Soundtheory announces Gullfoss plug-in at NAMM 2018 - Page 38 - Gearspace.com
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Soundtheory announces Gullfoss plug-in at NAMM 2018
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1111
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mljung's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atell ➡️

So this first week of the "soft launch" will focus on identifying any bugs. The "mass launch" will follow in a few days.

Andreas

P.S. The only issue we have found so far is one with Wavelab 10. If anyone is experiencing any bugs, please let us know so that we can fix them right away.
I can confirm the bug in WL10 - seems to be vst3 only... (Win10)

::
Mads
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1112
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atell ➡️
You can do that and you will get that resolution internally, it's just not displayed. Some hosts have the ability to link external UI controllers to a parameter or allow finer control as part of their automation handling. Which host are you using?

Andreas
Thanks for your response Andreas. I’m using Logic, Pro Tools and Ableton mostly.

It’s easier to see what’s happening now we can zoom in but I can’t believe it’s been doing that all along and it’s only that the text doesn’t change. I appreciate all the work that has undoubtably gone into the plug-in and I mean absolutely no disrespect whatsoever but I have to say this is a real head scratcher. It raises a bunch of questions about why this parameter change isn’t displayed/accessible and what that even really means because it so obviously affects the ability to use this as the professional tool that it is. For example:

RECALL-ABILITY: I want to see at a glance what setting I’ve chosen (so that I can return back to that setting if I make a change or want to copy it etc), not an approximation of the nearest whole number. What use is that? I might not even remember that I’d left it on an in-between setting and move it on another day not realising I was even making a change at all. IK Tape does this and it’s a pain in the arse. If I can change the sound there should be visual feedback on exactly what change has taken place. From setting A to setting B.

AUTOMATION: if I can move the controls in a fine amount I should be able to automate by a fine amount too, perhaps even a finer amount. I’ve basically never automated gullfoss because the change felt too coarse. You say an external controller may be able to achieve this, but why not the plugin itself? I love how Tokyo Dawn implement this in their plugins. Every control is automatable to 4 decimal places. It’s brilliant. I don’t necessarily “need” that much fine control but it means there are no big jumps. Just smooth automation tracking and control that can be relied upon. What use is fine control if it can’t be accessed for automation? In fact, what would even happen in that situation? For example: If I select a setting somewhere between 1 and 2 and then turn on automation does the setting just snap to the nearest whole number thus undoing my finely set control? Or does it somehow retain its in-between state? I would assume not.

I don’t want to come across as ungrateful for this new update, I absolutely appreciate it, but if this is basically just a graphical change it’s an absolute stone cold no brainer. Just add a decimal point. What a bizarre Easter egg.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1113
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by galaydees ➡️
Almost seems like a competition to see who can use the lowest values of recover/tame.
A value of around 7 or 8 (tame or recover) seems to make a change of around 1dB peak, quite a lot for mastering although that figure probably depends on the material and obviously the exclusion bandpass. A value of 1 is basically doing nothing. So for mastering I have around 5 or 6 numbers to choose from, yet the scale goes to 200.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1114
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssamson ➡️
RECALL-ABILITY: I want to see at a glance what setting I’ve chosen (so that I can return back to that setting if I make a change or want to copy it etc), not an approximation of the nearest whole number. What use is that? I might not even remember that I’d left it on an in-between setting and move it on another day not realising I was even making a change at all. IK Tape does this and it’s a pain in the arse. If I can change the sound there should be visual feedback on exactly what change has taken place. From setting A to setting B.
I understand it is not ideal, but you can always store the setting and it will be recalled perfectly. You can also use the host's alternative slider interface to access a higher resolution value.

Quote:
AUTOMATION: if I can move the controls in a fine amount I should be able to automate by a fine amount too, perhaps even a finer amount. I’ve basically never automated gullfoss because the change felt too coarse. You say an external controller may be able to achieve this, but why not the plugin itself? I love how Tokyo Dawn implement this in their plugins. Every control is automatable to 4 decimal places. It’s brilliant. I don’t necessarily “need” that much fine control but it means there are no big jumps. Just smooth automation tracking and control that can be relied upon. What use is fine control if it can’t be accessed for automation? In fact, what would even happen in that situation? For example: If I select a setting somewhere between 1 and 2 and then turn on automation does the setting just snap to the nearest whole number thus undoing my finely set control? Or does it somehow retain its in-between state? I would assume not.
I think you may have misunderstood what I said. Automation is available with full resolution, which is why I suggested to use automation controls if you need the resolution.

Quote:
I don’t want to come across as ungrateful for this new update, I absolutely appreciate it, but if this is basically just a graphical change it’s an absolute stone cold no brainer. Just add a decimal point. What a bizarre Easter egg.
It's not quite a no-brainer. Adding a decimal point requires quite some changes in the user interface design. It's more work than you would expect. It's on my list for a 2.0 update, which will likely receive a UI overhaul.

Andreas
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1115
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atell ➡️
There was a problem with the old algorithm that could introduce temporal aliasing, but only when the EQ was working with high gain differences. The new algorithm is avoiding the origin of this issue, so it cannot happen anymore.

So if you experienced any issues before, they should be eliminated and not only "way less noticeable". Do you experience otherwise?

Thanks,

Andreas
Apologies, to clarify it seems pretty transparent in terms of the filtering but does have a sort of sheen to it. Which I like! Before it was a bit “Pumpy” for want of a better term.
I’ve not had a lot of time to experiment but initial reaction is very positive to the changes. Thanks
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1116
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atell ➡️
I understand it is not ideal, but you can always store the setting and it will be recalled perfectly. You can also use the host's alternative slider interface to access a higher resolution value.



I think you may have misunderstood what I said. Automation is available with full resolution, which is why I suggested to use automation controls if you need the resolution.



It's not quite a no-brainer. Adding a decimal point requires quite some changes in the user interface design. It's more work than you would expect. It's on my list for a 2.0 update, which will likely receive a UI overhaul.

Andreas
Thank you Andreas. I’m glad it’s on the radar for 2.0 and I appreciate that these things are often more complex than they appear.

I will check the alternative control view in Logic when I’m back in the studio tomorrow but I already checked the automation and that isn’t working, ie. it’s only using whole numbers for me, no fine resolution.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1117
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssamson ➡️
Thank you Andreas. I’m glad it’s on the radar for 2.0 and I appreciate that these things are often more complex than they appear.

I will check the alternative control view in Logic when I’m back in the studio tomorrow but I already checked the automation and that isn’t working, ie. it’s only using whole numbers for me, no fine resolution.
Ok, I will look into it, too. I'm afraid we may have disabled fine resolution changes altogether at some point and put it on the list of things to do properly. Unfortunately, I don't remember without looking into the codebase.

Andreas
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1118
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
The below two things as documented in the manual do not work for me. It has been that way since I started using Gullfoss like a year ago or so. I am just now getting around to reporting.

I am using Windows 10. Ableton Live 11.
Quote:
When a parameter is highlighted, the up/down arrow keys on your keyboard may also be utilized to change the value with the smallest possible granularity.
Quote:
You also have the option to manually type an acceptable number followed by pressing the enter key.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1119
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 ➡️
The below two things as documented in the manual do not work for me. It has been that way since I started using Gullfoss like a year ago or so. I am just now getting around to reporting.

I am using Windows 10. Ableton Live 11.
Yeah, this is a difficult topic. Keyboard entry requires the host's help. If the host does not forward the keyboard messages it is receiving, then there's nothing we can do about it. It's worth trying a different plugin format. Sometimes VST3 works better than VST2 and on the Mac AU may be the proper choice. Some hosts also have a way of enabling keyboard forwarding for all or select plugins. Finally, some hosts may require the plugin window to have the keyboard focus. In this case you have to first click into the plugin, or sometimes even into the window decoration of the plugin and then highlight the parameter.

Andreas
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1120
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I started working with the latest update last nite on a Mastering session.

First ... I can say that the QUALITY settings do seem to be better. This is the first time I was able to use the Highest setting.
This, even though my Recover/Tame settings are still in single digit territory. Whatever ... glad it sound better ... not worse

2. I did not know about the 'Fine Resolution' capabilities ?!?

I use Reaper a lot for the brunt of Mastering processes ... then fly to HOFA DDP-Pro.

I have to agree with other's comments ... the difference between Interger values in the single digit range is significant enough.
It may be nice to have 'decimal' values ... but I can also appreciate that I can get very meticulous at times ... there is a tradeoff.

anyway ... Mastering, I really like the smallest dB scale ... is there a way to Save that setting as Default ?

3. Finally, the Mousewheel works to change setting values [don't know about the up/down arrows, as that never worked before].

4. Any plan for internal Gain Compensation ? I use a 'bookend' GC plugin for most every plug ... with Gullfoss, getting back to Unity is only a few 1/10 dB so not a big deal .... mostly asking for a Friend.

Again ... this has been a very nice Update. Gullfoss does for me that nice little realtime correction for when I need a Track to have a 'Polished' sound.

Thanks
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1121
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins ➡️
anyway ... Mastering, I really like the smallest dB scale ... is there a way to Save that setting as Default ?
There will be a setting for the default scale. It didn't make it into the 1.9.0 release because we had other priorities.

Quote:
3. Finally, the Mousewheel works to change setting values [don't know about the up/down arrows, as that never worked before].
That addition is not new. It has been working for a while. Be aware that mouse-wheel and automation don't play well together, because mouse-wheel gestures do not have a well-defined beginning or ending.

Quote:
4. Any plan for internal Gain Compensation ? I use a 'bookend' GC plugin for most every plug ... with Gullfoss, getting back to Unity is only a few 1/10 dB so not a big deal .... mostly asking for a Friend.
Gullfoss preserves perceived loudness. This is what you actually want when you say "gain compensated", that it sounds equally loud before and after. Also, because loudness is a feature of perception, you need a model of auditory perception to calculate and compensate for it. Because that is what Gullfoss is built upon, the loudness compensation is better (as in more precise and closer to actual human perception) than what other gain compensation plugins or techniques allow. In particular, the ISO loudness units (LU/LUFS) measure average loudness over a certain integration duration. We can measure loudness instantaneously, making the compensation also much more meaningful.

So, just rely on what Gullfoss is doing, don't use other methods for loudness compensation and you should be good.

Andreas
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1122
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Is the demo the new version already? Thanks
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1123
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacertotambem ➡️
Is the demo the new version already? Thanks
The trial and the fully licensed version are the same download, the only difference is the license you use to activate it. So yes, if you download Gullfoss from our website now, you get the latest version.

Andreas

P.S. For those having the Wavelab issue: I've just finished fixing it and we will probably have 1.9.1 out soon.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1124
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Gainmatch with long RMS calculation works great. Usually only ever moves .1db anyway.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1125
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atell ➡️
Gullfoss preserves perceived loudness. This is what you actually want when you say "gain compensated", that it sounds equally loud before and after. Also, because loudness is a feature of perception, you need a model of auditory perception to calculate and compensate for it. Because that is what Gullfoss is built upon, the loudness compensation is better (as in more precise and closer to actual human perception) than what other gain compensation plugins or techniques allow. In particular, the ISO loudness units (LU/LUFS) measure average loudness over a certain integration duration. We can measure loudness instantaneously, making the compensation also much more meaningful.
That could be an excellent future product for yourselves! There is always lots of talk about loudness compensation and it’s obviously very important. I have and use ablm and gainmatch but if gullfoss can make those loudness calculations instantaneously and highly accurately you could really be on to a winner there. Just my 2 cents.
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1126
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by atell ➡️

P.S. For those having the Wavelab issue: I've just finished fixing it and we will probably have 1.9.1 out soon.
Great stuff
Old 3 weeks ago | Show parent
  #1127
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by atell ➡️
Ok, I will look into it, too. I'm afraid we may have disabled fine resolution changes altogether at some point and put it on the list of things to do properly. Unfortunately, I don't remember without looking into the codebase.

Andreas
I just had a look at the Controls only view in logic and I'm afraid it's the same; no fine resolution control.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1128
Lives for gear
 
Fleer's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I have to say I have rarely seen a developer so dedicated and interactive. Kudos.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1129
Gear Addict
 
Gullfoss 1.9.1 is available on our website www.soundtheory.com/support. It contains a fix for working properly with Wavelab 10 and adds a user preference setting for the default gain axis scaling.

Andreas
Old 1 week ago
  #1130
Gear Addict
 
@ atell (and others)

I've been demoing Gullfoss and mostly liking what it does. Being an audio nerd, I felt the need to run it through a spectrum test to see if it's producing unwanted noise. If a plugin demonstrated unwanted noise I won't necessarily reject it, if it's doing something as interesting and useful as Gullfoss. I tested with a real world synth sound that has nice clean lines. The test showed what looked like significant IMD, even when all controls are set to zero. Not always a problem. IMD happens in some audio processing. I have other plugins I use all the time, which are modulating the signal in one way or another, that also show IMD, mostly at lower but on some settings at similar levels. I'm not discarding them.

Is this just an expected side effect of how Gullfoss works? There's nothing else out there quite like it so nothing to compare it to in this test.

Not wanting to abandon it yet, and curious to see how much audible IMD it was creating (since it changes the sound enough to possibly hide it if low level) I exported a loop with Gulfoss bypassed and one with it on but all controls set to 0 (which still produces about the same level of IMD in SPAN.) And got unexpected results.

I thought using the exports out of phase would show a very low level noise, nothing to worry about. Instead, phase inverting the "zero level processed" one - where Gullfoss showed nothing on the UI but seemed to be affecting the sound anyway, and playing it back with the clean copy, the percussion completely disappeared other than the first drum/hi-hat hit which starts and gets sharply cut off. No trace of it for the rest of the loop. The bass/mid synth sound is prominently audible, though sounding very different to either the unprocessed or "zero level processed" version, indicating Gullfoss did significant processing with everything set to zero. The wave forms look distinctly different as well even at small size.

Is this also expected, that "no processing" is never a thing unless bypassed. So even though the UI shows no action and all controls are at zero it's still intended that it changes the sound?

These tests were done in Ableton Live 11, exported at 48KHz 24bit (to match my project settings.)

I'll miss the sale window now since today is the last day but until I know more about what I am seeing and hearing I think I have to hit pause on the purchase. Hopefully more listening tests, and some insight here from the creators, will help me make a final decision before the demo runs out.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1131
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by strange loop ➡️
@ atell (and others)

I've been demoing Gullfoss and mostly liking what it does. Being an audio nerd, I felt the need to run it through a spectrum test to see if it's producing unwanted noise. If a plugin demonstrated unwanted noise I won't necessarily reject it, if it's doing something as interesting and useful as Gullfoss. I tested with a real world synth sound that has nice clean lines. The test showed what looked like significant IMD, even when all controls are set to zero. Not always a problem. IMD happens in some audio processing. I have other plugins I use all the time, which are modulating the signal in one way or another, that also show IMD, mostly at lower but on some settings at similar levels. I'm not discarding them.

Is this just an expected side effect of how Gullfoss works? There's nothing else out there quite like it so nothing to compare it to in this test.

Not wanting to abandon it yet, and curious to see how much audible IMD it was creating (since it changes the sound enough to possibly hide it if low level) I exported a loop with Gulfoss bypassed and one with it on but all controls set to 0 (which still produces about the same level of IMD in SPAN.) And got unexpected results.

I thought using the exports out of phase would show a very low level noise, nothing to worry about. Instead, phase inverting the "zero level processed" one - where Gullfoss showed nothing on the UI but seemed to be affecting the sound anyway, and playing it back with the clean copy, the percussion completely disappeared other than the first drum/hi-hat hit which starts and gets sharply cut off. No trace of it for the rest of the loop. The bass/mid synth sound is prominently audible, though sounding very different to either the unprocessed or "zero level processed" version, indicating Gullfoss did significant processing with everything set to zero. The wave forms look distinctly different as well even at small size.

Is this also expected, that "no processing" is never a thing unless bypassed. So even though the UI shows no action and all controls are at zero it's still intended that it changes the sound?

These tests were done in Ableton Live 11, exported at 48KHz 24bit (to match my project settings.)

I'll miss the sale window now since today is the last day but until I know more about what I am seeing and hearing I think I have to hit pause on the purchase. Hopefully more listening tests, and some insight here from the creators, will help me make a final decision before the demo runs out.
That doesn't sound right at all. You should not see any distortion at all and certainly no change (other than floating point rounding errors at around -144dBfs) at neutral settings.

I will run a few tests to see if there's anything broken with the latest release, but I strongly doubt that something like that could have slipped through our testing procedures.

In the meantime, please verify that there's no error on your side, like bad latency compensation in the null-test, etc.

Andreas
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1132
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by atell ➡️
That doesn't sound right at all. You should not see any distortion at all and certainly no change (other than floating point rounding errors at around -144dBfs) at neutral settings.

I will run a few tests to see if there's anything broken with the latest release, but I strongly doubt that something like that could have slipped through our testing procedures.

In the meantime, please verify that there's no error on your side, like bad latency compensation in the null-test, etc.

Andreas
I've just performed a null-test with the latest release of both Gullfoss and Gullfoss Live in Logic Pro 10.6.2, and it came out exactly as expected: absolute silence.

So I'm not sure what's going on with your setup.

Andreas
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1133
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by atell ➡️
I've just performed a null-test with the latest release of both Gullfoss and Gullfoss Live in Logic Pro 10.6.2, and it came out exactly as expected: absolute silence.

So I'm not sure what's going on with your setup.

Andreas
Thanks for the quick response. Very much appreciated. I'm happy to hear you got a null, that's promising.

I repeated the test this time with a simple project and a control option.

- took a single synth sound, one note, long decay/release, peaking at -6.02dB
- added an instance of Kotelnikov free version, exported first bypassed then with default settings where threshold is set too high to catch the sound so no compression occurs; Kotelnikov is not an analog emulation or intended to add any sound other than that caused by the compression, so is good for this kind of test
- bypassed Kotelnikov again
- repeated with Gullfoss, first bypassed, then with everything flat
- imported the wav files into the same Live set, bypassed versions in one track, flat settings versions on another, with Live's Utility doing phase inversion on this track
- played each respective plugin's exports together
- Kotelnikov exports get -Inf on the master output, can't hear anything
- Gullfoss exports get -55.4 on the master output, and I can hear it on headphones at a reasonable volume.

Everything was exported at 48KHz (same rate as the project,) 32bit.

I think this eliminates the possibility of a general latency issue and makes it less likely to be caused by me doing something wrong (which was a definite possibility,) since if that were the case I'd expect the Kotelnikov test not to null.

It could be an issue that only occurs in Live with this plugin. If you have access to Live, I can send you my set. It was created in Live 11 but I can recreate it in Live 10 since I have both (even Live 9 if needed, I'd have to reinstall but I have a license.) I'd appreciate assistance digging into this as I really like what Gullfoss does and would like to add it to my toolkit.

I can also report a possible bug to Ableton.
Old 1 week ago
  #1134
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
By curiosity I made a test with a single tone in v1.9.2, and indeed Gullfoss either bypassed or with all settings at 0 produces a whole lot of distortion and noise, clearly audible. Not sure I had this in pre-1.9 versions.
Test was made with VST3 on Windows.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1135
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by soupiraille ➡️
By curiosity I made a test with a single tone in v1.9.2, and indeed Gullfoss either bypassed or with all settings at 0 produces a whole lot of distortion and noise, clearly audible. Not sure I had this in pre-1.9 versions.
Test was made with VST3 on Windows.
If it's producing distortion when bypassed that's very odd. I did not have that. I can't see how that would happen unless your DAW is not really bypassing (or you made a mistake and thought you were bypassed when you were not)
Old 1 week ago
  #1136
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
I am equally surprised that 'Bypass' does not actually bypass Gullfoss -- I've tried another VST3 from another vendor and soft bypass does work, so I guess my DAW (Studio One v5.2.1) is not the culprit, at least at first sight.

Anyways, still, Gullfoss enabled and all settings at 0 produces a fair amount of distortion and noise...
I'd be glad to help you Andreas with any further information that could help.
Old 1 week ago
  #1137
Gear Addict
 
Okay, so more weirdness.

In my tests I was bypassing using Ableton Live's bypass/disable plugin button provided in the Live instrument/effects view. This results in no processing at all. I compared the export with Gullfoss bypassed using the Live bypass/disable button and one with Gullfoss removed from the set and they nulled to infinity.

I then compared those exports with one made using the bypass button on the main Gullfoss plugin UI. These do not null - they have residual audio at -55.7dB. So the bypass button in the Gullfoss UI is not, for me, bypassing the plugin.

But the internal bypass is doing something to the processing - because the export done using the Gullfoss internal bypass and the one not bypassed but set flat also do not null, and at a different volume, -67.8dB. This one I can't hear at my usual headphone volume level but the meters show clearly there's sound there.

All of this done in the same set where the bypassed and activated but flat "doing nothing" Kotelnikov pair acts as a control and nulls perfectly.

I'm still ready to believe this is limited to certain hosts and it nulls perfectly in some, but since Live is what I use, this is a disappointment, and I hope it can be figured out and fixed.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1138
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
I have my doubts about Gullfoss but I have experienced similar issue in Pro Tools and I came to the conclusion that for some plugins the native bypass will alter slightly the delay compensation. Not enough to mess with the groove at all but enough to avoid nulling. You may try printing and realigning the clips to verify.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1139
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I use Ableton Live and Gullfoss a lot. I just did a NULL test. Gullfoss and Gullfoss Live do NOT null when either of these conditions are true:

-Bypassed in the Gullfoss plugin
-NOT bypassed but all controls set to defaults
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #1140
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone1313 ➡️
I use Ableton Live and Gullfoss a lot. I just did a NULL test. Gullfoss and Gullfoss Live do NOT null when either of these conditions are true:

-Bypassed in the Gullfoss plugin
-NOT bypassed but all controls set to defaults
Like I said above, you are expected to see some floating-point round-off error noise-floor. The magnitude may depend on the host's audio bus decision. It should be entirely non-critical for any practical purpose in any case.

So, what magnitude of noise are you seeing?

Andreas
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