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SPL IRON mastering compressor by Brainworx
Old 27th January 2019 | Show parent
  #571
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovyomega ➡️
Are you kidding me? You made universal statements! How old are you?
Are we talking about plugins or about me? So tell me, did alpha null?
Old 27th January 2019 | Show parent
  #572
Gear Nut
 
groovyomega's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingresso ➡️
I tested on a few more plugins just for fun.

Maag EQ4: nulled.
The Vitalizer: did not null.
Transient Designer: did not null.
TLA-100A: did not null.
Transient Designer was coded by UAD and is completely different from the PA version - hence they don't null.
Regarding Vitalizer and TLA-100A - simply spoken there are some sort of irregularities programmed (e.g. analog drift) - especially with the saturation used on these ones - so that sometimes even the same version (native to native) doesn't null (cp. free running modulation synth sounds also never null). Try it!
Old 27th January 2019 | Show parent
  #573
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingresso ➡️
What if I told you they don't null?
I would believe you. I said some are carbon copies, not all. I myself have no UA, so I can't comment beyond that, but reliable people have told me some of them null. In fact, I just checked on youtube and there are examples available too.

Best
Old 27th January 2019 | Show parent
  #574
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovyomega ➡️
Transient Designer was coded by UAD and is completely different from the PA version - hence they don't null.
Regarding Vitalizer and TLA-100A - simply spoken there are programmed some sort of irregularities (e.g. analog drift) going on - so that sometimes even the same version (native to native) doesn't null (cp. free running modulation synth sounds also never null). Try it!
Yeah, maybe the sonic differences I hear could be caused by program irregularities instead of oversampling. I agree with you on that, but speaking of alpha in particular, the difference is way too obvious, makes me think it's more than just irregularities. Feels a lot like the oversampling of LVC audio, or Audiod3ck for that matter..

Either way it doesn't change the fact that UA/PA versions don't always sound the same.
Old 27th January 2019 | Show parent
  #575
Gear Nut
 
groovyomega's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingresso ➡️
Yeah, maybe the sonic differences I hear could be caused by program irregularities instead of oversampling. I agree with you on that, but speaking of alpha in particular, the difference is way too obvious, makes me think it's more than just irregularities. Feels a lot like the oversampling of LVC audio, or Audiod3ck for that matter..

Either way it doesn't change the fact that UA/PA versions don't always sound the same.
Dude, you really are incredible. How can you be so stubborn?

Don't you think that the developers (e.g. Softube stated this right here on gearslutz) - actually "know better" than you when they say that the native versions are absolutely identical to the DSP version?

Unbelievable.
Old 27th January 2019
  #576
Gear Guru
 
Jeezo's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
If i'm not mistaking , all UAD plugins gets oversampled , and a big factor or people raving about uad stuff is that they benefit the quality of oversampling versus there regular stuff on low sessions at 48 /44 ...

Transients handlind , clarity , compression timing ,ect ..all benefits from that .... Stinkfingers (what a name !! lol) are you sure about truncation ? if so , it's another thing that annoys me more ....
Old 27th January 2019 | Show parent
  #577
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovyomega ➡️
Dude, you really are incredible. How can you be so stubborn?

Don't you think that the developers (e.g. Softube stated this right here on gearslutz) - actually "know better" than you when they say that the native versions are absolutely identical to the DSP version?

Unbelievable.

I never said I know better than them. lol Never said they're wrong/lying.

But you know, even if they say that they are identical, if my ears hear the difference and it DOES NOT null, of course it doesn't "sound" identical, even if the coding is.
Plus I never heard PA or UA saying that the alpha is identical anyway.
Oversampling thing is just a speculation so I apologize if my original post was misleading, which probably was.
Besides you're the one who brought up the "null test" as a way to prove that they are identical, but as you see, a lot of these plugs don't null.

I always choose what sounds best to my own ears for my job. Sorry, but I couldn't care any less about what you think about me.

Cheers!
Old 27th January 2019 | Show parent
  #578
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo ➡️
If i'm not mistaking , all UAD plugins gets oversampled , and a big factor or people raving about uad stuff is that they benefit the quality of oversampling versus there regular stuff on low sessions at 48 /44 ...

Transients handlind , clarity , compression timing ,ect ..all benefits from that .... Stinkfingers (what a name !! lol) are you sure about truncation ? if so , it's another thing that annoys me more ....
Yeah, maybe it's more to do with the DSP rather than the plugin itself. But then that leaves me wondering how they manage to oversample plugins that don't have an oversampling option in the first place. Like is it possible to just externally oversample a plugin without actually coding it into it?
Old 27th January 2019 | Show parent
  #579
Gear Nut
 
groovyomega's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingresso ➡️
I never said I know better than them. lol Never said they're wrong/lying.

But you know, even if they say that they are identical, if my ears hear the difference and it DOES NOT null, of course it doesn't "sound" identical, even if the coding is.
Plus I never heard PA or UA saying that the alpha is identical anyway.
Oversampling thing is just a speculation so I apologize if my original post was misleading, which probably was.
Besides you're the one who brought up the "null test" as a way to prove that they are identical, but as you see, a lot of these plugs don't null.

I always choose what sounds best to my own ears for my job. Sorry, but I couldn't care any less about what you think about me.

Cheers!
It's not about what I think about you and what your ears are telling you.
It's about making these untrue universal statements (e.g. "Brainworx never oversamples their stuff, but some of the UAD version of PA plugins are definitely oversampled" which is just not true!).
Old 27th January 2019 | Show parent
  #580
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by groovyomega ➡️
It's not about what I think about you and what your ears are telling you.
It's about making these untrue universal statements (e.g. "Brainworx never oversamples their stuff, but some of the UAD version of PA plugins are definitely oversampled" which is just not true!).
In that regard, I apologize if that's wrong.

But I'm pretty sure Brainworx plugs aren't oversampled. And like Jeezo stated, I believe UA plugs are oversampled so that applies to PA plugs on the UA platform as well. And they sound different.

Good luck
Old 27th January 2019 | Show parent
  #581
Gear Guru
 
Jeezo's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingresso ➡️
Yeah, maybe it's more to do with the DSP rather than the plugin itself. But then that leaves me wondering how they manage to oversample plugins that don't have an oversampling option in the first place. Like is it possible to just externally oversample a plugin without actually coding it into it?
Yep a plugin is made to wrk at several sample rate , o you oversample pre plugin and downsample after the plugin , this way the calcaultion and treatment is done with exellence ...

To clarify ....Working at 48K isn't the same as working at 96k and then downsample or export the porject at 48k after treatment ...
Old 28th January 2019
  #582
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
The native Vitalizer doesn't null it's own on my system. From my experience this rarely happens with plugins. It could be from PT delay compensation issues to sort of an intentional "randomizing" effect. Maybe we are here discussing sex amongst angels and the developers probably laugh their asses of reading Gearslutz.

Since we are talking about the Vitalizer, I like it's low end. I like it so much I got a hardware piece, which is nice as well but mine sounds significantly different than the plugin. As a result I kept the plugin because I like it quite a lot. Had similar experience with the EQ2, but ended up selling both the software and the pair of hardware as well.
Old 28th January 2019 | Show parent
  #583
Lives for gear
 
stinkyfingers's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacertotambem ➡️
The native Vitalizer doesn't null it's own on my system. From my experience this rarely happens with plugins. It could be from PT delay compensation issues to sort of an intentional "randomizing" effect.
nulls for me. nothing "special" about vitalizer at all in regards to randomness or analog behavior. pretty cheap/generic. i'm finding that with most PA stuff...underwhelming to say the least.

Last edited by stinkyfingers; 28th January 2019 at 10:37 AM..
Old 28th January 2019 | Show parent
  #584
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyfingers ➡️
nulls for me. nothing "special" about vitalizer at all in regards to randomness or analog behavior. pretty cheap/generic. i'm finding that with most PA stuff...underwhelming to say the least.
At the default setting it nulls in my system, but once I turn any knob, matched settings will no longer null. That includes loading presets. My guess is PT delay compensation.

Interesting that you don't like the Vitalizer. I prefer the plugin over my Vitalizer hardware. I did change the tubes once I was sure that was the case. After trying a few tubes it sounds nice but still very different from the plugin.
Old 28th January 2019
  #585
Gear Guru
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Honestly the best bx plug ins to me are Vertigo. I'd be interested to see if Vertigo re-models the bx emulations. They made a big deal about how true they were to the hardware.

I wouldn't take oversampling as a panacea for quality. Some developers forgo it since it introduces it's own share of artifacts, unless I'm mistaken. I do assume a lot of work goes into development so it'd be interesting to here someone from bx on here...... Dirk used to be active, did he just bug out of this forum?

As far as bx/UAD there is a big difference with, sound changing radically and slightly. If something doesn't null completely that is probably very slight between native and UAD.....
YouTube
Old 28th January 2019 | Show parent
  #586
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
It's normal. Look at Waves throughout the years. The condemning started slow till it reached its current state, but the truth is there are lots of hit makers using Waves out there. It's minor. To each their own.
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #587
Gear Nut
 
phaz's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhelixK ➡️
I like the thick strokes you did for the internal side-chain plot, perhaps even better if using 4 different basic colors.

But, I’m afraid colors in the Preset list have been mixed up(!) also wrong in manual pg.11 (I’ve reported this to PA).

It can be verified by listening, and/or by using a sine sweep and then simply look at the bounced waveform to see where compression roughly occur. Also there are more advanced and precise methods to show the transfer-curves. I've found the eq curves of Preset 2 is different than on the plot.

Here’s the side-chain preset list, with corresponding colors:
Thanks again for this.
I pushed the concept further and drawn the REAL output curves.
You can see the real output curve of the compressor, and that preset 2 is different from PA's curves.
You can see too that something is happenning at 15000Hz. May be the result of some aliasing. I observed that the higher the Gain Reduction, the higher the Aliasing.

One thing I understood too is that these curves are NOT SC-curves. I mean that these are not the EQ applied to the Side Chain. These are the "opposites". I was personnally misunderstanding..
Attached Thumbnails
SPL IRON mastering compressor by Brainworx-pa-spl-iron-eq-curves.jpg  
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #588
Lives for gear
 
biksonije's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by phaz ➡️
Thanks again for this.
I pushed the concept further and drawn the REAL output curves.
You can see the real output curve of the compressor, and that preset 2 is different from PA's curves.
You can see too that something is happenning at 15000Hz. May be the result of some aliasing. I observed that the higher the Gain Reduction, the higher the Aliasing.

One thing I understood too is that these curves are NOT SC-curves. I mean that these are not the EQ applied to the Side Chain. These are the "opposites". I was personnally misunderstanding..
Thank you for taking time and drawing Curves. I am very interested in what will PA and SPL going to say regarding this issues. Maybe they made those at some aaprox. level? Who knows. Maybe they had those Curves made in even higher resolution but as any curve, you need to reduce it to as less possible number of points as possible to have a smooth body. So, we'll see...

A few words for those who don't exactly understand what are those SC EQ Curves there for. Those are NOT SC Curves per se. They are pre-made EQ Curves which are there for "triggering" Compression in a full range audio spectrum. There are places where Compressor (well, the whole IRON as a device/plugin) will react harder (more, heavier) while on others it will react lighter (less, easier).

Krešo

PS: I am also waiting their response on thos matter!
Old 29th January 2019 | Show parent
  #589
Gear Maniac
 
PhelixK's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by phaz ➡️
Thanks again for this.
I pushed the concept further and drawn the REAL output curves.
You can see the real output curve of the compressor, and that preset 2 is different from PA's curves.
You can see too that something is happenning at 15000Hz. May be the result of some aliasing. I observed that the higher the Gain Reduction, the higher the Aliasing.

One thing I understood too is that these curves are NOT SC-curves. I mean that these are not the EQ applied to the Side Chain. These are the "opposites". I was personnally misunderstanding..
Very close to my results, and yes the emphasis is the opposite) I checked using 96kHz. For 2 and 3 I also have the little bump at 500hz, but not the scramble at 15~16kHz. High SR is better.

– still haven't heard from PA about this, maybe they got lost at NAMM?!
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #590
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhelixK ➡️
Very close to my results, and yes the emphasis is the opposite) I checked using 96kHz. For 2 and 3 I also have the little bump at 500hz, but not the scramble at 15~16kHz. High SR is better.

– still haven't heard from PA about this, maybe they got lost at NAMM?!
I’ve been waiting on a ticket regarding Iron for like 2 weeks.

EDIT: I just got a response. It looks like they’ve got several reports on the aliasing. Mine was how audible it became after having 3 or 4 instances across a track. I get the impression they’ll look in to it and take it seriously now. Hopefully that means a fix is coming quick.
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #591
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by biksonije ➡️
Thank you for taking time and drawing Curves. I am very interested in what will PA and SPL going to say regarding this issues. .
PA will say nothing and worse yet, do nothing about these issues. No issues exist and you will have to use the plugs as is. This is the modus operandi PA have adopted pretty much since the bx-console metering non-issue blew up. That never did get fixed, did it???
Old 30th January 2019
  #592
Lives for gear
 
rojhmusic's Avatar
 
PA doesnt fix anything major. So dont buy anything bad in the first place. If you tested it and it sounds good to you buy it. But dont expect major changes over it. Thats how PA works.
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #593
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by STSQ ➡️
PA will say nothing and worse yet, do nothing about these issues. No issues exist and you will have to use the plugs as is. This is the modus operandi PA have adopted pretty much since the bx-console metering non-issue blew up. That never did get fixed, did it???
Actually they improved the meters in one of the last updates (at least on my system). I was one of the annoyed customers who was told it's Apple's fault.

The SSLs are still a bit laggier than the N for me, but a major improvement from the pre-SSL releases which were lagging a full second behind on any project with more than 2 tracks.
Old 30th January 2019
  #594
Lives for gear
 
biksonije's Avatar
 
Gee guys,

sometimes I really can't make a distinction are we as a people, as a human beings, here to only bitch and moan? Bitch and moan about tiniest differences in Curves (for this matter, or differences between PA and UA version of the same plugin) and how precisely they are done and/or generated. And how they affect the absolutely the best mix and production of this century ghat almost came out of XYZ Factory bit only if they coded the plugin correctly. If only they were 100% the same or 100% this or that. I am sorry but this is the image radiating from here.

I mean, I am that certain that I could have my hand placed on a table for cutting on the elbow if 1% here actually bought their (this or any, or most of it anyway) software, use it profesionally on a day to day basis and those differences in Curves from Manual to some analyzer screenshot have that much impact on a project that costed somebody's livelihood, egzistance or career.

I, for one, can't hear nor feel that tiny sh***t details and after a long days work all I'm interested in is how my sonic image changes when I place this plugin or next on my Master Bus. Am I worried have they (sellers, coders, manufacturers) provided me (us) with some nicely done package with realistic sh***t GUI and nothing underneath? Yes! I would be fool not to! But I listen and test. Am I the greatest and most precised ear on this planet? Nope! But if that dog can do the trick in my room then, oh well, with or without sunny glasses (hyper analyzers), then I will think hard do I need it and eventually go an buy it.

What if I stumble uppn dicrepancies like this Curves for instance after the faxt? Oh well, I can write to my Tech Support my findings. There are still a few good people left I am sure!

Sorry girls & boys for this longer post.

Just wanted to take this off my chest!

Krešo
Old 30th January 2019 | Show parent
  #595
Lives for gear
 
musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by biksonije ➡️
Gee guys,

sometimes I really can't make a distinction are we as a people, as a human beings, here to only bitch and moan? Bitch and moan about tiniest differences in Curves (for this matter, or differences between PA and UA version of the same plugin) and how precisely they are done and/or generated. And how they affect the absolutely the best mix and production of this century ghat almost came out of XYZ Factory bit only if they coded the plugin correctly. If only they were 100% the same or 100% this or that. I am sorry but this is the image radiating from here.

I mean, I am that certain that I could have my hand placed on a table for cutting on the elbow if 1% here actually bought their (this or any, or most of it anyway) software, use it profesionally on a day to day basis and those differences in Curves from Manual to some analyzer screenshot have that much impact on a project that costed somebody's livelihood, egzistance or career.

I, for one, can't hear nor feel that tiny sh***t details and after a long days work all I'm interested in is how my sonic image changes when I place this plugin or next on my Master Bus. Am I worried have they (sellers, coders, manufacturers) provided me (us) with some nicely done package with realistic sh***t GUI and nothing underneath? Yes! I would be fool not to! But I listen and test. Am I the greatest and most precised ear on this planet? Nope! But if that dog can do the trick in my room then, oh well, with or without sunny glasses (hyper analyzers), then I will think hard do I need it and eventually go an buy it.

What if I stumble uppn dicrepancies like this Curves for instance after the faxt? Oh well, I can write to my Tech Support my findings. There are still a few good people left I am sure!

Sorry girls & boys for this longer post.

Just wanted to take this off my chest!

Krešo
Nothing to apologize for as you hit the nail on the head. I've never seen such nitpicking over the most minute stuff that doesn't mean a damned thing. It's why Gearslutz has a reputation for a very poor signal to noise ratio. So many pseudo experts who think they know everything but don't know **** from shinola.
Old 31st January 2019
  #596
Lives for gear
 
biksonije's Avatar
 
Hey Musicmann, hey all!

Those who know - just know. And they will find themselves. And know to just go forward in a good and posiive way. A true way. There are still some pretty fabulous, smart, intelligent people here and I really like reading their insights or ideas, answers, tips and findings. Sweet! Don't give up on this GS Forum because it is good. I really believe that!

Also, I am still very interested in PA's reply on this matter we talked about regarding Curves and their discrepancies. Why the heck not?!

I only apologized for long and boring post for most of you guys.

So, keep on making grear stuff and hanging around here!

Krešo
Old 31st January 2019 | Show parent
  #597
Lives for gear
 
musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by biksonije ➡️
Hey Musicmann, hey all!

Those who know - just know. And they will find themselves. And know to just go forward in a good and posiive way. A true way. There are still some pretty fabulous, smart, intelligent people here and I really like reading their insights or ideas, answers, tips and findings. Sweet! Don't give up on this GS Forum because it is good. I really believe that!

Also, I am still very interested in PA's reply on this matter we talked about regarding Curves and their discrepancies. Why the heck not?!

I only apologized for long and boring post for most of you guys.

So, keep on making grear stuff and hanging around here!

Krešo
The problem here is the trolls like to insert their so-called expertise wherever they want to. And if you call them on their musings they just make things even worse. I only originally came here as an alternative forum for Digital Performer other than Motunation and the DUC (Pro Tools). I just get tired of the noise around here and any attempt to have a civil conversation is difficult at best.
Old 31st January 2019 | Show parent
  #598
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 ➡️
The problem here is the trolls like to insert their so-called expertise wherever they want to. And if you call them on their musings they just make things even worse. I only originally came here as an alternative forum for Digital Performer other than Motunation and the DUC (Pro Tools). I just get tired of the noise around here and any attempt to have a civil conversation is difficult at best.
One of GS's biggest issues is the people that basically stalk company's threads. Some act like scorned lovers who spent some money they regret. Others will literally say every new release will "be on every track/bus forever" until the best thing comes out. PA and Acustica come to mind. You have a handful of groupies arguing with a handful of people who hate on everything they do. It's weird, but it's pretty common internet etiquette unfortunately. I still like to read the threads because there's occasionally some valid points from either side. I personally think Acustica is extremely overrated and pushed by the same 10 guys on almost every production forum, but I don't need to go into the new release threads and express that. I just don't buy it. I'll demo them, and either buy or pass. Simple as that. I like PA, but I've definitely got suckered into a few duds. Just have to be more discerning with your wallet.
Old 31st January 2019 | Show parent
  #599
Lives for gear
 
musicman691's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeatsWilsonian ➡️
One of GS's biggest issues is the people that basically stalk company's threads. Some act like scorned lovers who spent some money they regret. Others will literally say every new release will "be on every track/bus forever" until the best thing comes out. PA and Acustica come to mind. You have a handful of groupies arguing with a handful of people who hate on everything they do. It's weird, but it's pretty common internet etiquette unfortunately. I still like to read the threads because there's occasionally some valid points from either side. I personally think Acustica is extremely overrated and pushed by the same 10 guys on almost every production forum, but I don't need to go into the new release threads and express that. I just don't buy it. I'll demo them, and either buy or pass. Simple as that. I like PA, but I've definitely got suckered into a few duds. Just have to be more discerning with your wallet.
I could never get all the hype about Acustica - never hear about them over on the DUC or Motunation. They're just another plugin developer. PA has some pretty good stuff and sure there are some duds and that's why I like demos. Has saved me money more than a few times.

Sure there may be valid points on both sides of the arguments here but it's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. Especially when they start arguing minutiae that no one cares about.
Old 31st January 2019 | Show parent
  #600
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by musicman691 ➡️
Sure there may be valid points on both sides of the arguments here but it's difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. Especially when they start arguing minutiae that no one cares about.
Well some people certainly care about it. The little things one person won't notice are absolute dealbreakers for others. I think instrument and music equipment talk has always kinda been like this. But I'd bet we're all guilty of being soured on a company forever and lashing out in a forum at some point (looking at you Akai ).

Anyway, how's the SPL Iron treating everyone? lol. I'm either pulling the trigger today with my HH discount or passing. I'm still in the "like it a lot on some things/not sure how much I'll actually use it" camp.
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