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Apple Music announces Spatial Audio with Dolby Atmos; will bring Lossless Audio to entire catalog
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #61
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Hardtoe's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by miscend ➡️
I think it was mixed with Atmos surround speakers not headphones.
In the Serban thread John Hanes said he recently remixed the Weeknds albums for atmos in his proper studio - I cant imagine him doing a poor mix so something else must be off in translation somewhere…

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
So the big crush of 7 days a week has ended. I mixed 3 Weeknd albums, 4 Ariana Grande albums, 1 Maroon 5, 1 Julia Michales, 1 Taylor Swift, 2 Pink , and a bunch of other singles in Atmos. Still doing Atmos work pretty steadily, but the big crush was because everyone wanted to be ready for the Apple release; which has been pushed back until now because, I think, everyone was in the same boat trying to get as much Atmos content ready.
Old 1 week ago
  #62
Gear Addict
 
Look, all of the engineers who worked on these projects used actual atmos surround set ups. That is not the problem here. The problem is listening to these mixes on headphones. I’ve listened to these mixes through Apple TV on Dolby atmos soundbar/sub combo, and honestly it sounds pretty good. But trying to create “spatial audio” for music in headphones is a mistake.

Sure, it makes sense in virtual reality, but that type “spatial audio” is completely different from what Dolby atmos is and honestly isn’t comparable. But correct me if I’m wrong, is atmos used for virtual reality??? If that’s the case, it could be nice if used in a virtual reality concert or something like that.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #63
The collection of Jazz classics Apple are showing off sound better in original stereo on Qobuz Hi Res

The 'widening' or whatever they have done to the tracks robs the central bass and dissolves the tracks it into a thinner (tinny?) "out of phase" thin soup.

On to pop - Billie Eilish vocal tone - loses richness & sounds less 'intimate' less there in front of you. Same with Taylor Swift. (both have hyped top end - again - less rich)

Fall out boy - Uma Thurman - Apple thin painful - Qobuz hi res = more rich / full - powerful?

Norah Jones - Apple music Atmos = thin, phasey and wooly bass - Qobuz Hires = all good
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #64
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodakell ➡️
…..But trying to create “spatial audio” for music in headphones is a mistake.
.
It’s another fun and creative option, hardly a mistake.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #65
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TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by louderjamz ➡️
Nice, but something that's properly optimised for binaural mix doesn't sound good on stereo speakers in my experience.

I imagine there is Atmos stuff optimised for headphones on Apple Music (Airpods is huge business for Apple) but we don't know.

Unless they eventually add a "Made for headphones" logo
Binaural mode is not meant to be played on stereo speakers! Binaural is for headphones, in ear, AirPods, etc.

Binaural does not mean it is a stereo downmix; the binaural downmix IS the "made for headphones" version of the Atmos mix.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #66
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TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe ➡️
In the Serban thread John Hanes said he recently remixed the Weeknds albums for atmos in his proper studio - I cant imagine him doing a poor mix so something else must be off in translation somewhere…
Hardtoe,

You are correct, and I do think things are getting lost in translation.

Yes, the mixes that I am doing for Atmos are done in a proper 7.1.4 studio as is the (minimum) requirement for submitting Atmos mixes to all of the streaming platforms.

As I noted upthread, Binaural is NOT meant to play back on stereo speakers. There is NOT a stereo downmix included in the Atmos files/stream. I you are listening to Atmos, binaural or otherwise, on stereo speakers it will sound off.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #67
Conclusion

This new Spatial stuff from Apple is an (effective but sonically bogus) distraction for Apple users while they develop hi res capable hardware to sell everyone.

Amazon HD and Qobuz and Tidal are all HiRes - Apple was lagging behind. They will still lag behind until they develop hardware to present playback of their music catalog at a studio quality standard.

I don't really want to hear any more of it...
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #68
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
Hardtoe,

You are correct, and I do think things are getting lost in translation.

Yes, the mixes that I am doing for Atmos are done in a proper 7.1.4 studio as is the (minimum) requirement for submitting Atmos mixes to all of the streaming platforms.

As I noted upthread, Binaural is NOT meant to play back on stereo speakers. There is NOT a stereo downmix included in the Atmos files/stream. I you are listening to Atmos, binaural or otherwise, on stereo speakers it will sound off.
Hi John,

Thanks for showing up in this thread. So I wonder what Apple are offering in Apple Music? Your Taylor Swift mix? Is it an Atmos mix or a processed 'Spatial" treatment of your stereo mix, (that you didn't sign off on) ? Because there is no note saying - "This mix is only for Atmos equipped playback, not headphones'
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #69
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TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules ➡️
Hi John,

Thanks for showing up in this thread. So I wonder what Apple are offering in Apple Music? Your Atmos mix or a processed 'Spatial" treatment of you stereo mix, (that you didn't sign off on) ?
Jules,

Happy to be here.

I've checked a few things and they are using the Atmos mixes as far as I can see. I can't think of a reason why they would not be.

As far as how things are sounding in binaural mode, this is the wild west right now for Atmos mixing. We are all trying to figure it out as we go. Some things will be nice, some will not. Some will be experimentally wild, others will hew close to the stereo mix and listeners might be hard pressed to tell the difference.

My goal in Atmos mixing is to mix for Atmos speaker systems, for the full Immersive experience. I'll then work on the binaural mode to make it as good as I can without losing the original vibe of the stereo mix and without making it a washed out spatial experience.

It is a balancing act and some things work well, and other might not.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #70
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TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules ➡️
Hi John,

Thanks for showing up in this thread. So I wonder what Apple are offering in Apple Music? Your Taylor Swift mix? Is it an Atmos mix or a processed 'Spatial" treatment of your stereo mix, (that you didn't sign off on) ? Because there is no note saying - "This mix is only for Atmos equipped playback, not headphones'
Every Atmos mix is required to have the binaural modes set and is "required" to have been monitored in binaural by the mix engineer.

All Atmos mixes are therefor ready for binaural headphone playback.

How that all sounds and works out in the end is again matters of choices and preferences.

I mixed the Taylor Swift "Lover" Album for Atmos, I didn't mix the "Folklore" Atmos mixes.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #71
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules ➡️
The collection of Jazz classics Apple are showing off sound better in original stereo on Qobuz Hi Res

The 'widening' or whatever they have done to the tracks robs the central bass and dissolves the tracks it into a thinner (tinny?) "out of phase" thin soup.

On to pop - Billie Eilish vocal tone - loses richness & sounds less 'intimate' less there in front of you. Same with Taylor Swift. (both have hyped top end - again - less rich)

Fall out boy - Uma Thurman - Apple thin painful - Qobuz hi res = more rich / full - powerful?

Norah Jones - Apple music Atmos = thin, phasey and wooly bass - Qobuz Hires = all good
Why are you comparing the Atmos/spatial mixes to Qobuz lossless? Apples and oranges. Why not compare apples to apples and compare the lossless product?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #72
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Jantex's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight ➡️
Where did you get that impression? Furthermore why would they do that when they have access to the original material?
Do they, are you sure? How do you know what was submitted to them? A product being certified for MIT should have no intersample peaks for example, but lots of releases do...so how can you trust the quality?



Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight ➡️
Lots of stuff being mixed up in that paragraph. Bit-accurate rips from a CD you own compared to a Deezer FLAC file implies that the best thing Deezer has is at least the same 16/44.1 source that created your CD (because if they had a 24-bit source that they downsampled themselves to create a 16/44.1 FLAC its not going to be bit-accurate to your CD rip). If that is truly the case then it shouldn't be surprising that once the FLAC is uncompressed and compared to your ripped file that they are bit-accurate.

But that has zip to do with Apple Music lossless files. You claim it sounds worse. Could be a billion reasons that is true bias notwithstanding. You got the "impression" that they're just using the AAC files despite I suspect zero proof. That could easily color your judgement as much as any real-world reasons.
Absolutely nothing been mixed up. Of course we don't know what source master the Deezer has any of their files. But few CDs I tried (older releases of course, I haven't bought a new physical CD for almost a decade now I bleieve) of older releases were bit accurate with their FLACS, which makes it obvious that in these particular cases tuey had those CD 16/44.1 versions as masters. I claim comparing Apple lossless, which also has 16//44.1 in their catalog, to Deezer FLACs sounds inferior being played back from Apple Music...don't know why and it is not just subjective barely noticable impression. And the only possible explanation for this is that they are using bad source files to create their ALACs.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #73
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
I mixed the Taylor Swift "Lover" Album for Atmos, I didn't mix the "Folklore" Atmos mixes.
Perhaps you also mixed Ariana Grande's "positions"?

It has the first slot in Apple Music's "Pop" Spatial Music playlist and certainly deserves that spot as an excellent example of Atmos for Music for first-time listeners.

And all the more appropriate with its song-title.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #74
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
Jules,

Happy to be here.

I've checked a few things and they are using the Atmos mixes as far as I can see. I can't think of a reason why they would not be.

As far as how things are sounding in binaural mode, this is the wild west right now for Atmos mixing. We are all trying to figure it out as we go. Some things will be nice, some will not. Some will be experimentally wild, others will hew close to the stereo mix and listeners might be hard pressed to tell the difference.

My goal in Atmos mixing is to mix for Atmos speaker systems, for the full Immersive experience. I'll then work on the binaural mode to make it as good as I can without losing the original vibe of the stereo mix and without making it a washed out spatial experience.

It is a balancing act and some things work well, and other might not.
So you are working on the binaural mode stereo mix as well for headphones? So you are making 2 mixes basically and apple or tidal will automatically choose which version it will use for playback?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #75
Lives for gear
 
TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightjar ➡️
Perhaps you also mixed Ariana Grande's "positions"?

It has the first slot in Apple Music's "Pop" Spatial Music playlist and certainly deserves that spot as an excellent example of Atmos for Music for first-time listeners.

And all the more appropriate with its song-title.
Yes I did, Thanks!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #76
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex ➡️
Do they, are you sure? How do you know what was submitted to them? A product being certified for MIT should have no intersample peaks for example, but lots of releases do...so how can you trust the quality?
What I know is that Apple, like any of the other streaming services, works with the labels and a large number of distributors, like The Orchard, to provide masters to be transcoded by the streaming services into the various streaming formats. In the case of Apple Music specfically anything labeled Apple Digital Masters REQUIRES a digital master. Not only that it requires a Apple-approved mastering studio.

I am highly skeptical that a label like Sony Music is going to allow anyone to transcode an AAC file back to "lossless". That is a stupid business move for many reasons on both sides of the contract. And frankly if any streaming service were doing this we'd have heard about it by now when some of these services have been operating for over a decade.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #77
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TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodakell ➡️
So you are working on the binaural mode stereo mix as well for headphones? So you are making 2 mixes basically and apple or tidal will automatically choose which version it will use for playback?
First, we need to get terminology straight. We can't use binaural and stereo interchangeably. Binaural is not stereo; it is a 2-channel downmix to be delivered to headphones.

So the process is to do the mix, record it into the Dolby Renderer.

This captures the entire Atmos mix, which will be essentially a .WAV file with 12 to xxx tracks of audio. 12 Bed tracks, plus a track for each object. I'll generally use up to 20 object tracks, so that would be a .WAV file that has 32 tracks. The renderer also captures the Object metadata which tells the decoder where to pan objects.

Then inside the renderer, there are options to create the Binaural Downmix. Basically can set each bed track and object as Off, Near, Mid, Far. This is also encoded into the ADM-BWV file that is sent out for delivery.

At the decode end, where you are listening, your decoder will know if you are listening on headphones and decode and dowmix to binaural with the specified settings, or know if you are listening on a multichannel speaker system where is will decode and send beds and objects to the speakers available to it. So if you have a 5.1 speaker system, the decoder will know and playback to the appropriate speakers. If you have a 9.2.6 speaker system, it will also know that and will playback.

So one file is delivered and streamed that can be decoded to whichever listening environment is appropriate.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #78
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
First, we need to get terminology straight. We can't use binaural and stereo interchangeably. Binaural is not stereo; it is a 2-channel downmix to be delivered to headphones.

So the process is to do the mix, record it into the Dolby Renderer.

This captures the entire Atmos mix, which will be essentially a .WAV file with 12 to xxx tracks of audio. 12 Bed tracks, plus a track for each object. I'll generally use up to 20 object tracks, so that would be a .WAV file that has 32 tracks. The renderer also captures the Object metadata which tells the decoder where to pan objects.

Then inside the renderer, there are options to create the Binaural Downmix. Basically can set each bed track and object as Off, Near, Mid, Far. This is also encoded into the ADM-BWV file that is sent out for delivery.

At the decode end, where you are listening, your decoder will know if you are listening on headphones and decode and dowmix to binaural with the specified settings, or know if you are listening on a multichannel speaker system where is will decode and send beds and objects to the speakers available to it. So if you have a 5.1 speaker system, the decoder will know and playback to the appropriate speakers. If you have a 9.2.6 speaker system, it will also know that and will playback.

So one file is delivered and streamed that can be decoded to whichever listening environment is appropriate.
Sorry about my terminology. I was simply just wondering if you work on the binaural mode headphone mix like it is a separate mix. I assumed this would be a better solution considering you can at mix for headphones so the consumer gets a better product on their end. I haven't worked in atmos in years so I wasn't sure if dolby created a solution to do something like this. It sounds like that binaural downmix is being done by a downmixing renderer made by dolby and the decoder on the consumer end will decide what downmix they get based on their setup.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #79
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TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kodakell ➡️
Sorry about my terminology. I was simply just wondering if you work on the binaural mode headphone mix like it is a separate mix. I assumed this would be a better solution considering you can at mix for headphones so the consumer gets a better product on their end. I haven't worked in atmos in years so I wasn't sure if dolby created a solution to do something like this. It sounds like that binaural downmix is being done by a downmixing renderer made by dolby.
No worries, you probably know the difference, but for someone playing back a binaural mix on a stereo speaker system it will not be . . . let's say not ideal.

So I'm making an effort to separate the terms.

You are right, there is not a separate process to create binaural directly from stereo or as a separate process from "Full Atmos".
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #80
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex ➡️

I am also quite sceptical about Apple’s lossless catalog. I got impression like they converted their AAC format into ALAC…which would be as stupid as it gets, but wouldn’t surprise me at all with Apple. Compared to Deezer’s HiFi FLAC songs (44.1kHz 16bit) which are bit accurate from my rips I made from CDs, same songs sound much worse when streamed from Apple Music despite having “lossless audio” turned on in preferences. Lacking dynamic impact and excitement, like listening to standard AAC compared to FLAC. And really the difference is not small.
.
I don’t know about this. Apple has been asking for albums to be submitted as hi res WAV probably since the itunes store was first introduced. Definitely since they started the “mastered for itunes” program
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #81
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rojhmusic's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
No worries, you probably know the difference, but for someone playing back a binaural mix on a stereo speaker system it will not be . . . let's say not ideal.

So I'm making an effort to separate the terms.

You are right, there is not a separate process to create binaural directly from stereo or as a separate process from "Full Atmos".
Thank you for clarifying the atmos behind what apple is pushing right now!
Wish I could interview you on my YouTube channel about this one day!
Old 1 week ago
  #82
Gear Maniac
 
prog's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I'm probably making a stupid question and probably kinda OT, but how does the app know what "mix" should it play? I don't understand how, i.e. Tidal would know if I'm listening on speakers (stereo, 5.1, full atmos or whatever) or headphones?

I don't have Apple Music but in Tidal at least I don't understand that, and don't see any option to select what playback device I'm listening in, other than soundcard. (I'm on Hi Fi, so I have atmos support)
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #83
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules ➡️
Conclusion

This new Spatial stuff from Apple is an (effective but sonically bogus) distraction for Apple users while they develop hi res capable hardware to sell everyone.
My conclusion is somewhat the opposite.

Apple Music's new lossless streaming option is mostly a marketing buzz needed to keep up with consumer expectations. And the hi-rez in excess of 24/48 is just playing that game to a higher degree.

On the other hand, Spatial Audio is the leading edge of new era of music consumption.

We are at an inflection point as 1958 was for stereo.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #84
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TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by prog ➡️
I'm probably making a stupid question and probably kinda OT, but how does the app know what "mix" should it play? I don't understand how, i.e. Tidal would know if I'm listening on speakers (stereo, 5.1, full atmos or whatever) or headphones?

I don't have Apple Music but in Tidal at least I don't understand that, and don't see any option to select what playback device I'm listening in, other than soundcard. (I'm on Hi Fi, so I have atmos support)
I'll answer to the best of my understanding, but others maybe have more knowledge.

When you set up your home theatre receiver for Atmos, you would during the setup probably tell it which speakers you have and it would probably do a room sweep and alignment process.

If you are listening on headphones or AirPods through apple or the smartphone OS, it would deliver the binaural mix. I've heard that Apple and Samsung will delivery the full Atmos mix, and not the binaural, to AirPods (and the samsung equivalent) that have head tracking capability. I've not been able to confirm that for myself.

If you have two speakers hooked up to a computer, it is probably sending you a Lo/Ro downmix of the 5.1 downmix of the Atmos mix. All of that down mixing done in real-time on playback by the Atmos decoder in your system automatically.

So Tidal, Apple, etc. don't have a clue what you are listening on (unless the OS is sending them back user info). They are streaming to you the one Atmos file, and your playback system is figuring out what to deliver as audio to you.
Old 1 week ago
  #85
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Hi,

This is a great chance for us to have you here John. Thank you !
I didn't have the chance to listen to your mixes in a proper atmos speaker configuration. But I hope I will very soon !

I'm really wondering why -18lufs for atmos music ? All the atmos mixes sound quieter than the stereo mixes (on apple music)... They should "normalize", But in that case this means limiting.... :/ Dolby should have change to -14 for Atmos Music.

Most of what I heard with my airpods sound way better in stereo than in atmos... atmos mixes tend to be darker (when compared to stereo versions). I don't know how Apple Music deal with the meta data. Maybe Dolby should have done more than just meta data for the binaural downmix ? Don't know.. But let's be honest : most people will listen to the binaural render only.

You can easily compare Atmos vs Stereo when playing a track by changing the "dolby atmos : always/never" in the iphone music parameters. It switches versions automatically
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #86
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TheHanes's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert_kincaid ➡️
Hi,

This is a great chance for us to have you here John. Thank you !
I didn't have the chance to listen to your mixes in a proper atmos speaker configuration. But I hope I will very soon !

I'm really wondering why -18lufs for atmos music ? All the atmos mixes sound quieter than the stereo mixes (on apple music)... They should "normalize", But in that case this means limiting.... :/ Dolby should have change to -14 for Atmos Music.

Most of what I heard with my airpods sound way better in stereo than in atmos... atmos mixes tend to be darker (when compared to stereo versions). I don't know how Apple Music deal with the meta data. Maybe Dolby should have done more than just meta data for the binaural downmix ? Don't know.. But let's be honest : most people will listen to the binaural render only.

You can easily compare Atmos vs Stereo when playing a track by changing the "dolby atmos : always/never" in the iphone music parameters. It switches versions automatically
Thanks. I'm not sure precisely why -18LUFS was chosen, but I have a guess. I think maybe it has to do with the potential building up of volume as the Atmos mix is down mixed to "smaller" speaker systems. So to protect a 5.1 system from overloading when the 7.1.4 mix is down mixed to it, they needed to come up with a standard that is low enough to have extra headroom..

Total supposition on my part.

So the mixes are quieter when switching, but this may have the added benefit of limiting the loudness wars.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #87
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHanes ➡️
If you are listening on headphones or AirPods through apple or the smartphone OS, it would deliver the binaural mix. I've heard that Apple and Samsung will delivery the full Atmos mix, and not the binaural, to AirPods (and the samsung equivalent) that have head tracking capability. I've not been able to confirm that for myself.
Just as a point of note I have seen references to head tracking being enabled in iOS 15 when using AirPods Pro/Max with Apple Music.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212182
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #88
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight ➡️
Just as a point of note I have seen references to head tracking being enabled in iOS 15 when using AirPods Pro/Max with Apple Music.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212182
Head tracking is already working in current iOS 14.6, using AirPods Pro on an iPhone & watching newly released music videos within the Apple Music app.

Head tracking currently seems to be intended for video watching, not for music listening. Perhaps that is Apple's ongoing intent, or?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #89
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightjar ➡️
Head tracking is already working in current iOS 14.6, using AirPods Pro on an iPhone & watching newly released music videos within the Apple Music app.

Head tracking currently seems to be intended for video watching, not for music listening. Perhaps that is Apple's ongoing intent, or?
Its video only right now. They're talking for music tracks in ios 15. from the link I provided:


Is spatial audio with dynamic head tracking available for music?

We are excited to announce that spatial audio with dynamic head tracking is coming to Apple Music in the fall. Dynamic head tracking creates an even more immersive experience for spatial audio. It brings music to life by delivering sound that dynamically adjusts as you turn your head. And you can experience spatial audio with dynamic head tracking on AirPods Pro and AirPods Max with a compatible iPhone or iPad.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #90
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezoneight ➡️
Its video only right now. They're talking for music tracks in ios 15. from the link I provided:

Is spatial audio with dynamic head tracking available for music?.
Head tracking is not available now for music-only tracks in Apple Music..

BUT...

If you want a taste of it, you can go to the specific Music Videos section of Apple Music and find newly released videos of some of the same songs just released in Spatial Audio..

And the Music Video versions WILL have head tracking now.

Fun to explore...
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