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Recorded DI track sounds bad on reamping
Old 25th September 2012
  #1
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Recorded DI track sounds bad on reamping

I recorded the following DI track shippet which I want to reamp:


After reamping it sounds like this:


I'm not happy with the sound, especially the slide on 0:15 sounds very crappy.

First I thought I have a problem with my reamping setup but then I reamped the following sample (http://www.faderwear.com/guides/file...r_DI_Track.mp3) with excaclty the same settings and it sounds much better than my stuff:


If you compare the two DI tracks there is a hearable difference.

My question is: What's wrong with my DI track?

I used new strings for tracking, cables should be good since I used it also to record this samples.

My equipment:
Samson S-Direct SD 100 DI Box, Radial ProRMP Reamp Box, Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier, Mesa Boogie 4x12 Box

Thanks in advance
Old 25th September 2012
  #2
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The Soundcloud files are not working; I usually use the Soundcloud button (top right the reply box) and then just the webpage number...hope this helps : )
Old 25th September 2012
  #3
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Fixed, I used short soundcloud URLs which does not seem to work with the soundcloud button you mention...
Old 25th September 2012
  #4
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Arthur Stone's Avatar
 
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IMO the track that you are re-amping needs more punch and dynamics.
Old 25th September 2012
  #5
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Any ideas how to achieve this?

Most people do not recommend to modify the DI signal before reamping...
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry13 ➑️
Any ideas how to achieve this?

Most people do not recommend to modify the DI signal before reamping...
IME it's in the fingers...I had a similar problem with guitar sounding too indistinct and eating up bandwidth to be heard in the mix.

Out of interest, which guitar are you using and what length is the cable from guitar to input?...also how are you monitoring when tracking? Which mic and preamp are you using to re-record?
Old 25th September 2012
  #7
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Cable length from guitar to DI box is about 1 metre. I used the same cable from reampbox to the amp to record these samples, so should be ok...

Guitar brand is Schecter, have to check which model. Mic is Shure Beta 58 without head (which is like SM57). Don't know the model of the preamp, have to check first, but sounds not much better with different preamp and / or mic. Did some experiments with other mics and preamps.

For monitoring I used another cable from the DI box to the amp...

What do you mean by
it's in the fingers?
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #8
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry13 ➑️
Cable length from guitar to DI box is about 1 metre. I used the same cable from reampbox to the amp to record these samples, so should be ok...

Guitar brand is Schecter, have to check which model. Mic is Shure Beta 58 without head (which is like SM57). Don't know the model of the preamp, have to check first, but sounds not much better with different preamp and / or mic. Did some experiments with other mics and preamps.

For monitoring I used another cable from the DI box to the amp...

What do you mean by
it's in the fingers?
tone is in the fingers of the player. how you attack and create dynamics is usually down to the player i think thats what he was getting at. and the mic shure beta 58 is made for vocalists not a cranked amp hence the need for an sm57 or 57 beta. there built for the heavy payload a big amp produces. this could be one of the reasons. do you have active or passive pickups. if you have active theres alot of loss of dynamics.
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry13 ➑️
What do you mean by
it's in the fingers?
The fingers are the (fine) control on the dynamics/tone. You mentioned that your reference track re-amps as intended so if your final reamping isn't sounding as you intended then that leaves the Samson DI, the guitar, cables and playing style as areas to improve things.

Another thing I initially struggled with was the balance between capturing a good signal and monitoring my performance while tracking. What sounded good to me as a performer wasn't translating to the recording and I had to adjust my room and monitoring until I found a solution.

Maybe try a simple riff and experiment until you get the sound you want?
Old 25th September 2012
  #10
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@LaoTzu:
Thanks for the explanation.

I don't think that the mic is making the big difference because I also tried with Sennheiser MD421 and does not sound much better... And the sample DI track sounds also better than my stuff with the Beta 58.

So I will check about the pickups of the guitar and kick my guitar players ass

@Arthur Stone
Thanks for your tips, I will check them out.
But do you see a way to fix it without retracking?
I played around with the DI track and found
that a low pass on 50Hz, high boost on 10 kHz and limiter (threshold -25dB, output -0.1dB) gives an improvement on the sound (especially the slide sounds much better). But I cannot explain why to limit with such a big threshold?
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry13 ➑️
Thanks for the explanation.

I don't think that the mic is making the big difference because I also tried with Sennheiser MD421 and does not sound much better... And the sample DI track sounds also better than my stuff with the Beta 58.

So I will check about the pickups of the guitar and kick my guitar players ass
Yeah - think about each link in the signal path and work to a conclusion about what is causing the issue by elimination e.g as above, it probably isn't the mics because both reveal the same problem...so it could be the signal before the mics pick it up or the preamp after it.

Impedance can have a big role in how a guitar sounds too and some equipment will work together better than others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry13 ➑️
@Arthur Stone
Thanks for your tips, I will check them out.
But do you see a way to fix it without retracking?
I played around with the DI track and found
that a low pass on 50Hz, high boost on 10 kHz and limiter (threshold -25dB, output -0.1dB) gives an improvement on the sound (especially the slide sounds much better). But I cannot explain why to limit with such a big threshold?
Your welcome to the tips but bear in mind I'm just a home studio guy...it's tricky getting guitars right. Sometimes I will high-pass up to 400Hz and/or gate or add more distortion. Have you tried limiting after reamping instead of before?
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry13 ➑️
@LaoTzu:
Thanks for the explanation.

I don't think that the mic is making the big difference because I also tried with Sennheiser MD421 and does not sound much better... And the sample DI track sounds also better than my stuff with the Beta 58.

So I will check about the pickups of the guitar and kick my guitar players ass

@Arthur Stone
Thanks for your tips, I will check them out.
But do you see a way to fix it without retracking?
I played around with the DI track and found
that a low pass on 50Hz, high boost on 10 kHz and limiter (threshold -25dB, output -0.1dB) gives an improvement on the sound (especially the slide sounds much better). But I cannot explain why to limit with such a big threshold?
it may sound better in quality but the thing is there designed to pickup certain frequencies for a reason. that reason is that you can mix the guitar in its sweet spot. all the best guitar tones on your favourite records sound **** but in the mix sound just right. if you search youtube or google for studio outtakes of famous guitar based songs they sound so rough and raw and altered. and all were probably recorded on an sm57.

so the bottom line is it may sound **** but in the mix it will stand out as amazing. try it.
Old 25th September 2012
  #13
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Thanks for your thoughts.

Since the sample track sounds ok when reamping I don't think the main problem lies in the reamping setup, shure there's also room for improvment there...

I also know that the guitar sound itself sounds sometimes not very good (even on great records) but I think in my case there is something wrong, because the sound is too different from a setup without reamping.

I haven't tried to limit after reamping because e.g. the slide just sounds like **** because it's not distorted enough, so I don't think limiting will help here...

So I'm searching for a way to "repair" my existing DI tracks somehow (if possible)...
Old 25th September 2012
  #14
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Is re-cutting out of the question?
Old 25th September 2012
  #15
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Nothing is out of question
It's one of my first recording projects and the first time I use reamping.
I even consider retracking if everybody says that these DI tracks are crap.

Can you be more precise what I should recut?

Thanks in advance
Old 25th September 2012
  #16
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MJFI's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
The guitar track. As was already said, the source could use some work.
Old 25th September 2012
  #17
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Top 10 Isolated Guitar Tracks |
that link is what i mean by ****ty guitar sounds sounding good. check it out
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJFI ➑️
The guitar track. As was already said, the source could use some work.
+1 it needs more punch and dynamics to give the re-amp something to bite into.

Is the amp and monitor used for the guitar performance the same as the re-amp set up? Is the set-up exactly the same? Same room? Maybe the original part sounds good to the guitarist when it was recorded but it's not quite right for the re-amp?

Also there's a lot of limiting going on...that might not be helping: why so much?
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaoTzu ➑️
Top 10 Isolated Guitar Tracks |
that link is what i mean by ****ty guitar sounds sounding good. check it out
Haha, the AC/DC ones are good

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone ➑️
+1 it needs more punch and dynamics to give the re-amp something to bite into.

Is the amp and monitor used for the guitar performance the same as the re-amp set up? Is the set-up exactly the same? Same room? Maybe the original part sounds good to the guitarist when it was recorded but it's not quite right for the re-amp?

Also there's a lot of limiting going on...that might not be helping: why so much?
Amp and room are exactly the same. Yes that's what I already understood: the DI track needs some work, but can you give me an example what to do on the DI track? How can I achieve more punch and dynamics? (Sorry for asking this but that's why I posted in the newbie forum)

In the sample tracks above there is no limiting, as I already said that's absolutely unprocessed. When I played around I tested hard limiting of the DI track and then it sounded better after reamping...

I considered my backup system and found the amp track of the recording session, which was connected to the DI box. Unfortunately I cannot use it because I did neither care of the amp settings nor of the mic position. But for me it sounds better than the reamped track :
Old 25th September 2012
  #20
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ha ha i originally didnt hear the track now i hear it it sounds like the tone pot on the guitar is not fully up on the original d.i.
Old 25th September 2012
  #21
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I think for the kind of music you're playing, it just needs more distortion. Or just use an amp simulation plugin, in case you can't crank that Mesa/Boogie.
Old 26th September 2012
  #22
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With a dual rec you need to crank the volume real loud. I don't hear any speaker excursion, just preamp. Keep your gain where it is but crank the volume, work those speakers.
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaoTzu ➑️
ha ha i originally didnt hear the track now i hear it it sounds like the tone pot on the guitar is not fully up on the original d.i.
Yes it sounds like this. But listen to the monitor track I posted in message #19, that's exaclty the same take where the DI track in message #1 was recorded. There the sound is ok. I think I have a problem with the volume of my DI track. I already tried to nomalize the whole track to -0.1dB but that didn't help. Maybe I should try to normalize parts of the DI track and not the whole one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinderwet ➑️
I think for the kind of music you're playing, it just needs more distortion. Or just use an amp simulation plugin, in case you can't crank that Mesa/Boogie.
I tried to compare with other bands of my genre... Since I have a dual reactifier I don't want to use an amp simulation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KRStudio ➑️
With a dual rec you need to crank the volume real loud. I don't hear any speaker excursion, just preamp. Keep your gain where it is but crank the volume, work those speakers.
Thanks for the hint, I usually increase the volume until I see the speaker moving a little bit on certain riffs. But maybe that is not enough?
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry13 ➑️
Yes it sounds like this. But listen to the monitor track I posted in message #19, that's exaclty the same take where the DI track in message #1 was recorded. There the sound is ok. I think I have a problem with the volume of my DI track. I already tried to nomalize the whole track to -0.1dB but that didn't help. Maybe I should try to normalize parts of the DI track and not the whole one?


I tried to compare with other bands of my genre... Since I have a dual reactifier I don't want to use an amp simulation...


Thanks for the hint, I usually increase the volume until I see the speaker moving a little bit on certain riffs. But maybe that is not enough?
i use gain instead of normalise much more natural sounding.
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #25
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry13 ➑️
the DI track needs some work, but can you give me an example what to do on the DI track? How can I achieve more punch and dynamics?
Bring up the trebel knob and work on proper timing.

If the guitar player can't properly time well, I'd suggest some hard editing before running through a re-amp.
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJFI ➑️
Bring up the trebel knob and work on proper timing.

If the guitar player can't properly time well, I'd suggest some hard editing before running through a re-amp.
When I understand you correctly you mean re record the DI tracks with more treble from the guitar? (And proper timing )

For editing, you mean something like this?
Video Tutorial: Slip Editing In Cubase - YouTube
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #27
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry13 ➑️
When I understand you correctly you mean re record the DI tracks with more treble from the guitar? (And proper timing )

For editing, you mean something like this?
Video Tutorial: Slip Editing In Cubase - YouTube
1) Yes
2) Not familiar with Cubase (I'm an Acid/Protools/Reaper guy) but based on a quick skim-through of the video, I'd say yes.
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry13 ➑️
I tried to compare with other bands of my genre...
And what's your conclusion?
Old 26th September 2012 | Show parent
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinderwet ➑️
And what's your conclusion?
Compared to the first 14 seconds of this, maybe a little bit more gain than in my reamped track, but not too much:
TERROR - Keepers Of The Faith Album Preview - YouTube

Or what do you think? Maybe my ears are not trained enough...
Old 26th September 2012
  #30
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I was going by the 3rd sample you posted, and it sounds like it did have more distortion, despite the exact same amp settings, which tells me your DI signal was weaker than the one in that sample. I would say the one in the vid sounds more distorted as well. Yours sound more "crunchy", so on the sustaining note (from 0:12 on in your 2nd sample), the note dies off rather quickly, with just a touch of "hair" in the decay.
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