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Avid is laying off (parts of) Pro Tools and other Audio Teams
Old 29th January 2016
  #1
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Avid is laying off (parts of) Pro Tools and other Audio Teams

Oh no.

This is really bad news. Many will have seen this coming, but I was actually starting to feel a little hopeful with the new release cycles and features they were spitting out. This now somehow seems like the last nail in the coffin.

Members Of Pro Tools And Other Audio Teams Go In Avid Technology Layoffs — Pro Tools Expert

Here is a link to some insider comments from employees:
https://www.thelayoff.com/avid-technology
Old 29th January 2016
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
So they didn't even wait 30 days after the deadline for customers to cough up for subscriptions before they started firing the product developers? Not unexpected but...
Old 29th January 2016
  #3
Gear Guru
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Too bad but this has been predicted for years and it is now coming to pass.

I feel sorry for the workers. Not sorry for management.

FWIW
Old 30th January 2016
  #4
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PatrickFaith's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Well I did just pay in dec for the 600$ upgrade to 12 hd ... lmao, I should have known. I'm going to finish up in 2016 on protools, and start testing object oriented mixing platform to cut over to in 2017. Probably still use protools 12hd in 2017 just so I can be backwards compatiable with deliveries, but for all the new OO sound stuff I'm thinking I just need to move on. I was hoping this year protools would upgrade HD to support OO sound so I wouldn't have to learn a new system, that's just the breaks I guess.
Old 30th January 2016 | Show parent
  #5
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickFaith ➡️
Well I did just pay in dec for the 600$ upgrade to 12 hd ... lmao, I should have known. I'm going to finish up in 2016 on protools, and start testing object oriented mixing platform to cut over to in 2017. Probably still use protools 12hd in 2017 just so I can be backwards compatiable with deliveries, but for all the new OO sound stuff I'm thinking I just need to move on. I was hoping this year protools would upgrade HD to support OO sound so I wouldn't have to learn a new system, that's just the breaks I guess.
So what app would you be going to? That's "OO" as you say?
Old 30th January 2016 | Show parent
  #6
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PatrickFaith's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by philper ➡️
So what app would you be going to? That's "OO" as you say?
Nuendo started adding that stuff in. Also there's a ton of stuff in the VR/game space right now ... but it's not really meant for tv/film(i btw really like the node based workflows). So will be trading nuendo vs the vr/game OO systems that are moving up the food chain. I btw don't see much activity in this forum from game mixers (and real time 3d game mixing workflows).
Old 30th January 2016
  #7
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🎧 5 years
People usually don't have a real idea regarding the development costs of audio software. It's a massive money drain...
I understand that many users feel like a victim when software companies charge huge values for upgrades and similar things, but sometimes the software companies are the actual victims.
Old 30th January 2016 | Show parent
  #8
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuno Fonseca ➡️
People usually don't have a real idea regarding the development costs of audio software. It's a massive money drain...
I understand that many users feel like a victim when software companies charge huge values for upgrades and similar things, but sometimes the software companies are the actual victims.
I don't think many here who make their living off of Pro Tools mind the upgrade fees too much. Avid's communication is almost nonexistant and the decisions are sometimes baffling. But in the long run it's just a cost of doing business for us to upgrade.

The problem here seems to be a corporation that has had management problems for a very very long time.
Old 31st January 2016
  #9
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Mr. Wilson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
This is sad and I hope some other business entity can buy off the assets if it comes to that. I for one have benefitted on every PT upgrade I've purchased and for us in Post Production it's still the only game in town. I know I'm probably only a handful of even Post editors that have experienced this but as part of my job I assemble the multichannel Production audio from an EDL, sound dailies and Titan which creates a PT9 session and only a PT9 session. For awhile that was a mess when I opened it in PT 10/11/early 12 HD. It would shuffle the polyfile tracks up and down the session lanes. 12.4 has fixed this under the hood and i'm saving 30 to 45 minutes in my workflow now...everything lines up in the proper tracks. Again this may only be my happy day but a fix is a fix. Unfortunately for me there is no other software to do the job, so I'm hoping PT can survive.
Old 31st January 2016 | Show parent
  #10
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
The only game in town only for as long as you all chose it to be.
If you dare you can chose differently and expand your horizons. Or you can say that nothing else in the world will do. But you will be wrong.
Old 31st January 2016 | Show parent
  #11
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ggegan's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikG ➡️
The only game in town only for as long as you all chose it to be.
If you dare you can chose differently and expand your horizons. Or you can say that nothing else in the world will do. But you will be wrong.
Sometimes you don't get to choose. Not everyone is a small self-contained shop that can go in any direction they choose. Here in LA the major studios and facilities specify which platform will be used, and every one of them has chosen Pro Tools, so if you want to interface with them, at some point you are going to have to deliver a Pro Tools session. If you are an independent editor who isn't working on their equipment you can do the editorial on whatever system you want, but when you bring material to them to mix it will have to be in the form of a Pro Tools session. That's just reality here in LA.
Old 31st January 2016 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfyou ➡️
Avid's communication is almost nonexistant and the decisions are sometimes baffling.
Are Avid's customer interactions all that different than other's in the DAW market? Is Apple (Logic) or Nuendo more open with there business decisions, product development, feature implementation? I imagine not (but don't know). I often feel there is a "grass is always greener" syndrome happening with unhappy users. And that many of their issues with Avid occur market-wide. It's just that the Pro Tools user base is so large that they are much louder.
Old 31st January 2016 | Show parent
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan ➡️
Sometimes you don't get to choose. Not everyone is a small self-contained shop that can go in any direction they choose. Here in LA the major studios and facilities specify which platform will be used, and every one of them has chosen Pro Tools, so if you want to interface with them, at some point you are going to have to deliver a Pro Tools session. If you are an independent editor who isn't working on their equipment you can do the editorial on whatever system you want, but when you bring material to them to mix it will have to be in the form of a Pro Tools session. That's just reality here in LA.
Well, as LA is not the world, I didn't comment specifically about LA but in General.
But I guess this is the wrong thread for that discussion. But Im happy to keep going on in any other thread.

I feel sad for the sacked employees and hope they all find good new "homes".
Old 31st January 2016
  #14
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
It's perfectly understandable that the vast majority of the audio community around the world find comfort through the uniformity of ProTools in the same way that 35mm mag, until 20 years ago, was the industry standard. What I think some non PT users on this forum find surprising is the blind, unquestioning, almost quasi religious fervour that goes with owning a ProTools. It's an allegiance that often seems to have people damning all other pretenders to the throne and, at the same time, not for a moment their ever being mildly concerned about a company that seemingly has an almost contemptuous relationship with its customers. Yes, it's a good product that, like its competitors, has its strengths and weaknesses, but there are people on this forum who have constantly alluded to the fact that no one else could possibly take its place. The lack of imagination and awareness that things evolve is what surprises me the most. And as for the "mine is bigger and better than yours"....can we declare a truce?
Old 31st January 2016
  #15
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Dean, your description sounds so similar to another company's major fans. Can't remember the name, some kind of vegetable or fruit I think...
Old 1st February 2016 | Show parent
  #16
Gear Maniac
 
Farhoof's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garret ➡️
Dean, your description sounds so similar to another company's major fans. Can't remember the name, some kind of vegetable or fruit I think...
The fruit is blackberry, the fans were wrong
Old 1st February 2016
  #17
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
OK, how serious is this really? Don't we get at least one of these "Death Comes For Mr. Avid" threads each year? I am no fan (or user, much) of Avid stuff, but I would caution everyone to A: not jump to conclusions based on skimpy info, possibly from biased sources and B: be careful what you wish for.
Old 1st February 2016 | Show parent
  #18
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Firing people in R&D makes it really easy to jump to conclusions when they have tried to push their entire userbase over to a subscription-model. (With the promise hanging in the air of new great things to come.)

Why subscribe to updates to a product that has downsized its product development team? I think I heard a doppler laugh of someone cackling their way to the bank.
Old 1st February 2016
  #19
Gear Maniac
 
Oliver.Lucas's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I feel sorry for the people. AVOID has a history of wrong management decisions that have lead to the situation. On the net we can read that the CEO and CFO are taking home $10m dollars a year. It's about time users and avid employees show those thiefs to @&#% off.
Now if Avid want to sell a PT upgrade to me (I'm on 11HD) they need to find reasons for me to do so. I'm talking about real audio post improvements, not that cloud collaboration nonsense. Let's see if there is anyone left in the company who can do this in a bug free way. I personally doubt it, PT had been hiding in stagnation for quite a while before....
Old 1st February 2016 | Show parent
  #20
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickFaith ➡️
Nuendo started adding that stuff in. Also there's a ton of stuff in the VR/game space right now ... but it's not really meant for tv/film(i btw really like the node based workflows). So will be trading nuendo vs the vr/game OO systems that are moving up the food chain. I btw don't see much activity in this forum from game mixers (and real time 3d game mixing workflows).
Nuendo not meant for TV/ Film?

I work at a nuendo Post studio and we've done tons of work on tv/ films. All of our engineers/ editors/ mixers had a background in Pro Tools, and now work strictly on nuendo due to its versatility and workflow. You can run nuendo just like Pro Tools if you want.

Maybe this was the case 5 years ago?
Old 1st February 2016 | Show parent
  #21
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ataylor's Avatar
What is an example of an Object Oriented program that you use?
Don't know of any Daw's that use nodes like that.. Im curious.... I tend to be a NODE person on the video/post-production side with preferring Nuke/Davinci over Aftereffects/Speedgrade. I think more in nodes then layers...
Also would say as a Nuendo user for the last few years.. never really was more then curious about PT's hated Avid.... now if someone like say Grant Petty over at Blackmagic bought them... well then that might change things.. Also would be great for PT.. they would more then likely go the same route that they did with Davinci / Fusion One studio version at about 1000 and then a lower end free one with all but a few high end features missing.. Then they would tighten up the code and update it .. now that might get me interested..


Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickFaith ➡️
Nuendo started adding that stuff in. Also there's a ton of stuff in the VR/game space right now ... but it's not really meant for tv/film(i btw really like the node based workflows). So will be trading nuendo vs the vr/game OO systems that are moving up the food chain. I btw don't see much activity in this forum from game mixers (and real time 3d game mixing workflows).
Old 1st February 2016 | Show parent
  #22
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timsplace ➡️
Are Avid's customer interactions all that different than other's in the DAW market? Is Apple (Logic) or Nuendo more open with there business decisions, product development, feature implementation? I imagine not (but don't know). I often feel there is a "grass is always greener" syndrome happening with unhappy users. And that many of their issues with Avid occur market-wide. It's just that the Pro Tools user base is so large that they are much louder.
By poor communication I mostly meant keeping your customers in the dark when they're ready and willing to give you money. It took Avid a ridiculous amount of time to announce the HD upgrade plans, and they made it thoroughly confusing with the weird combinations of support, upgrades, and plugin subscriptions. Not to mention the amount of problems with licenses and downloads not showing up in people's accounts.

And yes these Avid doomsday threads come about every year. I for one would rather Pro Tools not get sold off.
Old 1st February 2016 | Show parent
  #23
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PatrickFaith's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AFowles ➡️
Nuendo not meant for TV/ Film?

I work at a nuendo Post studio and we've done tons of work on tv/ films. All of our engineers/ editors/ mixers had a background in Pro Tools, and now work strictly on nuendo due to its versatility and workflow. You can run nuendo just like Pro Tools if you want.

Maybe this was the case 5 years ago?
I agree with that, what I do not know with Nuendo is how does is it's object system interface with something like wwise or the unity sound system. To me things like wwise and protools are completely seperate tools that barely touch eatch other in the workflow, I haven't seen exact workflows of wwise and nuendo objects. What I'd like is a seamless relationship between the daw and wwise, especially with object event triggers and carrying through positional information to all the sound nodes. I also would like seamless integration of the virtual mic's and speakers, without hardly any scripting (i.e. node based).


Quote:
Originally Posted by cjadams ➡️
What is an example of an Object Oriented program that you use?
Don't know of any Daw's that use nodes like that.. Im curious.... I tend to be a NODE person on the video/post-production side with preferring Nuke/Davinci over Aftereffects/Speedgrade. I think more in nodes then layers...
Also would say as a Nuendo user for the last few years.. never really was more then curious about PT's hated Avid.... now if someone like say Grant Petty over at Blackmagic bought them... well then that might change things.. Also would be great for PT.. they would more then likely go the same route that they did with Davinci / Fusion One studio version at about 1000 and then a lower end free one with all but a few high end features missing.. Then they would tighten up the code and update it .. now that might get me interested..
wwise I think is one of the major standards. I use unity (which also has a nice sound system), but it's a bit too "game" centered for me. WWISE has a bunch of nice nodal/graphs as you can see in the site tutorials.https://www.audiokinetic.com/resources/videos/

I also am a heavy nuke and maya user. I really like the node interface in nuke, it's my favorite, but the node interfaces in the object sound world are fairly new as you can see in the above tutorials(the unity node interface is really nice though, but I worry about it being so specific to unity). It seems to me that the "game" Node based workflow (I put that in quotes because "game" doesn't mean "game", just as GPU isn't only for graphics) has just started to be integrated with film/tv workflows .

I'm looking forward to films like "Ratchet & Clank", looking to see what they have done.
Old 1st February 2016 | Show parent
  #24
Gear Head
 
jeremiahslovarp's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickFaith ➡️
Nuendo started adding that stuff in. Also there's a ton of stuff in the VR/game space right now ... but it's not really meant for tv/film(i btw really like the node based workflows).
This is not true!

Nuendo's primary focus is Film & TV / sound for picture. Integrated loudness management, integrated ADR Taker system, integrated surround panning and monitoring control with speaker management.... The list goes on.

VR and Video Games are just a natural progression to an already fantastic [and superior, IMO] post production sound for picture platform.
Old 1st February 2016 | Show parent
  #25
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Stimmt's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickFaith ➡️
I agree with that, what I do not know with Nuendo is how does is it's object system interface with something like wwise or the unity sound system. To me things like wwise and protools are completely seperate tools that barely touch eatch other in the workflow, I haven't seen exact workflows of wwise and nuendo objects. What I'd like is a seamless relationship between the daw and wwise, especially with object event triggers and carrying through positional information to all the sound nodes. I also would like seamless integration of the virtual mic's and speakers, without hardly any scripting (i.e. node based).


wwise I think is one of the major standards. I use unity (which also has a nice sound system), but it's a bit too "game" centered for me. WWISE has a bunch of nice nodal/graphs as you can see in the site tutorials.https://www.audiokinetic.com/resources/videos/
Very interesting stuff. And yeah I agree: You're talking to the living dead when it comes to Game Sound around here. This will change in the next decade. Just like Avid will have to. Every empire in history went hardcore arrogant before its downfall. But these paradigm changes usually take more time than people/prophets make us believe.
Old 1st February 2016
  #26
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ataylor's Avatar
Nuendo combined with the likes of Dante and Nuage control surfaces.. Could easily become the next standard–bearer if in fact pro-tools stumbles. They also have cross-grade promotions too for protools users.
NUAGE | DAW Systems | Products | Yamaha

Oh and don't forget that Yamaha owns Steinberg.. I don't see them going away anytime soon as a parent company. So the financials look good as well.
Old 1st February 2016
  #27
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
It'll probably be a while before people abandon Pro Tools. Everyone has tons of money and time invested into PT systems, and they're going to protect their investment. IMO Nuendo has surpassed PT's capabilities, so if it were about that, more people would probably already be on Nuendo.
Old 2nd February 2016 | Show parent
  #28
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan ➡️
Sometimes you don't get to choose. Not everyone is a small self-contained shop that can go in any direction they choose. Here in LA the major studios and facilities specify which platform will be used, and every one of them has chosen Pro Tools, so if you want to interface with them, at some point you are going to have to deliver a Pro Tools session. If you are an independent editor who isn't working on their equipment you can do the editorial on whatever system you want, but when you bring material to them to mix it will have to be in the form of a Pro Tools session. That's just reality here in LA.
You say "Small self-contained shop". Did you look at the specs for that facility? 9 Nuendo systems and 7 Pro Tools systems. If that's a "small shop" what's a big one?

As an owner with many of both Nuendo and PT on site, ErikG is probably in a good position to have an objective perspective, don't you think? As opposed to guys that have only ever worked in Pro Tools. Not so objective there, I would imagine.

Conformity does not equal creativity.
Old 2nd February 2016 | Show parent
  #29
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Getalife2 ➡️
You say "Small self-contained shop". Did you look at the specs for that facility? 9 Nuendo systems and 7 Pro Tools systems. If that's a "small shop" what's a big one?

As an owner with many of both Nuendo and PT on site, ErikG is probably in a good position to have an objective perspective, don't you think? As opposed to guys that have only ever worked in Pro Tools. Not so objective there, I would imagine.

Conformity does not equal creativity.
I Need to change my signature, 10 Nuendo and 5 PT These days.
But while we may not be "small" we are rather independent and almost exclusively work on shows and features where we do all of the sound post production.
But yes we do show that given the chance and in the right circumstances it is possible to chose differently.

Would we have chosen this path unless Steinberg and Euphonix developed Eucon? Maybe not. But they did.
Old 2nd February 2016 | Show parent
  #30
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Fredo's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickFaith ➡️
What I'd like is a seamless relationship between the daw and wwise, especially with object event triggers and carrying through positional information to all the sound nodes.
Game Audio*:**|*http://www.steinberg.net/


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