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seeking ADR Workflow insight
Old 12th March 2021
  #1
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
seeking ADR Workflow insight

Hello all,

I am looking at ADR software solutions, and hoping to get some opinions on the best methods for effective yet economical ADR workflow.

What additional apps would an expert recommend to a fluent Pro Tools user looking to up their ADR game? Pros and Cons? One vs the other?

I currently use Video Slave 4, but now that I am getting higher end requests, I was thinking of upgrading to ADR Master (or something else), but wanted to see what others thought before proceeding. Is there a tried and true software combination that "just works best"?

I've seen: Edicue / VoiceQ / ADR Master / Anything else?

My goal is to simplify prep as much as possible, and also simplify the actual record process.

lower cost is obviously a factor, but I'm willing to invest more if it makes a huge workflow difference.

Thanks in advance for any ideas!
John
Old 13th March 2021
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
If you really want to simplify, you need to use another DAW IMHO.
Nuendo has it all integrated. It's not as extensive feature wise as Edicue with Edi prompt. But a heck of a lot slicker.

If it's worth using Nuendo just for ADR managing and recording? Probably, but not 100% sure.

You could always check the demo.
Old 15th March 2021 | Show parent
  #3
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
I've heard great things about nuendo, but pro tools is just too much a part of our work flow. In fact most of our dialogue clients expect a protools session as part of the deliverables. I wouldn't want to add converting nuendo sessions to protools step.
Old 15th March 2021 | Show parent
  #4
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by johntunes ➡️
I've heard great things about nuendo, but pro tools is just too much a part of our work flow. In fact most of our dialogue clients expect a protools session as part of the deliverables. I wouldn't want to add converting nuendo sessions to protools step.
I hear you.

OTOH for ADR delivery just export as AAF or convert to PT. Its not like ADR deliveries in general have complex premix setup you want to keep.

I’m not trying to convince you. Just making sure you know of alternative solutions. Especially since it doesn’t sound like you have a set workflow for ADR yet.
Old 15th March 2021 | Show parent
  #5
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
thanks. I do have a cubase 10 license so I could upgrade to nuendo for 400 usd.

Maybe I am over thinking this, but for larger adr sessions, should I be expecting an EdiCue PDF or midi file? Is there a standard file type sent to the adr house? I just dont want to have to spend hours typing in cues if there's a quick an easy system for it.
Old 15th March 2021 | Show parent
  #6
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🎧 10 years
I send an EdiCue .pdf cuesheet, and the PT session that generated it. That way, the ADR mixer has the cues already spotted into a timeline that can be imported into the actual record session
Old 15th March 2021 | Show parent
  #7
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeMilner ➡️
I send an EdiCue .pdf cuesheet, and the PT session that generated it. That way, the ADR mixer has the cues already spotted into a timeline that can be imported into the actual record session
Can Nuendo import these sheets as well?
Old 15th March 2021 | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Well, the cusheet itself is just a pdf.
But the PT session (that generated the cuesheet) has the cues as (empty) regions on the timeline could be exported as an AAF which I think Nuendo could then import??
Sorry, I have zero Nuendo experience
Old 16th March 2021
  #9
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iluvcapra's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
You might check out Resolve's ADR workflow, it has a a cueing and database system comparable to Nuendo and all the functionality seems to be included in the free version.
Old 16th March 2021 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Guru
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by johntunes ➡️
Can Nuendo import these sheets as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeMilner ➡️
Well, the cusheet itself is just a pdf.
But the PT session (that generated the cuesheet) has the cues as (empty) regions on the timeline could be exported as an AAF which I think Nuendo could then import??
Sorry, I have zero Nuendo experience
Here's a short video I found on Nuendo's ADR workflow and functionality. In it they use a file to get markers and dialog for subtitling into the marker track(s).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBKPfuQ_wG4



You can also find the section in the manual here:

https://steinberg.help/nuendo/v11/en..._c.html?hl=adr

(there are sub-sections to that..)
Old 16th March 2021
  #11
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celticrogues's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
What exactly are you trying to simplify?

I do most of my work just in Pro Tools, with no added software. Once you get your workflow down and run enough ADR sessions that you begin to develop muscle memory and know where things are it’s really not that big a deal.

Spend time and create a template that really works for you. Obviously you will refine this as you go, but having that template to start with is key.

Another huge help for me is having a control surface or mixing console that’s big enough and flexible enough to get most of your key channels onto. It’s so much faster and more precise to have faders and mute buttons to grab as opposed to mousing around.

I do have a couple of systems that use Gallery’s ADR Studio as control software for Pro Tools and it’s fine, but honestly I’m not sure it saves that much effort. Those systems have digital consoles (not control surfaces) and ADR Studio is nice in that it can integrate with those consoles and recall scenes during the session, but I definitely do not feel handicapped when I’m on a system that doesn’t have that equipment. IMHO your time and resources are better spent learning Pro Tools inside and out, and learning ADR workflow inside and out.

-Mike
Old 17th March 2021
  #12
Gear Addict
 
RecRoom's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I'll second what Mike said and make the claim that all you need is ProTools, a simple control surface, and a few ancillary programs/plugins. I use an Artist mix along with a Ipad running Avid control and it works great. I have two layouts on the Artist mix, one for recording and one for playbacks. I've never used video slave, but EdiPrompt works great if you need to generate streamers. It can also automate the recording process somewhat but I've found I need to be more flexible as workflows can vary from session to session. Also, Source Nexus is a must if you need to connect to Zoom, Skype, etc. Just don't count on it being in sync with your video.
Old 19th March 2021
  #13
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Mundox's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
We do ADR for a lot of big guys and all we use is Pro Tools.
Adding another piece of software slows things down too much as each actor has their own way of working and we have to adapt on the fly.
On top of that, more and more (remote) sessions require us to edit and sync as we go and do almost mix ready playbacks to the sup and director, making things even more hectic.

We do like receiving Edicue MIDI files to populate the markers though.
Old 19th March 2021
  #14
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🎧 10 years
I'm with the last few posts on this one. I used to dub anima into English 20 years ago. Those sessions are where very fast paced. We did some ungodly number of loops an hour. I think we did 30 or many even 60 (can that be right? might be mis remembering at this point). All Pro Tools. I used to type in TC, Paste beeps and hit play and not even think about what I was doing. I can't imagine a faster workflow.
Old 19th March 2021 | Show parent
  #15
Gear Guru
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncross ➡️
I used to type in TC, Paste beeps and hit play and not even think about what I was doing. I can't imagine a faster workflow.
I've done similar things in PT, but if that's the case then wouldn't it be "obviously" faster if instead of pasting beeps the software would play them back automatically? And if you receive for example a document with timecodes wouldn't it be faster if that could be made into a list of markers that you could navigate through using "next marker" commands or similar? And if that document contained the actual dialog how about automatically get that on-screen as caption?

And so on...
Old 19th March 2021
  #16
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minister's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
We happily use EdiCue. Very powerful. You can import a script to save time in typing out cues. Making updates to what was actually said is easy. Once you get the hang of the session interface, you can fly. It makes great PDF's for Engineer, Actor, Director. Can easily and quickly get markers and beeps in ADR record session.

Most of the big studios we record with use EdiCue also, though I have seen a few other programs. And, sometimes, none at all. Doesn't matter to us when we are the record-only studio.

Also, check out Peter Gates' ADR Cueing software. It's very powerful and price can't be beat.

http://petegates.com/pg-pt-session.html

Last edited by minister; 20th March 2021 at 03:22 PM..
Old 20th March 2021 | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by johntunes ➡️
Can Nuendo import these sheets as well?
Not if it’s a pdf sheet, they are for printing only... and neither can anything else as far as I know.

if it’s exported as some type of text or csv file format the answer is yes. I don remember what édicue file format looked like. But iirc Edicue could export the data as csv.
Old 20th March 2021 | Show parent
  #18
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minister's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikG ➡️
if it’s exported as some type of text or csv file format the answer is yes. I don remember what édicue file format looked like. But iirc Edicue could export the data as csv.
EdiCue can export:
ADR cues as:
  • customizable PDF's
  • AAF File
  • Text
  • Excel
  • MIDI

I find once you get your head wrapped around EdiCue (which is not that difficult), it is much faster and far more powerful than merely using PT. It would be great if PT integrated more things like Nuendo, but...

I would also seriously look at Peter Gates's program.

"Just works best" is defined by the situation (which includes the users and studios and budgets etc etc). It's your job to learn the options then define what's best -- which will evolve as you learn and grow and programs develop, blah blah blah.

I have never used Voice Q, ADR Studio and other all-in-one ADR solutions, or, even Nuendo. We do a fair amount of ADR, but that is not all we do. And we're a PT house. So, take my comments based on what works great for us.
Old 20th March 2021 | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by minister ➡️
EdiCue can export:
ADR cues as:
  • customizable PDF's
  • AAF File
  • Text
  • Excel
  • MIDI

I find once you get your head wrapped around EdiCue (which is not that difficult), it is much faster and far more powerful than merely using PT. It would be great if PT integrated more things like Nuendo, but...
I actually replied not realising there was a bunch of other replies in the thread.
Excel and text can be converted to csv more or less easily so than yes.

I'm not trying to steal your PT tools, just mentioning how the alternative DAW does things .

Edicue was neither great nor horrible, but it's been a while since I used it back in the day when I was more of a PT user. But you really cant claim that the way to enter data in PT>EdiCue>Ediprompt is smart and flexible (single line text with strict formatting still isnt it?). Setting up Midi, and using midi to trigger the recordings still?

I mean technically, as with all products from SoundsInSync, very competent, but honestly having to use three programs, PT, EdiCue and EdiPrompt to get work done...

I just use one.
Old 20th March 2021 | Show parent
  #20
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minister's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikG ➡️
I'm not trying to steal your PT tools, just mentioning how the alternative DAW does things .
Totally get it. I wish PT had more integrated functionality. But for me, too much work to switch. And, OP is in the PT universe.

EdiCue is much more powerful than when it first started.

We don't use the Midi beeps, we quickly and easily copy/paste our ADR beeps Clip Group to each marker where the cue is.
Old 22nd March 2021 | Show parent
  #21
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cubivore's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncross ➡️
I'm with the last few posts on this one. I used to dub anima into English 20 years ago. Those sessions are where very fast paced. We did some ungodly number of loops an hour. I think we did 30 or many even 60 (can that be right? might be mis remembering at this point). All Pro Tools. I used to type in TC, Paste beeps and hit play and not even think about what I was doing. I can't imagine a faster workflow.
this is still the case 20 years later! instead of manually pasting beeps in for every cue there are ways to script pasting them in. i'm dubbing almost daily and we never use anything but a word or excel doc and PT, none of the other fluff. and yes, we are burning like 35-60 lines per hour!!!
Old 22nd March 2021 | Show parent
  #22
Gear Guru
 
🎧 10 years
For cubivore and others:

How much time do you allot to setting up your PT project when working this way?

I'm interested in knowing how much time you spend on

- organizing AAF content (if you even do that - and how) and
- how much time you spend on then placing beeps, markers etc.

I think that could be of interest to many.

I've personally not had to do that many ADR sessions, but I've noticed that many times even on projects where I'd expect more care to have been taken I only receive a video file and a mixdown with little to no care for how on-cam production dialog is split out in order to make room for a 'clean' new take to be heard with m&e (only) behind it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cubivore ➡️
this is still the case 20 years later! instead of manually pasting beeps in for every cue there are ways to script pasting them in. i'm dubbing almost daily and we never use anything but a word or excel doc and PT, none of the other fluff. and yes, we are burning like 35-60 lines per hour!!!
Old 22nd March 2021 | Show parent
  #23
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by minister ➡️
We don't use the Midi beeps, we quickly and easily copy/paste our ADR beeps Clip Group to each marker where the cue is.
Do you mark the first syllable of each line, or the first accented syllable?
Old 22nd March 2021 | Show parent
  #24
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minister's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➡️
Do you mark the first syllable of each line, or the first accented syllable?
First syllable.

By the way, if I wasn't clear, we use EdiCue only for prepping and creating ADR session for our sessions and ones we send out for actors in other cities.. We don't use EdiCue DURING the session (unless you want to count the Cue Sheets...), nor do we use it when we are the hired ADR Record studio.

I just find it easier to work with audio for beeps. We import the markers into our ADR template, and then just click on the marker, cntl-opt-cmd-click on the ADR Clip group and it snaps the end of the clip group to the head of the marker. Super fast. If we have beeps near each other, we put them on a 2nd track for muting.

And it's a snap to mute beeps in case the actor is better at listen and repeat, or, listen and peel of 3-6 takes in a row.
Old 22nd March 2021 | Show parent
  #25
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by minister ➡️
First syllable.
Just asked because some people seem to nail first-accented more easily. An observation based on very limited experience.
Old 22nd March 2021 | Show parent
  #26
Gear Guru
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➡️
Just asked because some people seem to nail first-accented more easily. An observation based on very limited experience.
I've found that it's dependent on the talent. Last time I did an ADR and narration session I actually had to slip the beeps 5 frames because that's the amount of time the actor was off when reading, almost always.

But I did align to the first syllable to start.
Old 23rd March 2021 | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➡️
Just asked because some people seem to nail first-accented more easily. An observation based on very limited experience.
Yes, and it often seems to be connected to whether the actor has musical experience. Musicians hear the accented syllables as 'on the beat' and will interpret preceding syllables as pickups, while non-musicians aren't as rhythmically oriented.
Old 23rd March 2021 | Show parent
  #28
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmccoy ➡️
Yes, and it often seems to be connected to whether the actor has musical experience. Musicians hear the accented syllables as 'on the beat' and will interpret preceding syllables as pickups, while non-musicians aren't as rhythmically oriented.
'Zackly.
Old 23rd March 2021 | Show parent
  #29
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minister's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn ➡️
Just asked because some people seem to nail first-accented more easily. An observation based on very limited experience.
I stated our default starting point. But of course, all these things are designed to aid the actor. Whatever works best for them, we adapt immediately to try to elicit the best takes and make it comfortable for them! Some actors are horrible and counting and never ever get the beeps right. But I have had some of them insist on the beeps being in despite the fact that they alway come in on the 3rd beep, or right after it, or well after the "silent one".
Old 23rd March 2021 | Show parent
  #30
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celticrogues's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc ➡️
For cubivore and others:

How much time do you allot to setting up your PT project when working this way?

I'm interested in knowing how much time you spend on

- organizing AAF content (if you even do that - and how) and
- how much time you spend on then placing beeps, markers etc.

I think that could be of interest to many.

I've personally not had to do that many ADR sessions, but I've noticed that many times even on projects where I'd expect more care to have been taken I only receive a video file and a mixdown with little to no care for how on-cam production dialog is split out in order to make room for a 'clean' new take to be heard with m&e (only) behind it.
PT setup times vary of course depending on how many cues there are, but generally for a session with 20ish cues it takes 20-30 minutes to set up.

I rarely receive AAF content, normally I ask for and receive split guide tracks. Thats either a stereo WAV file with dialogue on the L channel and M&E on the R channel, or separate WAV files for dialogue, music, effects, and temp ADR.

Once I have all the elements its just a matter of loading them into my template and pasting in the audio beeps and MIDI streamer region. I have my beeps and streamer tracks grouped together in my template so that I can paste these regions at the same time. I prefer that method over using clip groups because after everything is pasted in its just one click to ungroup the tracks and then I'm able to mute beeps and streamers separately during the session, whereas with clip groups I'd have to ungroup each set of regions separately. I often mute beeps for consecutive lines in case the actor wants to do them together, but leave the streamers in place as a visual cue.

I also like to go through and check all the cues as I'm loading them in, so thats really what takes the most time. Just listening through to make sure I understand the notes the editor is going for, and making sure the beeps are all lined up correctly. I've played with importing markers and such in the past, but since I like to check everything beforehand anyway, it doesn't really seem to save any time versus just pasting beeps and streamers in by hand.

When I do it by hand, I do not use markers for each line either, which makes setup a little faster for me. I just have the beeps and streamers regions pasted in on their tracks and tab from one to the next one. If we jump around during the session (versus going in a linear fashion from one cue to the next) I'll simply type in the timecode for the next cue.

-Mike
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