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Introducing the New RME Fireface UCX II
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #61
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrabtharsHammer ➡️
According to this article, Thunderbolt „provides real PCI Express audio – performance under Mac and Windows with lowest latency, lowest system overhead and lowest CPU load“. I expect an audio interface for approx. 1300 EUR to deliver that, and not stick to a 21 year old standard. 2.0 was „good enough“ for many years, but it‘s about time to move on.
if you had actually read the thread you would have seen already that there is only half a millisecond more latency running USB vs Thunderbolt on the UFX. For those of us playing where latency matters, this is equivalent to moving <20 centimeters further away from your monitors. Unnoticeable.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #62
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27 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Temps ➡️
if you had actually read the thread you would have seen already that there is only half a millisecond more latency running USB vs Thunderbolt on the UFX. For those of us playing where latency matters, this is equivalent to moving <20 centimeters further away from your monitors. Unnoticeable.
If you read what's quoted there i reference to the important things too.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #63
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MattiasSwe's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I´m with you, why havent they made bigger changes to the converters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kappi ➡️
Is it just me who is disappointed about the converters? After more than a decade they just slidely updated the specs, like 2 dB. Huh? OK FS clock now, but thats about it?
Regarding the USB, the RME USB drivers are the best in the industry, they just work. If everything falls apart with whatever system i use, RME saves the day.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #64
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace ➡️
If you read what's quoted there i reference to the important things too.
Don't worry I read it - not my issue that you didn't understand. If there is such an insignificant amount of performance to be gained, what's the point in dropping backwards compatibility and breaking a ton of existing setups? My gig setup I used during lockdown was a 10 year old laptop hooked up to my Fireface UC... if they made the new interface TB only, I would have to replace my laptop, and in the end the performance of my rig will not have changed more than the tiniest bit. An interface this size doesn't even come close to maxing out USB anyway. It'd be really quite stupid of them to go TB only - no wonder they didn't.

Your quoted price is also nonsense. 1149 pounds including VAT is 919 without, that is ~1,068 euro, which makes the UCX II over 900 euro cheaper than the UAD/Antelope interfaces with comparable IO and only a bit more than MOTU interfaces with less IO and fewer features.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #65
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27 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Temps ➡️
Don't worry I read it - not my issue that you didn't understand. If there is such an insignificant amount of performance to be gained, what's the point in dropping backwards compatibility and breaking a ton of existing setups? My gig setup I used during lockdown was a 10 year old laptop hooked up to my Fireface UC... if they made the new interface TB only, I would have to replace my laptop, and in the end the performance of my rig will not have changed more than the tiniest bit. An interface this size doesn't even come close to maxing out USB anyway. It'd be really quite stupid of them to go TB only - no wonder they didn't.

Your quoted price is also nonsense. 1149 pounds including VAT is 919 without, that is ~1,068 euro, which makes the UCX II over 900 euro cheaper than the UAD/Antelope interfaces with comparable IO and only a bit more than MOTU interfaces with less IO and fewer features.
My quoted price? I think you need to read again. And if there is a post with quoted price you should argue with that.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #66
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TAFKAT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Temps ➡️
if you had actually read the thread you would have seen already that there is only half a millisecond more latency running USB vs Thunderbolt on the UFX. For those of us playing where latency matters, this is equivalent to moving <20 centimeters further away from your monitors. Unnoticeable.
I'll pop in for my quick 2 cents, FWIW !

Its not only the latency, its also the delivered performance at the respective latencies, each being equal in importance.

The RME USB 2/ USB 3 is unmatched, and for many/most, the move to TB would not be overly beneficial. For those that need the nth degree, I would actually point them straight to the HDSPe cards if they suited the working environment, and avoid the TB moving target, but I digress.

Re my work on the LLP thread, seems some are simply skimming and not full understanding the information presented , ( this is not directed at your btw ). I am referring more to the assumption posted here that the rating is based on just the delivered RTL value and that the Database is useless. I wont even bother engaging with that level of pigeon chess, LOL.

Getting back to the UXC II release, there are other advantages of remaining with a proven USB2 connectivity/firmware/driver for this release,

1 -The actual port is far more robust and reliable than that flimsy USB-C port.

2 - It uses the same USB driver as the previous gen which allows stacking of devices with previous gen if need be.

3 - The controller/firmware is compatible with USB-C ports, to connect the UFX II to USB-C only systems, it requires a simple USB-B to USB-C cable which is provided. I have that confirmed via MC from RME btw :-)

Also, lets be clear about USB-C in the current audio interface landscape, all competing USB-C interfaces on the market at this point are actually USB 2.0, they simply have a USB-C connector on the unit. So that doesn't bode well for those peddling the additional bandwidth argument.

Re Dante, AVB , why ?

Get the specific units if that is required, they are available, they have zero advantage in a smaller factor studio environment, IMO.

Thunderbolt, hmmm, elephant in the room, its simply a moving target , and its about to transition to TB4. Compatibility even on TB3 which has 2 revisions is spotty enough on Windows.

We have seen several manufacturers move away from TB releases , that is ringing loudly for those paying attention.

Anyhoo, as you were, peace and out

Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #67
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27 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT ➡️
We have seen several manufacturers move away from TB releases , that is ringing loudly for those paying attention.
I have not seen any other than RME doing that, but I dont follow that many. However I see a point doing that. And that is Apple. It is a different beast to get thunderbolt drivers approved by apple than it is to get a USB driver in place. So it is technically much harder to do it and with Arm based Mac's apple has the intention to stop non approved drivers. It is about economics rather than building the best possible solution.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #68
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TAFKAT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bace ➡️
I have not seen any other than RME doing that, but I dont follow that many. However I see a point doing that. And that is Apple. It is a different beast to get thunderbolt drivers approved by apple than it is to get a USB driver in place. So it is technically much harder to do it and with Arm based Mac's apple has the intention to stop non approved drivers. It is about economics rather than building the best possible solution.
2 off the top of my head, Focusrite dropped their Clarett TB2 line and moved it to USB , Apogee have shifted focus to USB devices as well.

In short, TB is not the end all as its far more difficult to develop working solutions, especially for those that do not have direct experience or the resources in firmware/driver development.

Motivation for the move away would vary.

Apples latest roadmap could be one factor, but to be honest I no idea what the status is with Apple Silicon and TB , but I would think the licensing would be the other way around, as in Intel approval for Apple, not Apple approval for Intel.

Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #69
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Collins ➡️
I would seriously compare the conversion and hp amps before making that decision.
While being an RME-driver fanboy for ages, the Motu´s ESS9026 sounds better than "any" RME interface or dac, imo (Adi-2 pro included).

I pray RME will someday do the step towards ESS as well...
Hi

Have you compared both? I purchased the RME ADI Pro FS recently.

I don't expect to get conversation near that quality at the Motu Ultralike Mk5 price.

I love my ADI Pro so much that I'm looking at adding another for my home studio. I have a professional studio but I mix at home a fair bit. The RME has been a treat to my ears.

If the Mk5 is even close I would definitely go for it for my home setup.

I'm just looking at conversation and headphone amp quality.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #70
Deleted 903526e
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurnUrBeats ➡️
Hi

Have you compared both? I purchased the RME ADI Pro FS recently.

I don't expect to get conversation near that quality at the Motu Ultralike Mk5 price.

I love my ADI Pro so much that I'm looking at adding another for my home studio. I have a professional studio but I mix at home a fair bit. The RME has been a treat to my ears.

If the Mk5 is even close I would definitely go for it for my home setup.

I'm just looking at conversation and headphone amp quality.
As I meantioned many times before on GS, I´m generally not a fan of the AKM 449x series converters (and I´ve owned and tested many of them), so take my verdict with a grain of salt .

I didn´t compare the Motu to the Adi-2 pro FS directly but to the Merging Anubis which uses the same ESS9026 dac and much preferred it over the Adi-2 Pro FS and Dac.

When I tested the new Ultralite, I was blown away by the quality of both the da-conversion and the hp-amp on a multichannel interface with such a price tag and it definitely reminded me of my Anubis, soundwise.
I couldn´t make a direct comparison - I sold the Anubis because of driver problems.

I compared it to my Mytek Brooklyn + , Topping DX-7 Pro, D-50s / A50s and 2 Soncoz dacs, all featuring higher level ESS-chips and it held its head up high and even won against some of them.

I only recorded synths with it so far and the AKM adc seems to do the job just fine. Most likely wouldn´t use it in my mastering-chain, though

The win10 asio driver works well and the performance is in the same ballpark as my Digiface USB.

Now back to the UCX...
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #71
Lives for gear
 
27 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT ➡️
Apples latest roadmap could be one factor, but to be honest I no idea what the status is with Apple Silicon and TB , but I would think the licensing would be the other way around, as in Intel approval for Apple, not Apple approval for Intel.

I don't think licensing is a issue. Apple have thunderbolt on the new Arm macs. But apple have "security" issues with vendors doing low level drivers. So the USB extensions vendors can do a running in a userspace security context. That wont work technically for TB. There is part of the USB stack that is in low level kernel context, but they are provided by apple. So all vendors use the same kernel driver, if you need something that is not standard you need to send it to userspace with the performance penalty that have. I dont think the audio streams goes that way, it is for controlling things like the TotalMix.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #72
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Collins ➡️
As I meantioned many times before on GS, I´m generally not a fan of the AKM 449x series converters (and I´ve owned and tested many of them), so take my verdict with a grain of salt .

I didn´t compare the Motu to the Adi-2 pro FS directly but to the Merging Anubis which uses the same ESS9026 dac and much preferred it over the Adi-2 Pro FS and Dac.

When I tested the new Ultralite, I was blown away by the quality of both the da-conversion and the hp-amp on a multichannel interface with such a price tag and it definitely reminded me of my Anubis, soundwise.
I couldn´t make a direct comparison - I sold the Anubis because of driver problems.

I compared it to my Mytek Brooklyn + , Topping DX-7 Pro, D-50s / A50s and 2 Soncoz dacs, all featuring higher level ESS-chips and it held its head up high and even won against some of them.

I only recorded synths with it so far and the AKM adc seems to do the job just fine. Most likely wouldn´t use it in my mastering-chain, though

The win10 asio driver works well and the performance is in the same ballpark as my Digiface USB.

Now back to the UCX...
Converters have no sound. Completely and entirely useless post and you make these a lot. Fanboying a DAC chip is honestly quite sad. Blocked
Old 2 weeks ago
  #73
Gear Guru
 
Jeezo's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Damn just saw that , problem with RME is that it s so reliable and great from day one that i can t find excuses to change my ucx for this one lol ..
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #74
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo ➡️
Damn just saw that , problem with RME is that it s so reliable and great from day one that i can t find excuses to change my ucx for this one lol ..


By the way Jeezo, why's your Avatar not showing properly?
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #75
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badmark's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo ➡️
Damn just saw that , problem with RME is that it s so reliable and great from day one that i can t find excuses to change my ucx for this one lol ..
The front-panel monitoring/features will make working with it live/standalone much better e.g. for troubleshooting.

My other first impression was slight disappointment that after having brought 2 more inputs round to the front they didn't make them preamps rather than just line inputs.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #76
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
i wish they kept the 2x midi i/o (or just make a 8 or 16 i/o midi interface only with their sub 1ms jitter)
the durec and the dc coupled outputs are also nice edition.

it's interesting people got used to being lied about converters and connections types so much that they complains about a company that don't do that. technically they are getting better but we long pass the point where it was relevant to our ears.

i still think it's understandable, all this advertising in the audio industry is so misleading you start to think that even the engineers that build the products believe in it. some of the biggest name in the bossiness of mixing/mastering have opinion what is the best converters without really making a correct blind a/b/x test.
critical thinking is not something we born with.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #77
Deleted 903526e
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by hacid ➡️
it's interesting people got used to being lied about converters and connections types so much that they complains about a company that don't do that. technically they are getting better but we long pass the point where it was relevant to our ears.

i still think it's understandable, all this advertising in the audio industry is so misleading you start to think that even the engineers that build the products believe in it. some of the biggest name in the bossiness of mixing/mastering have opinion what is the best converters without really making a correct blind a/b/x test.
critical thinking is not something we born with.
1. Most manufacturers don´t even mention the converter chips used.
Advertising lies are simply non-existent in this regard.
Even the snake-oil kings from BLA don´t bragg about their converters (for a reason) but about caps and clocking.

2. Maybe MEs (like me) can hear differences you can´t because both their monitoring and ears are a tiny bit better than those of artists and bedroom mixers.

3. If you can´t see, smell, taste or hear nuances other people can, doesn´t mean they don´t exist.

4. Critical thinking is exactly what this is about and I´ve done a/b testing in all varieties ad nauseam.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #78
Gear Guru
 
Jeezo's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune45 ➡️


By the way Jeezo, why's your Avatar not showing properly?
The matrix is showing itself ...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #79
What a beaut

Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #80
Gear Guru
 
Jeezo's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by badmark ➡️
The front-panel monitoring/features will make working with it live/standalone much better e.g. for troubleshooting.

My other first impression was slight disappointment that after having brought 2 more inputs round to the front they didn't make them preamps rather than just line inputs.
It was the original design ... i ain t tripping personnaly , giving the form factor ... it s snot aimed to have it all anyway .... sure it could be handy but since i m using the front mic preamp'very few ... (dedicated preamps here ) it never bothered me .
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #81
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Collins ➡️
1. Most manufacturers don´t even mention the converter chips used.
Advertising lies are simply non-existent in this regard.
Even the snake-oil kings from BLA don´t bragg about their converters (for a reason) but about caps and clocking.

2. Maybe MEs (like me) can hear differences you can´t because both their monitoring and ears are a tiny bit better than those of artists and bedroom mixers.

3. If you can´t see, smell, taste or hear nuances other people can, doesn´t mean they don´t exist.

4. Critical thinking is exactly what this is about and I´ve done a/b testing in all varieties ad nauseam.
1. the lie is not in the numbers, is in the practice. i did not talked about the chips only (you confuse me with Temps) and i did say technically they are getting "better" but only in numbers. we long pass the point where it was relevant to our ears"

2. maybe, if you blind tested it correctly...
it will be contradict to what scientifically proven countless of times (what is possible for human to hear), but maybe if you are a super human...

3. they are exist and measured but it doesn't means you or anyone can hear them. you can't hear the difference of dynamic, snr or jitter below -115 or -120db or -130db (i will argue you can't hear even -90db) it is just much much lower then your ear threshold.

4. i guess you didn't documented or publish your finding? so other can prove/disprove it, you needed to carefully measure the test is right and document every step so you can reexamining it and find faults in it/improve it. this is the essence of critical thinking.

btw, i was only trying to say @ Temps reaction about what you said was way too harsh
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #82
Deleted 903526e
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hacid ➡️
1. the lie is not in the numbers, is in the practice. i did not talked about the chips only (you confuse me with Temps) and i did say technically they are getting "better" but only in numbers. we long pass the point where it was relevant to our ears"


3. they are exist and measured but it doesn't means you or anyone can hear them. you can't hear the difference of dynamic, snr or jitter below -115 or -120db or -130db (i will argue you can't hear even -90db) it is just much much lower then your ear threshold.
That´s exactly what I was NOT talking about.

Thd and snr are extremely good on the AKM 449x series, often better than equivalent ESS models but that tells you nothing about how they sound.
I´m talking about what you CAN hear with decent monitoring in a treated room: a good phantom mid, bass impact, a realistic stereo-image, transients, depth, etc.
In my peak-time I´ve had 12 hi quality adcs, ad/das, dacs in my studio at the same time and guess what? They didn´t sound the same.

I´m not a preacher or something, I just share my findings and it´s up to you to make use of it or simply ignore it.
My post also was just an answer to a fellow gearslut (gearspacer sounds pretty ridiculous), no essay.

I always emphasize that these preferences are very subjective - I know colleagues who think exactly the opposite and prefer the high end and resolution of the 449x.

That´s enough off-topic for now, I guess

Peace
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #83
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Collins ➡️
That´s exactly what I was NOT talking about.

Thd and snr are extremely good on the AKM 449x series, often better than equivalent ESS models but that tells you nothing about how they sound.
I´m talking about what you CAN hear with decent monitoring in a treated room: a good phantom mid, bass impact, a realistic stereo-image, transients, depth, etc.
In my peak-time I´ve had 12 hi quality adcs, ad/das, dacs in my studio at the same time and guess what? They didn´t sound the same.

I´m not a preacher or something, I just share my findings and it´s up to you to make use of it or simply ignore it.
My post also was just an answer to a fellow gearslut (gearspacer sounds pretty ridiculous), no essay.

I always emphasize that these preferences are very subjective - I know colleagues who think exactly the opposite and prefer the high end and resolution of the 449x.

That´s enough off-topic for now, I guess

Peace
Top of the line industry standard Crane Song DACs in Avocet II & Solaris have AKM 4490 inside but with custom proprietary analog antialiasing filters (stock digital filters was bypassed). So it is different approach with the same chip.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #84
Deleted 903526e
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artech909 ➡️
Top of the line industry standard Crane Song DACs in Avocet II & Solaris have AKM 4490 inside but with custom proprietary analog antialiasing filters (stock digital filters was bypassed). So it is different approach with the same chip.
The Solaris is in fact the ONLY 449x I really like but all of this is not relevant for this thread
Old 2 weeks ago
  #85
Let's get some blind tests going, B.Collins. Put this matter to bed once and for all!

Old 2 weeks ago
  #86
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redloheb's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
1. RME on thunderbolt vs usb performance is inconsistent. It's wrong that TB is always better.



2. Not everybody understand log scale. 2db at 72db is great increase.

3. Gearspace is full of fetishists. Gearslutz were way better. I'm yet to hear convincing example that expensive DAC a is better than expenisve DAC b. And it's even worse with Pre.

4. I like MOTU and use m4 on daily basis but MOTU is not on par with RME in terms of support. RME is supporting FW interfaces like Fireface 400 and 800 on Apple M1, MOTU abandoned them.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #87
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Collins ➡️
That´s exactly what I was NOT talking about.

Thd and snr are extremely good on the AKM 449x series, often better than equivalent ESS models but that tells you nothing about how they sound.
I´m talking about what you CAN hear with decent monitoring in a treated room: a good phantom mid, bass impact, a realistic stereo-image, transients, depth, etc.
In my peak-time I´ve had 12 hi quality adcs, ad/das, dacs in my studio at the same time and guess what? They didn´t sound the same.

I´m not a preacher or something, I just share my findings and it´s up to you to make use of it or simply ignore it.
My post also was just an answer to a fellow gearslut (gearspacer sounds pretty ridiculous), no essay.

I always emphasize that these preferences are very subjective - I know colleagues who think exactly the opposite and prefer the high end and resolution of the 449x.

That´s enough off-topic for now, I guess

Peace
your "findings" are not really findings, it's more like subjective experience not based on objective testing. if you say you are "critical thinker" maybe you will be interesting to know there are at least two problems with your logic,

first, it seems you think they are other "audio properties" that you can hear but "cannot be measured". it's the other way around and been proved by null testing and other measures.

second, let's play the audiphile game and say there are audible differences in modern converters. if something sounds "better" to you, is it better?
our ears are not test equipment, high harmonic distortion can makes thing more pronounce (like subtle overdrive), reduced frequency range can sound "rounder" and "fuller" (like a very high freq low pass filter), high peeks in the high-end region can make the stereo image sound wider, lower dynamic range can make the low level details come out more and so on...
according to this logic (this is all nonsense off course) the most natural converter that make the "exact copy of the input/output" will be the dullest sounding.
maybe it's better to record on sound blasters
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #88
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by redloheb ➡️
1. RME on thunderbolt vs usb performance is inconsistent. It's wrong that TB is always better.



2. Not everybody understand log scale. 2db at 72db is great increase.

3. Gearspace is full of fetishists. Gearslutz were way better. I'm yet to hear convincing example that expensive DAC a is better than expenisve DAC b. And it's even worse with Pre.

4. I like MOTU and use m4 on daily basis but MOTU is not on par with RME in terms of support. RME is supporting FW interfaces like Fireface 400 and 800 on Apple M1, MOTU abandoned them.
why this test is on windows 7 with a computer from 2014 and very old cpu?
is it possible some drivers take advantage of new os capabilities and cpu instructions sets?
anyway this system is not comparable to almost anybody's system today.
I understand the value of compering new test to old ones but it's possible results will be different on a more modern machines.
worth checking out...
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #89
Deleted 903526e
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hacid ➡️
your "findings" are not really findings, it's more like subjective experience not based on objective testing. if you say you are "critical thinker" maybe you will be interesting to know there are at least two problems with your logic,

first, it seems you think they are other "audio properties" that you can hear but "cannot be measured". it's the other way around and been proved by null testing and other measures.

second, let's play the audiphile game and say there are audible differences in modern converters. if something sounds "better" to you, is it better?
our ears are not test equipment, high harmonic distortion can makes thing more pronounce (like subtle overdrive), reduced frequency range can sound "rounder" and "fuller" (like a very high freq low pass filter), high peeks in the high-end region can make the stereo image sound wider, lower dynamic range can make the low level details come out more and so on...
according to this logic (this is all nonsense off course) the most natural converter that make the "exact copy of the input/output" will be the dullest sounding.
maybe it's better to record on sound blasters
Ok, I deeply repent my heretic trials and tribulations and officially proclaim: it was all a lie!
The truth is, all modern converter chips sound the same and the earth is flat.

And I´m definitely out now.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #90
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by B.Collins ➡️
Ok, I deeply repent my heretic trials and tribulations and officially proclaim: it was all a lie!
The truth is, all modern converter chips sound the same and the earth is flat.

And I´m definitely out now.
if scientist were based their finding in the same manner you think converters should be tested (ignoring what doesn’t fit with their biases)
shore, we could conclude the earth is flat
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