements, correct?
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #526
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris_T ➑️
Great to hear!! I'm glad my measurment method helped, even if I didn't find this pedal problem. The only thing that counts is that we are getting rid of the latency. Can't wait to experience it too. Do you think sending midi controller events on CC1 and CC110 with value 76 or 77 (Which is 59.8%) will do the trick too?
The following is a workaround for those who don't have the full version of Kontakt:

To get the extra 2 ms one needs to change the modulation intensity slider which not possible through the script interface. However CC#1 (mod-wheel) can still be used to bring pedal-down latency in line with that for pedal-up samples (the higher the CC#1 the more of the attack is skipped). If the latency is set to L percent (a value between 0 and 100), then CC#1 can be set to a value of 127 - 127 * L / 100 in order to get pedal-up and pedal-down to behave the same. For the minimum latency setting this means that CC#1 should be set to 127.
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #527
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Hello!

I did some measuring again: a5 velocity:100
pedal up, knob range extended (from 54 to 59,8), 0% knob position
and here are the results:

I now do get latency of around 6,5 ms (wavefom start)

But if I deselect "half pedaling" latency decreases really drastically with waveformstart at around 0,8 ms!

The same with pedal down sounds.

I did not use convolution reverb in the tests.

Greetings from Austria
eagle_j

P.S.: Am I correct assuming that switching on the half pedaling switch only makes sense if you own a sustain-pedal sending continous information (not a simple switch on off pedal), as stated in the user manual?
So one could easily deselect this option (without losing quality), if he doesn't own such a "half pedaling sustain-pedal"?
Old 20th April 2010 | Show parent
  #528
Gear Nut
 
Mr.Scarbee's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_j ➑️
Hi again!

I'm glad I could help. And I already tried the settings in Kontakt you suggested: AND IT DOES THE TRICK!!! hehthumbsup
Great!
Old 21st April 2010 | Show parent
  #529
Lives for gear
 
theothermarkwilliams's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
As someone still watching from the sidelines, this is great news. Any ideas as to when we could expect to see a bugfix release, Thomas or Ann or kotori?
Old 21st April 2010 | Show parent
  #530
Lives for gear
 
loopy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Anyone know how to save these settings so I don't have to enter them each time I fire up the program?

When I try to save as a preset it says "Cannot Save".

tia

P.S. This is far deeper than I have ever been into Kontakt before.
Old 21st April 2010 | Show parent
  #531
Gear Guru
 
Animus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by loopy ➑️
Anyone know how to save these settings so I don't have to enter them each time I fire up the program?

When I try to save as a preset it says "Cannot Save".

tia

P.S. This is far deeper than I have ever been into Kontakt before.
Save the instrument using Kontakt's menu.
Old 21st April 2010 | Show parent
  #532
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Easy bug fix!

Hi,

no latency for me too! I am a happy camper now!

The easiest you can do, if you don't have the full version of kontant is to move the modulation wheel in the kontakt player all the way up and the latency knob all the way down. Without the convolution reverb and half pedaling, there is no latency anymore. Great. Thank you very much everybody for the help. A very constructive thread besides some off topic drifts

Cheers

Chris
Old 21st April 2010 | Show parent
  #533
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
I'm really excited to hear that the issue has been pinpointed, and an immediate solution is available.

Thank you to all who have posted their findings and research!

It's also great to see that Thomas and Ann are stand up people that have support behind their product!
Old 21st April 2010 | Show parent
  #534
Lives for gear
 
SKyflash34's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Looking forward to trying this out! Unfortunately I have to leave for the day
but I will try this out later tonight. Good news indeed!! It plays okay for me
and I've been able to use it no problem as it is, but definitely looking forward
for this fix coming soon! Sounds like a MUCH easier thing to fix than originally thought?
Old 21st April 2010 | Show parent
  #535
RTR
Lives for gear
 
RTR's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle_j ➑️
Hi again!

@ RTR: The Zoom H4 is a wonderful recording device with really great audio quality, great microphones and many possibilities.

@ Dr.Innovation: Core i5 750 (stock speed), Gigabyte P55-UD4, 4GB RAM, 2 internal SATA Samsung HDs, 1 external E-SATA Harddisk, Audio Interfaces: Phonic Helix Universal 24 (Firewire) and intern RME-Audio Digi 96/8 PST (everything latest drivers) Windows XP SP3, Cubase 5 and many plugins.

@ ChrisT: I did the same you did but in Cubase 5.1.1.
I made a midi-event a5 velocity 100 and did a mixdown direct from the VSTi-Channel (not the Audio-outs to prevent the hardware-latency from being included)
I did 4 mixdowns:
1. latency knob at 0%: I got about 8 ms latency (peak at around 10-11 ms)
2. latency knob at 100%: I got about 30ms latency (peak at around 31-34 ms)
3. latency knob at 0% (but this time sustained - pedal down): I got about 30 ms latency (peak at around 31-34 ms)!!!
3. latency knob at 100% (again sustained - pedal down): I got about 30 ms latency (peak at around 31-34 ms) again!!!

This is only the latency of AK without hardware-latency. So for realtime you'll have to add your hardware-latency and this becomes bad - even at 0% you will come over 10ms latency and this is noticeable.

Notice the following:
1. latency-knob is working for non sustained notes (about 22 ms range) but even leaves a gap of about 8 ms before waveform start.
2. before waveformstart (at about 8 ms) there is an almost empty gap, I cannot imagine anyone really noticing that altitude. So this 8 ms could be cutoff by latency knob range expansion without real loss.
3. BUT: When the sustain-pedal is pressed the latency knob DOES NOT WORK!!! As I stated above there is a delay of about 30 ms at 0% and at 100% (latency knob position) -
This explains why I stated above, that I don't notice much change when moving latency knob - I use the sustain pedal a lot - so its evident very often.

When I imagine: 30 ms AK-latency + hardware latency = no timing accurate playing is possible even at lower speeds.

Please have a look into this!
Thank you very much.

Greetings from Austria
eagle_j
I wounder if the new zoom camcorder thing would sound as good as yours, I was thinking about buying one!
Old 21st April 2010 | Show parent
  #536
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
Turning the Modulation wheel all the way up with the latency knob on 0% works...Thank you Mr. Scarbee and Chris T!

For those who have a Yamaha S90ES like me can do it from your keyboard itself too by wheeling up, I'm pretty sure midi controllers w/mod wheels...can do it right from the keyboard's modulation wheel itself as well, of course.
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #537
Lives for gear
 
everythinglouder's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Scarbee ➑️
Move slider so it displays 59,8%
I can't get the slider to the exact position of 59.8%...

I can either do 58.8 or 60.1. Which should I do for the lowest latency?

Thanks
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #538
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by everythinglouder ➑️
I can't get the slider to the exact position of 59.8%...

I can either do 58.8 or 60.1. Which should I do for the lowest latency?

Thanks
you need to use one of the modifier keys for finetuning. i'm not sure which, just try them either alt or strg or shift...
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #539
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Now when were down to discussing microseconds maybe it's a good point to put the adjustment described by Mr. Scarbee into perspective: if you move your body one meter further away from your speakers you add more latency than his change removes (considering how long it takes sound to travel one meter in air at room temperature). So personally I wouldn't sweat it over that tiny difference.

But until the update is released it can still be a good idea to turn up the mod-wheel (CC#1) in case you turn down the Latency knob.
Old 22nd April 2010 | Show parent
  #540
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotori ➑️
Now when were down to discussing microseconds maybe it's a good point to put the adjustment described by Mr. Scarbee into perspective: if you move your body one meter further away from your speakers you add more latency than his change removes (considering how long it takes sound to travel one meter in air at room temperature). So personally I wouldn't sweat it over that tiny difference.

But until the update is released it can still be a good idea to turn up the mod-wheel (CC#1) in case you turn down the Latency knob.

Correct, that's why I put my 300W JBL Speakers right in front of my ears on top of my Yamaha Silent Piano. It's still half a meter distance, but it sounds like sitting at a real grand. 1m distance causes 3.4ms! But you have about that distance to the soundboard of the real thing as well, so that is part of the natural latency.

Also, I find it also as much important for a realistic impression to crank up the volume a lot. A real concert grand is really really loud. I think my 300W are well suited for this. This doesn't mean I am blowing away my neighbors, you do so if you play ff. I love to play the AK in the lower velocity range like p and pp (playing a lot of classic again) and then you get that soft sound at a decent (realistic) volume. Even the most silent notes you play on a grand will typically fill your complete house with sound. That you only get with power. A nice side effect is, that I feel the vibrations in the keys. Very realistic! I keep checking, if my real strings are really disabled. At some times I forget that I am playing a virtual instrument. BTW, for live playing, it doesn't matter that I clip off the key noise, since my real keys make real noise too!

Very critical in general for a realistic feeling is the setting of the velocity curve. The midi of the silent piano is terrible. I need to adapt the gain by factor 1.2 in cubase, which seems not to be possible in Kontakt player. Sometimes I am also experimenting with a small offset. The concave settings of AK are a little rough for my taste. I think something between 25 and 50 would be best for me. I am still trying to find the perfect settings. I am pretty close though.

Chris
πŸ“ Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 55 views: 37976
Avatar for IM WHO YOU THINK
IM WHO YOU THINK 13th October 2020
replies: 66 views: 7088
Avatar for keylay
keylay 31st December 2009
replies: 59 views: 19113
Avatar for chrisdee
chrisdee 19th May 2011
replies: 1296 views: 194030
Avatar for heraldo_jones
heraldo_jones 1st February 2016
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearspace Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…

Forum Jump
Forum Jump