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SPL IRON mastering compressor by Brainworx
Old 13th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1021
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace ➡️
You need top push them that hard to have a visual indication on what's going on. This blind test shows that is there for "real-life" scenarios too, and the not so obvious energy measurement method also "see" a difference on ordinary music content. This Plugin-alliance plugin should not be used in 44.1 or 48 kHz sampling rates, case closed.
It also explain why I dont' have any issues, because one, I'm not slamming 19kHz tones into the compressor and two, I work at 96kHz. When used as the compressor is intended I don't notice any artefacting.

I believe in the grater scheme of things this HAS to be taken into account, using a device how it was intended to be used. As Buckan stated "80% of my 20+ saturation, distortion, tape, preamp etc plug-ins have that audible side effect".

As we go into the future this will be more of a non-issue as CPUs will get faster, sampling rates oversampling higher. Analogue has its artefacts, many of them too, aliasing is really the only digital bugbear these days. Even then, its so easily managed it's barley an issue, until you do some uneathly thing with something that wasn't designed to behave well in those circumstances. Push alot of analogue things too, not many of them will hold up either.

None of this will help make music. Its barley academic as there is very few instances where this kind of hyper focused analysis of how a plugin deals with ultra high frequencies under extreme circumstances will come in useful. It's the results that matter in the end, it's only important to ourselves and our own ego how we get there.

Often when choosing a compressor for an important task, mix buss, vocals, bass, whatever, I will audition several and chose the one I think sounds best for its given context. Often Iron will be there getting compared with others, sometimes it gets chosen, other times it doesn't because of the aesthetics I'm going for. It's never not getting chosen because it sounds crap in the high frequencies.

But again, I do work at 96k, so my experiences could be different
Old 13th October 2020 | Show parent
  #1022
plx
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by simon.billington ➡️
It also explain why I dont' have any issues, because one, I'm not slamming 19kHz tones into the compressor and two, I work at 96kHz. When used as the compressor is intended I don't notice any artefacting.

I believe in the grater scheme of things this HAS to be taken into account, using a device how it was intended to be used. As Buckan stated "80% of my 20+ saturation, distortion, tape, preamp etc plug-ins have that audible side effect".

As we go into the future this will be more of a non-issue as CPUs will get faster, sampling rates oversampling higher. Analogue has its artefacts, many of them too, aliasing is really the only digital bugbear these days. Even then, its so easily managed it's barley an issue, until you do some uneathly thing with something that wasn't designed to behave well in those circumstances. Push alot of analogue things too, not many of them will hold up either.

None of this will help make music. Its barley academic as there is very few instances where this kind of hyper focused analysis of how a plugin deals with ultra high frequencies under extreme circumstances will come in useful. It's the results that matter in the end, it's only important to ourselves and our own ego how we get there.

Often when choosing a compressor for an important task, mix buss, vocals, bass, whatever, I will audition several and chose the one I think sounds best for its given context. Often Iron will be there getting compared with others, sometimes it gets chosen, other times it doesn't because of the aesthetics I'm going for. It's never not getting chosen because it sounds crap in the high frequencies.

But again, I do work at 96k, so my experiences could be different
ugh. I'll try to go as slow as possible this time.

I made the 19k tests, it was to as graphically as possible show the differences between various compressors - in that particular test, FabFilter Pro-C2, Voxengo Marqius, u-he and IRON.

IRON is newer than all three, and has much worse aliasing than all three, and also has much worse aliasing than BX's own Alpha Compressor.
At 96k the problem is obviously shifted way outside hearable range. That's the point. That's why you can use oversampling.
So when you work at 48k plugin works at 96k or 192k. Or you make it work at 96k all the time - it oversamples at 48k and DOESN'T oversample at 96k.

Oversampling in a compressor also IMPROVES TIMING.

I started testing IRON in and out because it didn't sound right to me when used at 44.1/48. I did NOT KNOW that plugin doctor existed until way after - I tested IRON in Logic with Voxengo Span.

Moreover, in a blind test conducted 10 posts ago people overwhelmingly picked oversampled version out, that's more than random occurence.

Also, it has nothing to do with CPU, there are thousands of ways to deal with this, that's why every self-respecting developer in 2020 that does non-linear processing either enables oversampling, or has separate offline-render options, or has auto-oversampling based on at which sampling rate you work at.


Have you used hardware IRON? I did. You can push it. It doesn't alias. So plugin that's supposed to be an amazing emulation is not designed to do something that hardware easily handles, and you're supposed to have that divined in your brain by dirk? Since you know, it doesn't say in the manual "it's kinda like hardware but you can't push it at all since we didn't bother to oversample it".

If plugin cannot be used at 44.1/48 in 2020 it's because it is poorly executed. There's absolutely no other excuse here.
Last but not least, it has a price tag of 299$.
That's twice as pretty much everything else out there sans Weiss DS1... Everything else that on a technical level works MUCH BETTER. There's simply no excuse for this.

Working at 96K won't help you make music either, but here we are...


You know i really used to like your posts over at logic forums because they were insightful and impartial. Be apologetic about half-assed plugin releases all you want, but that's on you
Old 19th December 2020
  #1023
using two examples for a test is not a good idea. 50% chance is too much to prove anything.
Old 19th December 2020 | Show parent
  #1024
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montanasan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Currently on offer for $49.99. Is it worth a punt?
Old 19th December 2020 | Show parent
  #1025
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27 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by montanasan ➡️
Currently on offer for $49.99. Is it worth a punt?
Yes. If you work in 96k or more.
Old 15th January 2021 | Show parent
  #1026
Here for the gear
 
Guys, I’ve been using this compressor on busses and instruments, even on my 2buss with great success in 48kHz sessions. But I’m worried now. I cannot sleep at night. I’m afraid that aliasing police will blast through my window any minute and arrest me. I don’t wanna go to jail but I like this compressor. So if you don’t want to live in fear, please don’t use this compressor. I miss the old days without SPL Iron, I miss the night sleep. Not worth it! But I can’t live without it now, gives me such great feeling every time. I wish that we lived in a world were a bit of aliasing would be legal, for personal use, you know..
Old 16th January 2021
  #1027
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jams3223's Avatar
 
Use it within a plugin called ddmf metaplugin silly
Old 11th April 2021
  #1028
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Did anyone compare HW and SW? I like the plugin and wonder if hardware brings something more to the table
Old 11th April 2021 | Show parent
  #1029
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Calagan's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyjanopan ➡️
Did anyone compare HW and SW? I like the plugin and wonder if hardware brings something more to the table
It brings no aliasing ah ah ah...
Sorry, I couldn't resist...
Old 11th April 2021 | Show parent
  #1030
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calagan ➡️
It brings no aliasing ah ah ah...
Sorry, I couldn't resist...
I don't know if I ever heard aliasing to be honest
Old 16th April 2021
  #1031
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the aliasing is the same on the same level on black box and other uad plugins so i don't why people complaining so much for it while they could just use ddmf metaplugin to oversample it
Old 16th April 2021 | Show parent
  #1032
plx
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jams3223 ➡️
the aliasing is the same on the same level on black box and other uad plugins so i don't why people complaining so much for it while they could just use ddmf metaplugin to oversample it
it's not tho.
i don't know about UAD but generally softube stuff doesn't alias nearly as much, neither does all other PA stuff (like SMHC Class A, AlphaComp and iirc even BlackBox)
Old 24th April 2021
  #1033
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No replies, but I ordered HW Iron and will compare it to SW myself. I like the plugin, so if it's let's say 10% better, then I'll be happy
Old 24th April 2021 | Show parent
  #1034
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Calagan's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyjanopan ➡️
No replies, but I ordered HW Iron and will compare it to SW myself. I like the plugin, so if it's let's say 10% better, then I'll be happy
Curious to hear about your results...
Old 4th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1035
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calagan ➡️
Curious to hear about your results...
As would I.
Old 4th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon.billington ➡️
As would I.
Sure thing, I'm still waiting for the unit, should be here in the middle of May. I ordered the All Black version therefore I need to wait a bit for it
Old 6th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1037
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyjanopan ➡️
Sure thing, I'm still waiting for the unit, should be here in the middle of May. I ordered the All Black version therefore I need to wait a bit for it
I can be patient.

All analogue devices are different due to the tolerance in components, so you'll never get two exactly alike. To a large degree that is why PA have their TMT, to account for a lot of those variations.

From my perspective I think this exercise is not about whether it sounds EXACTLY alike as thats pretty much impossible, its whether it sounds convincingly like another unit of the production line. Fortunately you have the TMT to give you more variations to compare.
Old 6th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1038
plx
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by simon.billington ➡️
I can be patient.

All analogue devices are different due to the tolerance in components, so you'll never get two exactly alike. To a large degree that is why PA have their TMT, to account for a lot of those variations.

From my perspective I think this exercise is not about whether it sounds EXACTLY alike as thats pretty much impossible, its whether it sounds convincingly like another unit of the production line. Fortunately you have the TMT to give you more variations to compare.
if two hardware units would be so skewed as two "tmt" instances are, they'd be called "defective" and sent to service.

TMT is a parameter randomiser. I guess it's convenient that it's built in, but you could do some freeform phase/EQ on every track (subtle) and achieve more or less the same effect
Old 6th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1039
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by plx ➡️
if two hardware units would be so skewed as two "tmt" instances are, they'd be called "defective" and sent to service.

TMT is a parameter randomiser. I guess it's convenient that it's built in, but you could do some freeform phase/EQ on every track (subtle) and achieve more or less the same effect
Exactly, most annoying thing in TMT is stereo drift to one side, especially when it is the low end. I can understand it on a channel strip all across the mix, but on something that's mostly used on a mix buss there should be an option to scale down the range to 10% or something like that
Old 7th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1040
plx
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyjanopan ➡️
Exactly, most annoying thing in TMT is stereo drift to one side, especially when it is the low end. I can understand it on a channel strip all across the mix, but on something that's mostly used on a mix buss there should be an option to scale down the range to 10% or something like that
I agree.
when used on many instances it also scatters the phantom image a little. It's like using blur in photoshop. I don't really get it, this is not something that's desirable by top-range hardware - it's something top range hardware was so expensive and desks had to be online 24/7 to avoid.

The fact that some channels drift that much in ""mastering"" processors such as SPL IRON and bx_masterdesk is telling how much actually went into "modelling" these tolerances.
Good professional hardware needs to be consistent for same build version - so it's easily replaceable.

Even 50€ behringer desks i tried drift much less than TMT does. It's more what people "expect" hardware to be than what actual hardware is.
Kinda like most tape plugins, which have wow&flutter knob that's beyond any real-world wow and flutter when you go past 15%.
Old 7th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1041
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27 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by plx ➡️
it's not tho.
i don't know about UAD but generally softube stuff doesn't alias nearly as much, neither does all other PA stuff (like SMHC Class A, AlphaComp and iirc even BlackBox)
Softube does not generate so much harmonics. One of the worst aliasing plugins I have is softube tape. But it also generate more harmonics than the other softube plugins I have. (I dont have any of their newer plugins though)
Old 7th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1042
plx
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace ➡️
Softube does not generate so much harmonics. One of the worst aliasing plugins I have is softube tape. But it also generate more harmonics than the other softube plugins I have. (I dont have any of their newer plugins though)
It only seems to mirror if you go over 15% THD tho - results are in accordance with 2x oversampling on other similar plugins. It does mirror more than "Harmonics" tho.
Also, its minimal phase AA filter.

I have all my voxengo plugins set to "minimal phase" AA, i prefer phase distortion over linearphase.


On topic:
I tried SPL IRON again today against other VariMu plugs i have (AR-1, Mu, VCL-25A) and it still aliases way, way more than those, and even if it's not pushed that hard, the moment you even use Input control it starts chirping
Whether that's an issue or not is up to how much koolaid you have for breakfast. IMD is also just weird and chirpy af if you have too much going on at the high end.

some TMT channels (9-10, 14-15, 15-16) have almost 1-2dB channel difference. You can hear the phantom center leaning in that.
My "enthusiast" technics cassette deck has less skewed stereo image, and this is supposed to be an emu of a top notch mastering compressor.
Old 7th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1043
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by plx ➡️
some TMT channels (9-10, 14-15, 15-16) have almost 1-2dB channel difference. You can hear the phantom center leaning in that.
My "enthusiast" technics cassette deck has less skewed stereo image, and this is supposed to be an emu of a top notch mastering compressor.
A really expensive top notch mastering compressor too. You'd consider it unfit for mastering with that much L/R channel variance.

Would like to see PA add a mix control to the TMT portion, or so as not to confuse users with overall wet/dry mix, some kind of "a little" "more" "alot" setting options would help.
Old 7th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1044
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27 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by plx ➡️
I

On topic:
I tried SPL IRON again today against other VariMu plugs i have (AR-1, Mu, VCL-25A) and it still aliases way, way more than those, and even if it's not pushed that hard, the moment you even use Input control it starts chirping
Whether that's an issue or not is up to how much koolaid you have for breakfast. IMD is also just weird and chirpy af if you have too much going on at the high end.

some TMT channels (9-10, 14-15, 15-16) have almost 1-2dB channel difference. You can hear the phantom center leaning in that.
My "enthusiast" technics cassette deck has less skewed stereo image, and this is supposed to be an emu of a top notch mastering compressor.
It is terrible on on 44&48 it is really need a oversampling option. I think it was that plugin that got me in to this thread from the beginning.
Old 7th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1045
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Calagan's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
What are you thinking about Iron when oversampled (in Metaplugin for exemple) ?

I must say I like this plugin (I love the action on some sources - it doesn't work for everything), but rarely use it because of the bad ergonomy (2db steps output knob being the weirdest exemple, the overwhelming choice of rectifiers being another).

When I use it, I usually use it inside Metaplugin, oversampled X4 or X8.
Sometimes it works better @ 44khz (it feels more rock'n roll) but most of the time I can hear a clear improvement with oversampling.

I remember someone talked about some truncation noise issue with it (something that can't be solved with any oversampling option). I must admit I don't hear that, but maybe someone with more educated ear can add some useful info about that.

P.S. : by the way, I never use TMT. I find it disturbing, and meaningless when the initial purpose of it was to emulate the different sounds of console channels on a whole mix. Come on, it's a mastering compressor !
Old 7th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1046
plx
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calagan ➡️
I remember someone talked about some truncation noise issue with it (something that can't be solved with any oversampling option). I must admit I don't hear that, but maybe someone with more educated ear can add some useful info about that.

P.S. : by the way, I never use TMT. I find it disturbing, and meaningless when the initial purpose of it was to emulate the different sounds of console channels on a whole mix. Come on, it's a mastering compressor !
Truncation is 23bit, so it's really only an issue if you run it with really low levels.
But it's there anyway, which is telling about coding hygiene.

So basically, everything under 0dB that you run into iron will be chopped off - truncated to 23bits. If you run a -48dB signal into it, the output will be 15bits - no dither.

If you'd run a -144dB signal into it - you won't get anything out.


It's ironic because the hardware boasts 120V rails and extremely high dynamic range

I don't think i have ANY other plugin compressor that truncates in that manner.
Attached Thumbnails
SPL IRON mastering compressor by Brainworx-screenshot-2021-05-07-13.21.43.jpg   SPL IRON mastering compressor by Brainworx-screenshot-2021-05-07-13.21.51.jpg  
Old 7th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1047
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27 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace ➡️
It is terrible on on 44&48 it is really need a oversampling option. I think it was that plugin that got me in to this thread from the beginning.
Hmm. I thought I was on the aliasing measurement thread...
Old 7th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1048
plx
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace ➡️
Hmm. I thought I was on the aliasing measurement thread...
tbh, SPL IRON is an aliasing measurement thread. I don't know recent plugin that's as sloppily done as SPL IRON :D

Could you point me to said thread?
Old 7th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1049
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Calagan's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by plx ➡️
Truncation is 23bit, so it's really only an issue if you run it with really low levels.
But it's there anyway, which is telling about coding hygiene.

So basically, everything under 0dB that you run into iron will be chopped off - truncated to 23bits. If you run a -48dB signal into it, the output will be 15bits - no dither.

If you'd run a -144dB signal into it - you won't get anything out.


It's ironic because the hardware boasts 120V rails and extremely high dynamic range

I don't think i have ANY other plugin compressor that truncates in that manner.
Interesting.
I guess it becomes an issue under certain circumstances : for exemple a reverb tail or a long fade out... I'll test it and check, but I guess it's almost a non issue because anyway the truncation noise on a 16 bit master is masked by a very low level dithering, so a 23 bits output (why 23 and not 24 ?) in this circumstance will be masked when the final dithering will happen...
... If there's no processing after Iron that raises the issue (for exemple another compressor) !

But yes, it seems very strange, in terms of "coding hygiene" like you said, to keep such crazy issues for what is supposed to be the emulation of a great piece of gear. I think I never heard about any recent plugin that works under 32 bit processing (and most great plugins are processing at 64 bit floating point : DMG Audio, Sonimus, etc. etc.).
I love the compression action of Iron, so it's truly a shame PA doesn't accept any critics about it and doesn't even plan to fix them...

P.S. : By the way, how do you test the bit depth processing of a plugin ? I didn't understand the pictures you uploaded...
P.S. 2 : Using Bitter from Stillwell (this plugin is measuring the output bit depth), I don't notice any 24 bit output after Iron. But it's true there's a tiny bit of bit depth lost compared to any other plugin. It's still more comparable to a 32 bit output (maybe a 31 or 30 bit) than a 23 or 24 bit output...
Old 7th May 2021 | Show parent
  #1050
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27 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by plx ➡️
tbh, SPL IRON is an aliasing measurement thread. I don't know recent plugin that's as sloppily done as SPL IRON :D

Could you point me to said thread?
Testing Aliasing of Plugins (measurements)
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