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Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #61
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes ➑️
I never mentioned garage spaces.... but one could say that you are now taking business away from the Studio sound departments at your house....correct? And I am confident to say at a much lower overhead cost...


The problem the studio mentality is saddled with is the Facilities vs talent paradigm- You know how good Jeff Perkins is (and please give my warmest regards to him if you see him)- the space he works in is only partially relevent to the final product he produces- And I would personally prefer to have him mix my work in a garage sized space (which is reasonably decent acoustically) than a lesser mixer at the Cary Grant.
Agreed. It is the client that determines these things.

Also, just because a stage is big, doesn't mean it is good. I mixed a lot of films on the famous old Todd 1021 stage A (now gone), which was huge and everything sounded great when you were mixing, but sounded very different out in the real world.
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #62
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charles maynes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan ➑️
Agreed. It is the client that determines these things.

Also, just because a stage is big, doesn't mean it is good. I mixed a lot of films on the famous old Todd 1021 stage A (now gone), which was huge and everything sounded great when you were mixing, but sounded very different out in the real world.
It always surprised me how much I disliked the mixes I was involoved in there... I liked the little stage they had out in the parking lot though....
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #63
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ggegan's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes ➑️
It always surprised me how much I disliked the mixes I was involoved in there... I liked the little stage they had out in the parking lot though....
Stage B, I did several mixes in there as well. Now that was a great stage. One of my favorites, but the console was totally inadequate. Still, stuff came out of there sounding great and you knew that your decisions were valid.
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #64
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charles maynes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan ➑️
Stage B, I did several mixes in there as well. Now that was a great stage. One of my favorites, but the console was totally inadequate. Still, stuff came out of there sounding great and you knew that your decisions were valid.
good lord- that Quad 8 was like working at International actually- though Jeff did amazing work on it (on the Schlegle Franken-console)- but boy did he ever have to take notes....
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #65
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ggegan's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes ➑️
good lord- that Quad 8 was like working at International actually- though Jeff did amazing work on it (on the Schlegle Franken-console)- but boy did he ever have to take notes....
The FX side of the Stage B console had 16 faders (if I remember correctly) very rudimentary EQ and only 2 track panners, and then there was a roll around with another 24 which had no EQ or panners or sends or anything other than busses. It was a hassle, but some really great mixes came out of there which goes to show that it isn't about the hardware.

I never worked at International, but the mixes Jeff did there sounded excellent. He's a very talented guy.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #66
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
The statement about Skywalker is true--they do have a number of smaller mixing rooms now, and now are in direct competition w/ people like me (who only have small rooms). However, I have MUCH lower overhead than they do, esp re small and low-budg projects, and while Skywalker MIGHT be able to provide a mixer/editor with more experience and a higher skill level than me for such a job, they can't/won't guarantee that because that person might need to be pulled onto a higher-budget/bigger job. A small place like mine can also be more hands on and service oriented. I can also stand more low $$ pain than they can, unless they decide to make the show a freebie for their own reasons (which they do fairly often). That's very cool of them, but also has it's own set of issues (looking a gift horse in the mouth vs. getting what one needs for one's film and etc.). Doco and TV shows will I think be done more and more in smaller rooms, but I agree that Hollywood style theatrical films with wealthy famous people involved will continue to be mixed on big stages--and that would happen even if some magic new technology enabled a small room to accurately model a big room for a decent sized group of listeners. They want to believe that their film is going to be seen in BIG theatres, so that's where they want to work on it.

Philip Perkins
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #67
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Monobasser's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes ➑️
If I were them, I would say make the PS3 compatible with non Sony media (XBOX games)
With all due respect Charles, as a game developer myself your statement reveals a massive gap in your knowledge in this area.

It's kinda like saying Sony should have made Betamax compatible with VHS cassettes.

I only feel comfortable bringing this up due to the fact that you know more about recording and producing sound than I ever will in my lifetime!
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #68
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Henchman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monobasser ➑️

It's kinda like saying Sony should have made Betamax compatible with VHS cassettes.
Not entirely, considerign we're talking software.
IE, I can install Mac OSX on my PC and run it and Vice Versa.
Emulating other platforms is not the same as making hardware accept a different format.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #69
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Henchman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I actually think it's going to get harder and harder for smaller rooms to compete, when the larger facilities start creating smaller rooms to accomodate various levels of budgets for shows that THEY are footing the production costs for.
And since this is an Ego driven busienss, many a producer will prefer to say they're going to XYZ large studio/lot versus saying they're mixing in Joe's garage studio. Especially if the costs are very close to each other.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #70
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Monobasser's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
um... Windows and OSX are designed to run on the same CPU design henchman....

Yeah sure, I'm not saying if Sony put 300 people on it they won't have a tiny fraction of Xbox360 games running at 3fps by the end of 2011...

Of course the Microsoft lawsuit would probably delay them another 5 years and cost a few billion or so. But sure it's theoretically possible...

Stick to what you know guys
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #71
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Henchman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monobasser ➑️
um... Windows and OSX are designed to run on the same CPU design henchman....

Yeah sure, I'm not saying if Sony put 300 people on it they won't have a tiny fraction of Xbox360 games running at 3fps by the end of 2011...

Of course the Microsoft lawsuit would probably delay them another 5 years and cost a few billion or so. But sure it's theoretically possible...

Stick to what you know guys
And I can also gte an SNES emulator for my Android Phone.
Definitely NOT the same hardware.
I also had Mac software running on my Atari back in the day.
So, again, it's not IMPOSSIBLE.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #72
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Monobasser's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yeah I already said it isn't IMPOSSIBLE.

It's time to give up
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #73
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hociman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Talking upper mismanagement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe ➑️
A BIG problem for companies trying to compete in today's economy is that they have become bloated with too many managers and mid level executives who really don't DO anything and when something like a recession hits they are slow to act.
I think of this as upper mismanagement.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #74
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🎧 15 years
Exclamation breaking the law, breaking the law

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman ➑️
IE, I can install Mac OSX on my PC and run it and Vice Versa.
Just because you can does not mean you should. Ever read the EULA for Mac OS X? It's not permitted (aka illegal) to install it on a non-Apple CPU.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #75
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kk@jamsync.com's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by hociman ➑️
Just because you can does not mean you should. Ever read the EULA for Mac OS X? It's not permitted (aka illegal) to install it on a non-Apple CPU.
Yeah...I'm wondering if they're gonna crack down on Leo Laporte for "Hackintoshing" a netbook! Sounds like a cool idea to moi...the hackintoshing part, that is.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #76
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charles maynes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monobasser ➑️
With all due respect Charles, as a game developer myself your statement reveals a massive gap in your knowledge in this area.

It's kinda like saying Sony should have made Betamax compatible with VHS cassettes.

I only feel comfortable bringing this up due to the fact that you know more about recording and producing sound than I ever will in my lifetime!
The only reason I bring this up is that SCEA (a company I work for on a periodic basis) DOes create a good number of games which are exclusive to the PS3- Considering this, I would forward a strategy which allowed those titles to be available on other platforms- which would allow SCEA to be much more profitable. It would impact sales on the PS3 of course, but I see no reason for hardware to diminish the profitability of software IP.

Presently Nintendo can get away with this, but they seem to be the only ones managing it.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #77
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes ➑️
I am doing a weapons library for a AAA game right now, so I dont know if my experience matches yours- I do this sort of thing somewhat frequently actually....
I think my experience speaks for itself, games make up anywhere from 25%-50% of my annual income and my best game credits are on IMDB. Recording a special library for a game company is cool since you are working, but it does reinforce my point that most of the sound work for games is recording assets and organizing files to be delivered to the programmers. It's certainly not as satisfying or creatively challenging as movie sound design, editing, or mixing. Work is work, but many engineers got into audio as part of a desire to have a creative job, and in my experience, the audio jobs for post production people working in the game industry are not creative in the least. Game companies also tend to have little respect for audio guys, it's the software and graphics people who get all the kudos and the nice paychecks.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #78
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charles maynes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman ➑️
I actually think it's going to get harder and harder for smaller rooms to compete, when the larger facilities start creating smaller rooms to accomodate various levels of budgets for shows that THEY are footing the production costs for.
And since this is an Ego driven busienss, many a producer will prefer to say they're going to XYZ large studio/lot versus saying they're mixing in Joe's garage studio. Especially if the costs are very close to each other.
I think that studio rooms are never going to break the elusive $250 an hour barrier- most tv rooms are almost or more than double that. There is a lot work in that lower end- One just needs to build an appropriate venue for it. (and it wont look like the Quinn)
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #79
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charles maynes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by edit machine ➑️
I think my experience speaks for itself, games make up anywhere from 25%-50% of my annual income and my best game credits are on IMDB. Recording a special library for a game company is cool since you are working, but it does reinforce my point that most of the sound work for games is recording assets and organizing files to be delivered to the programmers. It's certainly is not as satisfying or creatively challenging as movie sound design, editing, or mixing. Work is work, but many engineers got into audio as part of a desire to have a creative job, and in my experience, the audio jobs for post production people working in the game industry are not creative in the least. Game companies also tend to have little respect for audio guys, it's the software and graphics people who get all the kudos and the nice paychecks.
I think I charge a decent but somewhat high rate- especially for recording.... The benefit though is that my time on a project is usually very short. And I seem to have a pretty good amount of repeat clients (actually from all over the world), so I certainly cannot complain....
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #80
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsteinwedel ➑️
I think there may be huge misconceptions about how games are made. Think more Pixar than Microsoft. There is a programming department which handles gameplay but they also make artist tools for the animation, art, design, and sound departments. Yes, a sound designer must know how to implement and mix their sounds into a game with those tools but if you can learn a DAW you can learn integration tools.
Do you know the names of any of those integration tools? Is there one that is the standard, or are they individual to each company?

I personally would be happy to learn that kind of stuff and make the leap into the software implementation side of audio for games, but do you think a person with a long career in audio but no experience with software programming could be hired to do this kind of work?
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #81
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soundboy's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes ➑️
I think that studio rooms are never going to break the elusive $250 an hour barrier- most tv rooms are almost or more than double that. There is a lot work in that lower end- One just needs to build an appropriate venue for it. (and it wont look like the Quinn)
I hope you are right!
What's the Quinn? I know the Mighty Quinn, and Quinn Martin, and Anthony Quinn....
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #82
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charles maynes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundboy ➑️
I hope you are right!
What's the Quinn? I know the Mighty Quinn, and Quinn Martin, and Anthony Quinn....
Sony Post Anthony Quinn Theatre
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #83
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes ➑️
And that's not even their big room!!!
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #84
Gear Addict
 
Monobasser's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes ➑️
The only reason I bring this up is that SCEA (a company I work for on a periodic basis) DOes create a good number of games which are exclusive to the PS3- Considering this, I would forward a strategy which allowed those titles to be available on other platforms- which would allow SCEA to be much more profitable. It would impact sales on the PS3 of course, but I see no reason for hardware to diminish the profitability of software IP.

Presently Nintendo can get away with this, but they seem to be the only ones managing it.
Sure, that's a very different proposition to suggesting Xbox games should run on a PS3. It's still equally as unlikely considering Sony still lose $50 on every PS3 sold. The business model is totally based on selling hardware at a loss early on, refining the manufacturing techniques during the lifetime to make it cheaper to build and then reaping the reward of software sales in the 'autumn'.

Selling their key IP on other platforms would be suicide at a corporate level.

Edit: And as this article points out, they don't even have any particularly desirable IP on the market or even near to completion at the moment:

Analyst slashes PS3 sales expectations following disappointing 2008 // News
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #85
Gear Guru
 
charles maynes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monobasser ➑️
Sure, that's a very different proposition to suggesting Xbox games should run on a PS3. It's still equally as unlikely considering Sony still lose $50 on every PS3 sold. The business model is totally based on selling hardware at a loss early on, refining the manufacturing techniques during the lifetime to make it cheaper to build and then reaping the reward of software sales in the 'autumn'.

Selling their key IP on other platforms would be suicide at a corporate level.
How so? the main selling point of the console is the Blu-Ray capability. They wagered the farm on it and the market has rejected it.

They can sell at loss as much as their share holders will tolerate- but in the course of that, they are laying off 16,000 jobs.

explain again how that might be suicide....? They are also moving into commodity based products... Usually when this happens, with their R&D direction failing them, it leads to collapse- and the world climate is not helping any. Cost wise they cannot compete against the $250 Wii, and $400 dollar Xbox-360. And i am not advocating them sell off anything- moreso develop for the competing platforms- allowing Sony product to run on the other machines..
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #86
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Monobasser's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes ➑️
How so? the main selling point of the console is the Blu-Ray capability. They wagered the farm on it and the market has rejected it.
Blu-Ray capability is certainly what they hoped would make the product mass market, but its still dwarfed by the development cost of the architecture. They gambled on capturing the hardcore market in order to spur development on key third party titles and then reap the benefits on Blu-Ray. They fell at the first hurdle and the second hurdle didn't interest the marketplace anyway like you say.

They've lost most of the third party exclusives which were system sellers. Their own internal development teams are bloated and just don't produce the goods often enough. If you really think they would take the few system sellers they have left like Gran Turismo and put it on Xbox then you really don't understand just how different the mindset of Japanese corporations is.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #87
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes ➑️
Analysis paralysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


this is the core problem of American business in my opinion.
When I worked at the college we spent a lot of time in meetings trying to decide to do things instead of doing them. We also spent a lot of time justifying our jobs instead of just doing them. We were bombarded by employee evaluations, by having to fill out sheets of what we did all day and at one point the college put bar codes on all the toilets that the janitorial staff had to scan with a portable hand scanner after they had cleaned them. All rooms had bar codes as well. The college, which had always had a good rapport with their employees, suddenly found the service employees unionizing with the UAW.

My take on American Businesses is that they have grown too large and have lost sight of what made them great. It was once said that how GM goes goes the country and now GM is on the verge of collapse. American businesses have to get back to their core values and start producing instead of trying to do hostile take overs of other businesses and trying to get into areas that they have no knowledge of. Also managers have to be willing to take responsibility for the rise and fall of their businesses and when their businesses are going broke they can't give themselves a big raise, a large golden parachute or redecorate their offices for 1.1 million. When I was young the president of a large corporation made approximately 10 times the wage of his highest paid employee now the sky is the limit and managers are laying off hundreds of workers while they have three homes and 20 mil in the bank. The corporate manager greed is simply amazing. The are acting like the lord of the manor and treating their employees as serfs.

Greed has toppled many people and many businesses and it is getting worse not better.

I agree with what you are saying but I think it is a LARGE can of worms and will take some time to get it back a functioning normally.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #88
Gear Addict
 
Monobasser's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe ➑️
I agree with what you are saying but I think it is a LARGE can of worms and will take some time to get it back a functioning normally.
I think what you describe as normality won't come back 100%. It's time to look to India and then further down the line China for the vibrant economies.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #89
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hociman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundboy ➑️
What's the Quinn? I know the Mighty Quinn, and Quinn Martin, and Anthony Quinn....
You left out Martha Quinn.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #90
Gear Guru
 
charles maynes's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monobasser ➑️
Blu-Ray capability is certainly what they hoped would make the product mass market, but its still dwarfed by the development cost of the architecture. They gambled on capturing the hardcore market in order to spur development on key third party titles and then reap the benefits on Blu-Ray. They fell at the first hurdle and the second hurdle didn't interest the marketplace anyway like you say.

They've lost most of the third party exclusives which were system sellers. Their own internal development teams are bloated and just don't produce the goods often enough. If you really think they would take the few system sellers they have left like Gran Turismo and put it on Xbox then you really don't understand just how different the mindset of Japanese corporations is.
I have worked with Japanese coroporations a fair amount over the last 25 years.... they always tend towards having a 100 year plan. Sony seems to have lost theirs.

Sony has a non-Japanese board presently which is part of the problem-

Have you read their shareholders report? If not, you really should.
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