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Avid Pro Tools Operator Post Certification?
Old 11th September 2012
  #1
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Avid Pro Tools Operator Post Certification?

I'm looking for an entry-level position (or internship) in the area of audio post production for film/tv/web. I was wondering if getting Avid Pro Tools Operator Post certified would help. I like the idea of learning more and brushing up on my skills, but it is an expensive course. I know this topic has been covered before on GS but thought I'd start another thread anyway. I'd really like to know if this will help me find work. Also, will this additional knowledge be helpful if and when I do find a job?
Old 11th September 2012
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Pedantic Sound's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Short answer is no and no. Especially for entry level positions it's not even close to worth the money.
Old 11th September 2012
  #3
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Henchman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
As pedantic said. Won't help one teensy tiny bit.
I personally don't know anybody that has a certification.
Certified insane, maybe.
Old 11th September 2012
  #4
Deleted e479b20
Guest
In post everyone assumes you know PT inside out and they hire you for your creative skills, ability to work against dead-lines and "social compatibility" with clients and other colleagues.
To compare it to the normal world:
If you hop into a cab you wouldn't ask the driver for his driver's license, you want him to know the streets and how to get you to your home as fast as possible.
Old 11th September 2012
  #5
Lives for gear
 
Mundox's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Spend the money on a Pro Tools setup and/or a decent portable setup.
And start recording and building your own SFX/atmos library. Put that on your CV. It will draw more attention than any certification you will ever have.
Details of post, you will learn on the job, or by asking here.
Old 11th September 2012
  #6
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
I have an Operator Post certificate for PT7. The fees were included in the tuition cost for the school I went to so I figured I might as well go for it. Not a single job I've worked on since then was due to having it.

-Justin
Old 11th September 2012 | Show parent
  #7
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWalkerPostAudio ➑️
I have an Operator Post certificate for PT7. The fees were included in the tuition cost for the school I went to so I figured I might as well go for it. Not a single job I've worked on since then was due to having it.

-Justin
Likewise

The cert has nothing to do with how fast you are on a system, thats down to pure practice. I think there's 3 shortcuts I didn't know about or wouldn't have come across before doing the course but that was about all I took away from it.
Old 11th September 2012 | Show parent
  #8
Deleted 966f7b3
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman ➑️
Certified insane, maybe.


I've never felt that I needed to spend the money on the certification, and given that a lot of entry-level jobs in this industry are runner positions, you won't be spending a whole lot of time in front of Pro Tools. Like others have said, spend the money on a setup and a few books (there are a ton of recommendations on the forum), then start doing it, learning as you go.
Old 14th September 2012
  #9
Gear Nut
 
mmoeding's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
No one can say for certain "this will help you get a job" or "no this will not help you at all". It all depends on the employer and how you can sell yourself. I have worked at multiple places where entry level applications were screened for certification. That doesn't mean most places do, but that COULD make the difference between you and the rest of the joes that apply for a given position. If the employer knows what the certification is then they will likely be more inclined to hire a certified individule to rule out the possibility that they will have to end up eating time hiring someone to find out they don't know how to operate the software. You just have to make the decision wether its worth it for you to spend the money on it, and if you feel like you can use it to your advantage when looking for work. Some people will and do respect and want certified employees and many many other don't give a hoot.
Old 15th September 2012
  #10
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
I don't think it will help one bit. Knowing the software and being a creative individual are entirely separate. Personality and creativity get you jobs. I work with a video editor who isn't very computer literate. His comp and desktop are a mess, and his OMFs leave a lot to be desired. But he is immensely talented and constantly churns out top notch stuff. If I were hiring a sound editor, the certification wouldn't factor in one bit.
Old 30th September 2012
  #11
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
I've never ever met anybody who knows or can use Pro Tools better than someone who has taken the courses. I have a degree in sound engineering and an MA in post production, my education put me in touch with many industry professionals. I've seen dubbing mixers and track layers who are simply hopeless at Pro tools and get by on the basics. They say things like 'oh, I did a 24 hour shift last week, it was terrible' Like I'm supposed to be impressed. The bottom line is some industry pro's, who are perfectly good dubbing mixers, would benefit from a little Pro tools training and would shave hours off their work schedule.

Whilst I agree it won't get you a job. I'd definatley recommend the courses to people who are already working.
People who teach themselves only ever learn the easy stuff, if you learn 90%, it's the last 10% that makes the difference, once you get under the hood of Pro tools there's much more than just the edit tools and transport bar.
Old 30th September 2012 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by melloj ➑️
I've never ever met anybody who knows or can use Pro Tools better than someone who has taken the courses. I have a degree in sound engineering and an MA in post production, my education put me in touch with many industry professionals. I've seen dubbing mixers and track layers who are simply hopeless at Pro tools and get by on the basics. They say things like 'oh, I did a 24 hour shift last week, it was terrible' Like I'm supposed to be impressed. The bottom line is some industry pro's, who are perfectly good dubbing mixers, would benefit from a little Pro tools training and would shave hours off their work schedule.

Whilst I agree it won't get you a job. I'd definatley recommend the courses to people who are already working.
People who teach themselves only ever learn the easy stuff, if you learn 90%, it's the last 10% that makes the difference, once you get under the hood of Pro tools there's much more than just the edit tools and transport bar.
Well, I can teach any dubbing mixer all the quick keys they'll need in a mix situation within about 5-10 minutes. You don't need to know every single one to work fast.
Anybody who is taking too long to mix, has bigger issues than knowing pro-tools. Some mixers are just slow, and "milk" the hours for overtime.
And most producers won't figure it out until they work with mixers who are efficient and don't milk it. And then they'll realize all that overtime was because of the mixer.
Old 30th September 2012
  #13
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman ➑️
As pedantic said. Won't help one teensy tiny bit.
I personally don't know anybody that has a certification.
Certified insane, maybe.
I might get certified so Mark will know someone who is certified...in Pro Tools that is.

I learned a new keystroke last week!
Old 30th September 2012 | Show parent
  #14
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by melloj ➑️
I've never ever met anybody who knows or can use Pro Tools better than someone who has taken the courses. I have a degree in sound engineering and an MA in post production, my education put me in touch with many industry professionals. I've seen dubbing mixers and track layers who are simply hopeless at Pro tools and get by on the basics. They say things like 'oh, I did a 24 hour shift last week, it was terrible' Like I'm supposed to be impressed. The bottom line is some industry pro's, who are perfectly good dubbing mixers, would benefit from a little Pro tools training and would shave hours off their work schedule.

Whilst I agree it won't get you a job. I'd definatley recommend the courses to people who are already working.
People who teach themselves only ever learn the easy stuff, if you learn 90%, it's the last 10% that makes the difference, once you get under the hood of Pro tools there's much more than just the edit tools and transport bar.
I recommend the opposite! If you cant be arsed to read the manual properly then maybe those guys SHOULD have to work 24 hour days.... !!
Old 30th September 2012 | Show parent
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by melloj ➑️
I've never ever met anybody who knows or can use Pro Tools better than someone who has taken the courses.
Ill gladly take you up on that claim anytime, anywhere.
I guarantee you Ill get the job done at the very least in the same amount of time.
Most likely Ill get it done faster, and better than your certified guy.
Old 30th September 2012 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
dr.sound's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by melloj ➑️
I've never ever met anybody who knows or can use Pro Tools better than someone who has taken the courses. I have a degree in sound engineering and an MA in post production, my education put me in touch with many industry professionals. I've seen dubbing mixers and track layers who are simply hopeless at Pro tools and get by on the basics. They say things like 'oh, I did a 24 hour shift last week, it was terrible' Like I'm supposed to be impressed. The bottom line is some industry pro's, who are perfectly good dubbing mixers, would benefit from a little Pro tools training and would shave hours off their work schedule.

Whilst I agree it won't get you a job. I'd definatley recommend the courses to people who are already working.
People who teach themselves only ever learn the easy stuff, if you learn 90%, it's the last 10% that makes the difference, once you get under the hood of Pro tools there's much more than just the edit tools and transport bar.
If you want a MA in Post, then call me in 20 years. That is what it takes to truly be a "Master". I know quite a few people who responded here. Most of them never took a course. Chris Jacobson who I work with is a "Master of Pro Tools". He never took a course. Don't believe me, just ask Pirate or Henchman or Justin Walker. The course doesn't hurt but it doesn't get you work.
Old 30th September 2012 | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound ➑️
If you want a MA in Post, then call me in 20 years. That is what it takes to truly be a "Master". I know quite a few people who responded here. Most of them never took a course. Chris Jacobson who I work with is a "Master of Pro Tools". He never took a course. Don't believe me, just ask Pirate or Henchman or Justin Walker. The course doesn't hurt but it doesn't get you work.
I think he meant BS...
Old 1st October 2012
  #18
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound ➑️
If you want a MA in Post, then call me in 20 years. That is what it takes to truly be a "Master". I know quite a few people who responded here. Most of them never took a course. Chris Jacobson who I work with is a "Master of Pro Tools". He never took a course. Don't believe me, just ask Pirate or Henchman or Justin Walker. The course doesn't hurt but it doesn't get you work.
Well I don't actually know that Chris is a master of Pro Tools. All I know is his hands move very fast over the keyboard and its one big blur. I do know stuff changes in Pro Tools during the blur. Could be Devine intervention with Chris and his Pro Tools.

Yea, Chris doesn't suck.
Old 1st October 2012
  #19
Lives for gear
 
Uncle Bob's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The only time an advanced PT certification will help get you a job is if you are going the corporate route, like being the guy who maintains all of the PT suites for Turner Broadcasting. I knew the guy who did, he flew down once a month. Also, he actually taught the PT certification classes. And the odds are that in this economy Turner has found that someone from their own staff - who doesn't have the certification - can probably do the maintenance just as well.
Old 2nd October 2012
  #20
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Never said the courses got you work. And I only mentioned my MA because it put me in touch with industry insiders where I live (as did my BSc before it), and before you start tearing my education apart, my personal one on one tutor has 57 years experience, thus I won't be calling you up in 20 years.

I am supporter of the courses in certain circumstances for certain people based on what I've seen and I stand by what I said, I've literally watched a dubbing editor create a track with the mouse and tell me the courses are a waste of time and money...
but I was being general, of course, I know there are people that are proficient in Pro tools with no training, but I don't believe those that are represent the majority.
Old 2nd October 2012
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Melloj - the guys in this post forum who are working in LA are here because they are interested in sharing their knowledge amongst peers and getting better and faster at their craft. Yes there are guys towards the top of any industry that don't upskill and ride along on past successes, but those are not the types to regularly post in forums and share knowledge and discuss things in depth like what you find here.

The guys who are using PT in LA in here are affectionately known by the product managers in SF as the "LA ProTools Mafia" ) for no other reason than their comraderie in helping each other get better at PT/their craft (and at grilling the PT product managers with consistent feedback/gripes/feature requests - anyone would think you guys band together against them??)

In my experience Melloj is correct in that most PT operators aren't as fast or knowledgeable as you folk in here. Lots of folks call themselves PT operators but they have a passing knowledge at best.

If you want to talk about the courses (rather than p$ss off the PT elite in hollywood) I'd also draw your attention to this thread elsewhere that goes into it in detail:
AVID Certification - Social Sound Design
Old 2nd October 2012 | Show parent
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by melloj ➑️
I know there are people that are proficient in Pro tools with no training, but I don't believe those that are represent the majority.
Another generalization, that is also wrong.
Old 2nd October 2012 | Show parent
  #23
Deleted 966f7b3
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent_in_Sydney ➑️
(and at grilling the PT product managers with consistent feedback/gripes/feature requests - anyone would think you guys band together against them??)
This is actually the easiest way to find a product manager at a trade show, just look for the guy being berated by a few mixers at once.

The way I see it, the certification shows you can operate Pro Tools, but doesn't say anything about you being able to do the job. I could go get certified in MS Word, but that doesn't automatically make me a best-selling writer (see the run-on sentence below).

I once worked with an intern who liked to boast about how qualified he was to run the show because he had gotten his Pro Tools certification and gone to a recording school with a big Neve console. I can't comment on his Pro Tools skills, as he never got that far, but he didn't know the first thing about signal flow, couldn't troubleshoot, and could only repeat things he had read in books without any understanding as to the "why" of things (an issue I've had with several people I've met coming out of certificate programs, but I digress...)

As others have mentioned, I'm sure there are certain situations, especially in the corporate world, where the certification can be very helpful. That said, I've never lost out on a job because I wasn't Pro Tools certified.
Old 2nd October 2012
  #24
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
I think the key to getting something from a Pro Tools class is to make sure your teacher doesn't just spend all of his time in academia but is actively involved in the industry.

Peter Cole
Proud member of the Hollywood Pro Tools Mafia
Old 2nd October 2012 | Show parent
  #25
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by piratepost ➑️
I think the key to getting something from a Pro Tools class is to make sure your teacher doesn't just spend all of his time in academia but is actively involved in the industry.

Peter Cole
Proud member of the Hollywood Pro Tools Mafia
Amen to that.
Old 2nd October 2012
  #26
Lives for gear
 
dr.sound's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Meloj,
If you have an opinion, then sign your name.
You will earn a lot more respect that way.
Old 3rd October 2012 | Show parent
  #27
Gear Head
 
thebryanparker's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by melloj ➑️
I've never ever met anybody who knows or can use Pro Tools better than someone who has taken the courses.

That's a pretty stout claim. I think my peers and I challenge each other and share and push our knowledge and application of skills pretty damn far, though since I don't know anything about the nature of the certification courses, I can't say for sure that we're not missing something major, I guess.

Do you care to define the terms of this challenge? Seems like fun. If it's a quick-draw at the OK Corral between Henchman and one of your certified, I'm definitely showing up with popcorn.


Old 3rd October 2012
  #28
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I don't see anything wrong with taking a class if that's a way you personally like to learn. I have a problem with certificates of any kind with nebulous meanings, especially those that cost the bearer a good deal of money. There are great PT classes at my local community college (cheap), for instance.

philp
Old 3rd October 2012 | Show parent
  #29
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by piratepost ➑️
I think the key to getting something from a Pro Tools class is to make sure your teacher doesn't just spend all of his time in academia but is actively involved in the industry.

Peter Cole
Proud member of the Hollywood Pro Tools Mafia
One problem is that academia many times forces an instructor, that could teach real world applications, to focus on teaching the curriculum created by the academia, so they can offer the certificate without any questions of the course material.

It's a corporate world that offers a product and it's expectations must be met. It also breeds a false sense of confidence as seen in this thread.

Any professional, in any field, understands the value of long term experience, and there are some coming out of these programs that also appreciate the time it takes to really master a DAW, and also the dynamics of everyone in recording studios, the post world, even home studios, and take the lessons/certificate as the first stepping stone.
Old 3rd October 2012 | Show parent
  #30
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camera ➑️
Any professional, in any field, understands the value of long term experience, and there are some coming out of these programs that also appreciate the time it takes to really master a DAW, and also the dynamics of everyone in recording studios, the post world, even home studios, and take the lessons/certificate as the first stepping stone.
+1!

When I took the test for the cert, at that time, that is exactly what I saw it as; a stepping stone.

You have to answer 45 out of 50 questions correctly to pass so there is little room for mistakes. You will have to memorize a lot of PT hotkeys and functionality to pass which is all good to know. But answering multiple choice questions requires no field experience and that is why it is of no value to potential employers.

Also, Avid tests have been known to have mistakes in them where correct answers are marked incorrect in their system. IMO your money would be better spent buying gear.

-Justin
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