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Film Sound Guys...How Did They Do This?
Old 4th February 2009
  #1
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oceantracks's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Film Sound Guys...How Did They Do This?

OK, so I know this is out of left field.... but.....

My kids have the DVD to "Wizard of Oz" on the other day, and it's the scene where the Scarecrow is speaking with Dorothy, and after finishing a line, just starts singing "If I Only Had a Brain." I was watching it thinking..."Wait a minute, how did they DO that?"

The song starts with no music intro, just him singing "I could while away the hours....." and on "while away" the orchestra comes in. I don't know if I'm explaining this well but for some reason the whole thing seems baffling. And of course it's the recording, he didn't sing live on set.

Anyone have any ideas?



TH
Old 4th February 2009
  #2
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🎧 10 years
I don't have it here to see and hear, but....is there a picture cut relatively soon after the orchestra comes in? If so, he probably just sang the first line or two wild -- it's not too hard to get the tempo right -- and in editing they'd just cut in the recorded track over that part of the shot, replacing the wild line. Then, for the rest of the scene, they'd shoot to playback.

This of course is speculation -- how they COULD have done it. If anyone knows what really happened, I'm happy to be corrected if necessary....
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #3
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dualflip's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Since editing direct sound on tape is the engineers nightmare, they ended up doubling everything in a studio, thus ADR was born, all movies do that these days, and they did that too back in those days, thats why you hear that dry, and "out of place" voice in almost all old movies, so im guessing they recorded the direct live sound, then recorded the orchestra and singer while watching the shot in a screen (thats actually how all film scoring is recorded), then they replaced the audio with the studio session.
If you dont know what ADR is about, let me explain a bit to you, when you watch a movie, you are not hearing what the actors recorded on stage, you are hearing the actor that recorded his voice in a studio while watching his performance. And almost every sound you hear in a movie is re-recorded in a studio, even the ambient noise, the incidentals, everything (or almost everything). So when Brad Pitt makes a movie, does he go into the studio and re-record each and every single line he said while making the film?, the answer is YES!
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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oceantracks's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip ➑️
Since editing direct sound on tape is the engineers nightmare, they ended up doubling everything in a studio, thus ADR was born, all movies do that these days, and they did that too back in those days, thats why you hear that dry, and "out of place" voice in almost all old movies, so im guessing they recorded the direct live sound, then recorded the orchestra and singer while watching the shot in a screen (thats actually how all film scoring is recorded), then they replaced the audio with the studio session.
If you dont know what ADR is about, let me explain a bit to you, when you watch a movie, you are not hearing what the actors recorded on stage, you are hearing the actor that recorded his voice in a studio while watching his performance. And almost every sound you hear in a movie is re-recorded in a studio, even the ambient noise, the incidentals, everything (or almost everything). So when Brad Pitt makes a movie, does he go into the studio and re-record each and every single line he said while making the film?, the answer is YES!

This is my guess too. I've read that this particular song had the orchestra overdubbed way later...and that another song ( a reprise of "Over the Rainbow" was recorded live on set with Judy singing to piano accompaniment, later dropped from the film.)

SO....I'm guessing that a cue note (for pitch) could have been played on piano as he was doing the final lines before the song, and he just came in singing, with piano accompaniment. Then later it was all replaced, dialog, vocals, and orchestra overdubbed. I can't think of any other way this could be done.....thanks for the input! And give it look next time you see...it's really seamless audio wise so yes it must have all been ADR...

Thanks
Tom
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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bcgood's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
That entire movie is so amazing. A complete and whole artistic and technical achievement.

I can't wait to experience it on Blue Ray.

Wizard of Oz
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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dr.sound's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip ➑️
SNIP
If you dont know what ADR is about, let me explain a bit to you, when you watch a movie, you are not hearing what the actors recorded on stage, you are hearing the actor that recorded his voice in a studio while watching his performance. And almost every sound you hear in a movie is re-recorded in a studio, even the ambient noise, the incidentals, everything (or almost everything). So when Brad Pitt makes a movie, does he go into the studio and re-record each and every single line he said while making the film?, the answer is YES!
What did he say?
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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charles maynes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound ➑️
What did he say?
he's young Marti....
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #8
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iluvatar's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip ➑️
Since editing direct sound on tape is the engineers nightmare, they ended up doubling everything in a studio, thus ADR was born, all movies do that these days, and they did that too back in those days, thats why you hear that dry, and "out of place" voice in almost all old movies, so im guessing they recorded the direct live sound, then recorded the orchestra and singer while watching the shot in a screen (thats actually how all film scoring is recorded), then they replaced the audio with the studio session.
If you dont know what ADR is about, let me explain a bit to you, when you watch a movie, you are not hearing what the actors recorded on stage, you are hearing the actor that recorded his voice in a studio while watching his performance. And almost every sound you hear in a movie is re-recorded in a studio, even the ambient noise, the incidentals, everything (or almost everything). So when Brad Pitt makes a movie, does he go into the studio and re-record each and every single line he said while making the film?, the answer is YES!
Really? That much of it is redone?

Then why do people bitch about lousy location sound if it's all going to be recut anyways?

-Dan.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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dr.sound's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes ➑️
he's young Marti....
Charles,
It's a little humor because of his response to a Post I made earlier here:
ADR opinion

and also to the fact of his above statement...heh
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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nucelar's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip ➑️
If you dont know what ADR is about, let me explain a bit to you, when you watch a movie, you are not hearing what the actors recorded on stage, you are hearing the actor that recorded his voice in a studio while watching his performance. And almost every sound you hear in a movie is re-recorded in a studio, even the ambient noise, the incidentals, everything (or almost everything). So when Brad Pitt makes a movie, does he go into the studio and re-record each and every single line he said while making the film?, the answer is YES!

I guess you only save production audio when the scene takes place in an anechoic chamber...heh
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip ➑️
. So when Brad Pitt makes a movie, does he go into the studio and re-record each and every single line he said while making the film?, the answer is YES!
I don't know where you got that information. It's very rare that an actor will re-record every line of production audio. I don't know of any major film that has been all ADR. There are many times a number of pages of dialog that need to be re-recorded, but overall, you want to keep as much production audio as possible.

Animation dialog of course is all recorded in the studio, but usually the dialog for animation is recorded prior to animating the picture.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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dualflip's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound ➑️
Charles,
It's a little humor because of his response to a Post I made earlier here:
ADR opinion

and also to the fact of his above statement...heh
HEHEHE thats a good one man!, i was like "is my english that bad??", i guess it is but i just realized what you were trying to do after looking at your other post. Cheers!!! thumbsup
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #13
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dualflip's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes ➑️
he's young Marti....
HMMM what do you mean??
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #14
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soundboy's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Marti, how long are you going to let this go on?(Rick got to it first)

Answering the OP, The songs were generally recorded on a scoring stage before the shoot. The song was played back on the shooting stage for the purposes of lip sinc. When the movie was cut together, the scoring stage version of the song was inserted into the audio track. Often times, the person you saw on screen, was not the person singing the song. An example of this, is Audry Hepburn in "My Fair Lady". That is not her singing. It's Marni Nixon. However, it is Brando singing in "Guys and Dolls". Something like 2 full days of takes of "Luck Be A Lady" cut together to make the 2 minutes of singing in the movie.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #15
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dualflip's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sanchez ➑️
I don't know where you got that information. It's very rare that an actor will re-record every line of production audio. I don't know of any major film that has been all ADR. There are many times a number of pages of dialog that need to be re-recorded, but overall, you want to keep as much production audio as possible.

Animation dialog of course is all recorded in the studio, but usually the dialog for animation is recorded prior to animating the picture.
Well it depends on the movie, for instance, european and latin american movies will go with the direct sound and almost never do any ADR, it also depends if its an "artistic" movie or a commercial one, a documentary, etc... but i was actually talking about the typical Hollywood movie of action heroes...
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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charles maynes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound ➑️
Charles,
It's a little humor because of his response to a Post I made earlier here:
ADR opinion

and also to the fact of his above statement...heh
I think there might be a language barrier as well....

I mean if his experience is not with live action, he might just be myopic with his ideas about how to solve problems.... Obviously there are many roads to Mecca...
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #17
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dualflip's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes ➑️
I think there might be a language barrier as well....

I mean if his experience is not with live action, he might just be myopic with his ideas about how to solve problems.... Obviously there are many roads to Mecca...
Well im not really into the movie business, i mean i've worked in some movies but thats not my main activity, what i said in my recent posts is what i always thought and knew, but if you guys know something i dont, please let me know, ill be happy to learn
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #18
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Etch-A-Sketch's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sanchez ➑️
I don't know of any major film that has been all ADR.
I know of one. Speed, with Keanu Reeves. 90 to 95% of that whole movie is ADR. Keanu did most of his ADR in a hotel room in Canada (forget which city) while shooting Johnny Neumonic.

But you are right, it is rare that a film is completely ADR'd. But most action films with outdoor shoots will have a substantial amount of ADR.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #19
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charles maynes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip ➑️
Well it depends on the movie, for instance, european and latin american movies will go with the direct sound and almost never do any ADR, it also depends if its an "artistic" movie or a commercial one, a documentary, etc... but i was actually talking about the typical Hollywood movie of action heroes...
having worked on a few of those myself, I can say that it is quite rare to loop more than about 30% of a films dialog- the example of this was probably the film "Twister" where a truck mounted jet engine was used for the wind effects during filming.... even with that, there were instance where production was chosen over ADR though....
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #20
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Etch-A-Sketch's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundboy ➑️
Marti, how long are you going to let this go on?(Rick got to it first)

Answering the OP, The songs were generally recorded on a scoring stage before the shoot. The song was played back on the shooting stage for the purposes of lip sinc. When the movie was cut together, the scoring stage version of the song was inserted into the audio track. Often times, the person you saw on screen, was not the person singing the song. An example of this, is Audry Hepburn in "My Fair Lady". That is not her singing. It's Marni Nixon. However, it is Brando singing in "Guys and Dolls". Something like 2 full days of takes of "Luck Be A Lady" cut together to make the 2 minutes of singing in the movie.
Ahhh you beat me to it. This is correct... Musicals usually recorded all the music first and then played back on the set while the actors lip sync'd. In some ways, very similar to the way music videos are shot today (doh!)
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #21
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charles maynes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch ➑️
I know of one. Speed, with Keanu Reeves. 90 to 95% of that whole movie is ADR. Keanu did most of his ADR in a hotel room in Canada (forget which city) while shooting Johnny Neumonic.

But you are right, it is rare that a film is completely ADR'd. But most action films with outdoor shoots will have a substantial amount of ADR.
If that much ADR was used, it was probably for creative purposes vs technical faults....

I would say that is an exception though....
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #22
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charles maynes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch ➑️
Ahhh you beat me to it. This is correct... Musicals usually recorded all the music first and then played back on the set while the actors lip sync'd. In some ways, very similar to the way music videos are shot today (doh!)
they would kind of have to- especially for Musicals....
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #23
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minister's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch ➑️
I know of one. Speed, with Keanu Reeves. 90 to 95% of that whole movie is ADR. Keanu did most of his ADR in a hotel room in Canada (forget which city) while shooting Johnny Neumonic.
What's the best Hotel chain for doing ADR?

(This is GS afterall..........)
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #24
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Etch-A-Sketch's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes ➑️
If that much ADR was used, it was probably for creative purposes vs technical faults....

I would say that is an exception though....
Nope. It was because of technical issues. I'm friend's with Vickie, she was the ADR supervisor for the movie. She told me about it.

They knew going in, before shooting began, that they would need to ADR most of the movie. The reason being, the director did not want to shoot on a sound stage/green screen. All of those shots are done on location. The bus is really moving the whole time they are filming. They are really driving on highways the whole time, etc... The director knew this, and chose to sacrifice the production dialogue for the realism of the visuals.

So, between 90 and 95% of the film is ADR. There are only a few scenes where they kept some of the production dialogue (like in the subway stairwell when keanu shoots Jeff Daniels in the leg). And even then there are some lines in those scenes that they ADR'd.

I believe the other actors they ADR'd in an ADR stage... but Keanu had to immediately start filming Johnny Mnemonic (sorry I was spelling it wrong earlier) right after Speed. So Vickie and her team had to setup a mobile ADR system in a hotel room where they were shooting JM. After a 12~16 hour day of shooting JM, Keanu would then have to try and do 2~4 hrs of ADR every night. I think Vickie said it took a month or so to get all the ADR. But she said Keanu was a real trooper about it. Even though he was exhausted, he would go in and try to do the best he could.

It's funny, I've always thought that Keanu's performance in Speed was particularly bad. So lifeless and unemotional. And come to find out it's because he did most of the lines in a hotel room at 2am while shooting his next film! That explains a lot!
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #25
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dualflip ➑️
Well im not really into the movie business, i mean i've worked in some movies but thats not my main activity, what i said in my recent posts is what i always thought and knew, but if you guys know something i dont, please let me know, ill be happy to learn
In the audio post production of almost all dramatic films there is a serious struggle to keep as much of the original location-recorded dialog in the film as possible, even if the sound of it is compromised in comparison to new ADR tracks. All of the working professionals on this forum have had the experience of working bad production sound as much as they can, ADRing the scene and getting that new audio to sit in the track properly, only to have the director want to use the bad production sound anyway due to performance issues, mostly. A few action pictures may plan to ADR much of their dialog, but in practice the final mix will probably contain a great deal of production sound, more than you may realize.

Philip Perkins
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #26
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minister's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch ➑️
It's funny, I've always thought that Keanu's performance in Speed was particularly bad. So lifeless and unemotional... That explains a lot!
My favorite review of this actor is, "And Mr. Reaves remembered his lines....."
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #27
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soundboy's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Ethan Hawk's review in "Great Expectations" "He has all the emotional depth of a runway model"
My favorite quote about critics is by Oscar Wilde,
"Having a critic give you a good review, is like having the headsman say you have a pretty neck."

I once recorded ADR for a MOW called "Two Came Back". It took place in a life boat, and they didn't shut off the wave machines during takes. I'd say about 75% ADR on that one. I don't know what was used on the dub stage though.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #28
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gsilbers's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
there is a movie called fathom (old skool movie) but in it, the main actors do this wierd yet unnoticeable thing.. they explain the overly complicated plot w/o stopping and the scene goes from city cafe, to convertible car and other outdoor scenes and into a house kinda fast in the middle of their sentences. with wired cuts in between. kinda cool, as it was in the 60's. very creative use of adr imo.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #29
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gsilbers's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
as for the OP, are tallking about something like Moulin Rouge?
cause the whole movie is like that...
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #30
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🎧 10 years
And "Fathom" also had a very creative use of Raquel Welch's bikini
Guys, rent this movie, and tell your wife or girlfriend that you're only seeing it "for the ADR"
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