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Harrison Introduces 32C Channel Plugin (AAX, AU, VST, VST3)
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #811
Gear Nut
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey ➡️
My guess is if Dan Worrall did a video on what are the important questions to ask in the first place, it would be a fairly different video than what we're used to seeing from him. But his videos are for a different purpose. He's clarifying whether plugins can be made to do identical things, and even more importantly, he's showing people how to assess that for themselves. But this is because it's what people want, not necessarily because it's what people need.
My takeaway from Dan's video is that he divides EQs into tracking EQs and mixing EQs, with the former having limitations and coloration that contribute to their character. Given that premise, he's critical of a limited console emulation that nulls with a digital parametric EQ.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #812
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey ➡️
No one would accept Harrison's results anyway, so it should be done by a third party.
The free EQ analyzer lets you compare plugin EQs yourself. You have to sandwich the plugin you want to analyze between two instances. If you sandwich another plugin on another track EQ Curve analyzer will let you see the curves of the plugins you want to compare. No more golden ears needed for Plugin Doctors.

I stumbled over it two days ago. Can't remember where I learned about it.The option within the plugin to compare the phase plots adds another layer to the discussion I think.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #813
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis ➡️
So let me get this straight, cramping is a problem but you can duplicate the curves with other eq’s..... Harrison are a bunch of liars but the guy is on the thread answering your questions/concerns....the way different bands interact is the secret to a great eq...

Great tools are made to save time. This train wreck seems to be people analyzing hype and not actually using the tool....

Whatta trollfest!
So you are absolutely totally fine when a company misleads you with fancy marketing talk which is not implemented in the plugin.

Even worse, if you criticize it you're a troll....

I think this is the world upside down to be honest.
Old 3 days ago
  #814
Lives for gear
 
poshook's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
This thread is pretty funny. 9 out of 10 plugins developers use the same fancy marketing speech. There are tons of "analog" recreations but most of them has nothing to do with their hw counterparts. There are less than 10 people on gearspace capable making high quality mixes even with stock plugins. All others will always look for best sounding plugins with no success.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #815
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by poshook ➡️
This thread is pretty funny. 9 out of 10 plugins developers use the same fancy marketing speech. There are tons of "analog" recreations but most of them has nothing to do with their hw counterparts. There are less than 10 people on gearspace capable making high quality mixes even with stock plugins. All others will always look for best sounding plugins with no success.
I must have missed the joke; which bit is funny? That consumers are being misled, or that they have no hope of producing anything worthwhile in audio?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #816
Quote:
Originally Posted by poshook ➡️
9 out of 10 plugins developers use the same fancy marketing speech.
So that means we have to accept it?

Or should we stand up and criticize it?

I know i'll never accept marketing BS. Especially not in the case in which the developer is not even willing to admit it.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #817
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voiceover Guy ➡️
If you apply a 6dB boost without the Low Pass and Hi Pass filers engaged it does not 'cramp' (even at 44 and 48 kHz).

You're looking at a shelf (default). Turn on bell mode to see the cramping.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #818
Lives for gear
 
easyrider's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
People defending a plug that can be nulled with a free DAW plugin…

And one that costs over $100

You can actually buy fully fledged Reaper for less



Bizarre…
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #819
Lives for gear
 
poshook's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stikkers ➡️
So that means we have to accept it?

Or should we stand up and criticize it?

I know i'll never accept marketing BS. Especially not in the case in which the developer is not even willing to admit it.
You don't have to accept it. Just keep in mind that except Acustica Audio there is no other plugin developer that could truly use "analog" word in any of his marketing claims. So I wonder why is this thread so special that many of you have to put so much effort spreading the truth here
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #820
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stikkers ➡️
So you are absolutely totally fine when a company misleads you with fancy marketing talk which is not implemented in the plugin.

Even worse, if you criticize it you're a troll....

I think this is the world upside down to be honest.
At no point in history have consoles affected source material by magic. There are electrical components attached to the knobs and faders on the console, and the manipulation of the current flowing through those components affects the sound of the source material in a more or less predictable way. And the electrical components chosen dictate the nature of that manipulation. Hence the EQ “curves” we hear from any piece of hardware EQ. Those are the result of the components used.

Harrison is saying that these EQ curves are either identical to, or very closely representative of, the curves on the original desk. Those curves could ONLY be the result of the resistors, capacitors and transistors used in the original hardware. So, if they’ve accurately recreated the curves, then they’ve NECESSARILY also accurately modeled those components.

The goal of console designers has always been to make the whole sound manipulation process more predictable, with fewer nonlinearities, less noise and less harmonic distortion. So the fact that these curves don’t reflect variances like PA simulate with TMT, or introduce the originally UNWANTED noise and distortion, isn’t a bad thing. It means this is as close to what the designers originally intended as we can get. That should be celebrated, not scorned.

There has never been a piece of hardware that affected source signals in a specific way because the engineer would twiddle the knobs and say, “starlight, star bright, first star I see tonight, I wish I may, I wish I might have a tighter Q at +6 than I get at +3.” It’s all down to the hardware. If the curves are accurate, the hardware has been modeled accurately. Period. What part of this are people not understanding?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #821
Gear Maniac
 
Its Mork's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by easyrider ➡️
People defending a plug that can be nulled with a free DAW plugin…

And one that costs over $100

You can actually buy fully fledged Reaper for less



Bizarre…
People are buying DAWs although they could have one for free. Different people, different workflows and freedom of choice. It’s not that you are forced to buy anything.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #822
Quote:
Originally Posted by metraith ➡️
At no point in history have consoles affected source material by magic. There are electrical components attached to the knobs and faders on the console, and the manipulation of the current flowing through those components affects the sound of the source material in a more or less predictable way. And the electrical components chosen dictate the nature of that manipulation. Hence the EQ “curves” we hear from any piece of hardware EQ. Those are the result of the components used.

Harrison is saying that these EQ curves are either identical to, or very closely representative of, the curves on the original desk. Those curves could ONLY be the result of the resistors, capacitors and transistors used in the original hardware. So, if they’ve accurately recreated the curves, then they’ve NECESSARILY also accurately modeled those components.

The goal of console designers has always been to make the whole sound manipulation process more predictable, with fewer nonlinearities, less noise and less harmonic distortion. So the fact that these curves don’t reflect variances like PA simulate with TMT, or introduce the originally UNWANTED noise and distortion, isn’t a bad thing. It means this is as close to what the designers originally intended as we can get. That should be celebrated, not scorned.

There has never been a piece of hardware that affected source signals in a specific way because the engineer would twiddle the knobs and say, “starlight, star bright, first star I see tonight, I wish I may, I wish I might have a tighter Q at +6 than I get at +3.” It’s all down to the hardware. If the curves are accurate, the hardware has been modeled accurately. Period. What part of this are people not understanding?
When you advertise as "every resistor, capacitor, and transistor is included in the model" you'd expect some coloration in the plugin.

It's not there and that's misleading. Misleading customers is UNWANTED behavior.

What part of that don't you understand?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #823
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by metraith ➡️
At no point in history have consoles affected source material by magic. There are electrical components attached to the knobs and faders on the console, and the manipulation of the current flowing through those components affects the sound of the source material in a more or less predictable way. And the electrical components chosen dictate the nature of that manipulation. Hence the EQ “curves” we hear from any piece of hardware EQ. Those are the result of the components used.

Harrison is saying that these EQ curves are either identical to, or very closely representative of, the curves on the original desk. Those curves could ONLY be the result of the resistors, capacitors and transistors used in the original hardware. So, if they’ve accurately recreated the curves, then they’ve NECESSARILY also accurately modeled those components.

The goal of console designers has always been to make the whole sound manipulation process more predictable, with fewer nonlinearities, less noise and less harmonic distortion. So the fact that these curves don’t reflect variances like PA simulate with TMT, or introduce the originally UNWANTED noise and distortion, isn’t a bad thing. It means this is as close to what the designers originally intended as we can get. That should be celebrated, not scorned.

There has never been a piece of hardware that affected source signals in a specific way because the engineer would twiddle the knobs and say, “starlight, star bright, first star I see tonight, I wish I may, I wish I might have a tighter Q at +6 than I get at +3.” It’s all down to the hardware. If the curves are accurate, the hardware has been modeled accurately. Period. What part of this are people not understanding?
Plugin consumers, the vast majority of which are hobbyists looking for fun ear candy toys (including myself), expect analogue component modelling to be included in the plugin itself if it is marketed as component modelled. Whether they understand what that means, or why they should want it, is largely irrelevant.

If what you've written above is true for Harrison, then we can demonstrably say that their messaging has gone wide of the mark, otherwise this thread would only be 3 pages long.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #824
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
This thread is long since anybody who wants can use Bertome EQ to make videos easily on YT these days. Without ever realizing the phase plot in the plugin. Nor listening what happens to the phase. Why should they if the curves look great?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #825
Gear Nut
 
Voiceover Guy's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzzinlouie ➡️
You're looking at a shelf (default). Turn on bell mode to see the cramping.
Affirmative.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #826
Deleted 852f917
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis ➡️
Have you actually demoed this? If so what don’t you like about it?
Why would I waste my time demoing this? OR responding to your sealioning for that matter...?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #827
Deleted 852f917
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by poshook ➡️
You don't have to accept it. Just keep in mind that except Acustica Audio there is no other plugin developer that could truly use "analog" word in any of his marketing claims. So I wonder why is this thread so special that many of you have to put so much effort spreading the truth here
Again here is the "It's all digital you IDIOTS!" defence.

Not good enough.
Old 3 days ago
  #828
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Could you (we) try to understand each other? We're all on the same side here, and what needs to be said has been said already, many times. Maybe the console eq is this clean? I doubt it but what do I know? I'm still happy using this. Although, I wouldn't mind if Harrison would introduce a mode with some nonlinearities, to get some crunch with it..
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #829
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stikkers ➡️
When you advertise as "every resistor, capacitor, and transistor is included in the model" you'd expect some coloration in the plugin.

It's not there and that's misleading. Misleading customers is UNWANTED behavior.

What part of that don't you understand?
I understand your point of view, and I respectfully disagree. It has been demonstrated earlier in this thread that there is some harmonic distortion, but at a very low level. Too low to hear, but probably enough to build up across an entire mix. I don’t feel anyone has been deceived or misled by the marketing. The proportional Q would not be possible if those components were not “included in the model.” They are there, so I feel the marketing is correct.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #830
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by metraith ➡️
I understand your point of view, and I respectfully disagree. It has been demonstrated earlier in this thread that there is some harmonic distortion, but at a very low level. Too low to hear, but probably enough to build up across an entire mix. I don’t feel anyone has been deceived or misled by the marketing. The proportional Q would not be possible if those components were not “included in the model.” They are there, so I feel the marketing is correct.
Is that the post where they weren't sure if it was harmonic distortion or quantization noise? Harrison have confirmed there is no harmonic distortion, so I think we might have narrowed that down.

As for proportional Q requiring component modelling, where do you get that from? I'm pretty sure ProQ and bx Digital do not model a single analogue component.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #831
Quote:
Originally Posted by metraith ➡️
I understand your point of view, and I respectfully disagree. It has been demonstrated earlier in this thread that there is some harmonic distortion, but at a very low level. Too low to hear, but probably enough to build up across an entire mix. I don’t feel anyone has been deceived or misled by the marketing. The proportional Q would not be possible if those components were not “included in the model.” They are there, so I feel the marketing is correct.
Let's agree to disagree.

I hope you enjoy the Harrison sound which created those fabulous albums in the past. Although without the coloration, and without the input gain response. Is there anything left of that sound? Oh yes, the curves. Well, enjoy those curves!
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #832
Lives for gear
 
poshook's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stikkers ➡️
When you advertise as "every resistor, capacitor, and transistor is included in the model" you'd expect some coloration in the plugin.

It's not there and that's misleading. Misleading customers is UNWANTED behavior.

What part of that don't you understand?
Ok, now it makes sense. Some harmonic distortion and voila, plugin is carefully modelled component by component, simple as that. However it's somehow surprising that there is no algorithmic plugin that sounds the same as its hardware counterpart (the same means in the same ballpark). So what is wrong with all of them? Is Harrison so much worse in comparison with most of the competition? NO!
Does harmonic distortion make plugin closer to HW counterpart than right EQ curve or phase response? Not sure. In algo plugin world the most of the similarity with the real thing is the GUI, period. And it will stay like this for very long time as making profit from plugin development is more and more difficult.
Do you need real console sound, save money and buy real console. Plugin is not a console, plugin is trying to be a console for a fraction of money and there are many different approaches how to do it. None of them seem to be perfectly right, so stop crying like a baby and make some music
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #833
Gear Nut
 
c0nan's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis ➡️
I think GS is due for another name rebrand
Grammar Slutz
Cramp Slutz
Plug in Doctor Slutz



God forbid anyone actually considers time saved interacting with well designed tools...

That one seems demographically appropriate
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #834
Quote:
Originally Posted by poshook ➡️
None of them seem to be perfectly right, so stop crying like a baby and make some music
Who are you to tell me to stop "crying"?

Is that your method of proving a point, by making personal insults?

Unnecessary and reported as abusive.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #835
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stikkers ➡️
Let's agree to disagree.

I hope you enjoy the Harrison sound which created those fabulous albums in the past. Although without the coloration, and without the input gain response. Is there anything left of that sound? Oh yes, the curves. Well, enjoy those curves!
I’m good with that. This has been such a ridiculous and frustrating thread, I appreciate this discourse remaining civil and not getting out of hand.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #836
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by poshook ➡️
stop crying like a baby and make some music
You might try looking up the definition for the word forum while you're at it.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #837
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders ➡️
Is that the post where they weren't sure if it was harmonic distortion or quantization noise? Harrison have confirmed there is no harmonic distortion, so I think we might have narrowed that down.

As for proportional Q requiring component modelling, where do you get that from? I'm pretty sure ProQ and bx Digital do not model a single analogue component.
That’s an interesting point. The proportional Q in the API and Harrison consoles was certainly a product of the components used. FF may represent a digital generation of “meta-modeling”, where the behavior of an existing EQ curve is being modeled without modeling the components that create those curves. But it’s also entirely possible that I’m simply wrong. That could very well be the case.
Old 3 days ago
  #838
1TP
Gear Nut
 
I have a question to the people who have no issue with the claim that all components are modeled. Would you in that case also say that the Reaper devs have also modeled all of the Harrison console components in their EQ?
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #839
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1TP ➡️
I have a question to the people who have no issue with the claim that all components are modeled. Would you in that case also say that the Reaper devs have also modeled all of the Harrison console components in their EQ?
Not at all. With Reaper’s EQ, you have to use an analyzer to see the curves being generated by 32C, then selectively modify the Q to match the Q at various levels of boost and attenuation to match those on the 32C. That doesn’t really prove anything. If you appreciate the proportional Q in the 32C, then it’s much simpler to just use that. It may be possible to recreate the same EQ moves with another digital EQ, but the word simple is not going to part of that process. The people who like this plugin appreciate the simplicity of creating the curves, I think.

Also, I’ve been unable to find a compressor, leveler or limiter in Reaper’s EQ.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #840
Lives for gear
 
BM Grabber's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonch ➡️
It's been claimed more than once that these curves can't be matched without a lot of effort. It didn't seem to take Dan or Paul much effort to do so. They simply used standard bell curves with the Q adjusted to match in ReaEQ and Waves F6. You can see the values they used in their videos. If you doubt you'd arrive at them organically, you could make a preset so that you always do.



I have a huge problem with this statement. It suggests that one should only ever rely on subjective perceptions and never investigate further. Hearing perception is heavily influenced by psychological factors, which is why technical analysis is so crucial in objectively determining actual behavior. We all know the anecdote about the client or producer who's presented a sweetening knob that isn't wired to anything.
So you don't think the video is edited? You don't think that this actually has taken him more time than the lenght of the finished video?
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