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DiBiQuadro Domino - The new Harmonic Driver for N4/N4 Player [MacOS/Windows]
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #31
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiBiQuadro Audio ➡️
Hello MickeUppsala,

I can tell you how I proceed normally.

1) I get an idea of the kind of input source I want to process with Domino in terms of dynamics. it could be already a compressed source, or it could be still with a lot of dynamics.
In case there is still a lot of dynamics, I would activate the Limiter and keep the "LIMIT --> DRIVE" routing as it is.
Decrease the threshold enough to tame the peaks (2-3 dBs of gain reduction on peaks could be sufficient - check the meters).
Compensate the Gain Reduction with the makeup gain.

2) I choose the kind of distortion I would like to apply, by keeping in mind that:
- pure even harmonics (12, 124, 1246, 12468) always mean asymmetric distortion
- pure odd harmonics (13, 135, 1357, 13579) mean symmetric distortion
- a few number of harmonics is sufficient in most of the cases (12 or 13, 124 or 135).

3) I start increasing the DRIVE knob. how much depends on the volume of the input source. I rarely go above noon/13 o-clock (but it can happen), and, depending on the source, even at 9/10 o-clock could be enough and pretty evident.

4) I choose if I want to add harmonics to the low end of the spectrum or not. If I don't want, I increase the HDPF knob until I find the right hi pass-frequency for the harmonics I am adding.

5) at this point sometimes I would like to check again different types of distortion, so I switch among the different 'dice' ('domino') buttons, and I fine tune the DRIVE and the MAKEUP buttons.


...and that's pretty much it.


PS: I rarely touch the INTRIM knob, but when I do it I decrease it when I want to keep the distortion very subtle.
Many thanks!
Ps. Still I always enjoy some good presets to get me in a decent boll park.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #32
Gear Nut
 
ah ok I can see Domino being really useful, subtly blending in the 1 2 or 1 2 4 dice can make the audio source sound beautiful. I'm always throwing on a lot of odd harmonics trying to fatten things up but the even harmonics with Domino can naturally sheen things right up. Great sound, great plugin.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #33
Gear Maniac
 
DiBiQuadro Audio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MickeUppsala ➡️
Many thanks!
Ps. Still I always enjoy some good presets to get me in a decent boll park.
Unless you want to place Domino on every track (I would choose quite "calm" settings in this case - practically all at default values + the 'domino' button you like), in my opinion good settings for Domino are highly source dependent (at least regarding input volume/dynamics). Static presets won't work for sure, maybe AI presets could do the job... But these presets will be applied to 3rd party libs only when Acustica will give us some hints...
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #34
Gear Maniac
 
DiBiQuadro Audio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam A ➡️
ah ok I can see Domino being really useful, subtly blending in the 1 2 or 1 2 4 dice can make the audio source sound beautiful. I'm always throwing on a lot of odd harmonics trying to fatten things up but the even harmonics with Domino can naturally sheen things right up. Great sound, great plugin.
Thank you!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #35
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #36
Gear Maniac
 
DiBiQuadro Audio's Avatar
 
Quote:
There is another safety feature which has effect on the INTRIM knob and that can be activated in any N4 library. So no other plugin should be really required...

In any master xml in nebula4temprepository\Acquaplugins folder (you can check your Aquarius configuration settings / Installation tab / "N4 repository path" to know where your nebula4temprepository is located), and specifically for Domino in any of these files:

* DOMINO.xml
* DOMINOZL.xml
* DOMINOT.xml
* DOMINOTZL.xml

there is a tag called PROTECTIONDB (its default value is very high -> it means no protection), which specifies the output level of the library when the overload limit is reached. You can open any of these files with a text editor, and set the value you prefer (it could be set very low, like -200 dB).
Attached Thumbnails
DiBiQuadro Domino - The new Harmonic Driver for N4/N4 Player [MacOS/Windows]-protectiondb.png  
Old 2 weeks ago
  #37
Lives for gear
 
BigSmo's Avatar
 
Wow, this is more of a weapon than a plugin... I nearly blew my ears and monitors with the demo... There should be some kind of warning or built in protection.
I really rate the devs other tools but be very careful when using this one.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #38
Gear Nut
Does this sounds close to a culture vulture?
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #39
Gear Maniac
 
DiBiQuadro Audio's Avatar
 
Hello BigSmo

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSmo ➡️
There should be some kind of warning
There is some kind of warning: check "CAUTION" in the GUI. Not only: this is explained also in the manual which we always recommend to read before using our products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSmo ➡️
or built in protection.
You can check my previous post. We asked Acustica if we could add this update to the release. In the meantime that hint is still valid.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #40
Lives for gear
 
BigSmo's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiBiQuadro Audio ➡️
Hello BigSmo


There is some kind of warning: check "CAUTION" in the GUI. Not only: this is explained also in the manual which we always recommend to read before using our products.



You can check my previous post. We asked Acustica if we could add this update to the release. In the meantime that hint is still valid.
It would be good if AA implement that.

I didn’t read the manual, I didn’t even put my seatbelt on...
I’ll read the manual, then take it for another spin.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #41
Gear Maniac
 
DiBiQuadro Audio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6ixcore ➡️
Does this sounds close to a culture vulture?
Quite hard to say on our side, since we have never owned one. Maybe other users can give their opinions about that.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #42
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
So this is sampled from different hardware units?
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #43
Gear Maniac
 
DiBiQuadro Audio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GusGranite ➡️
So this is sampled from different hardware units?
Hello GusGranite,

the short answer is: no, it is not.

..and to avoid any misunderstanding: no, it is not even sampled from different (other) software.

We got some experience about how to sample hardware units (Bronze, Copper, Brass, Virgo and PwrCabs are all from real hardware). We are aware also of the expected results, and of the issues that must be faced and solved (phase buildups, echo bug...). All this experience helped to realize Domino, that's for sure.

Domino has been obtained by feeding Acustica NAT and Nebula in the "right" way, with the "right" input, to get the results we wanted. This input has been built "harmonic by harmonic".

BTW, Domino has no echo bug at all (no need to minimize it. The EDM Kicks here https://dibiquadroaudio.com/domino/ are already a good proof).
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #44
Lives for gear
 
LASTLAVGH's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiBiQuadro Audio ➡️
Hello GusGranite,

the short answer is: no, it is not.

..and to avoid any misunderstanding: no, it is not even sampled from different (other) software.

We got some experience about how to sample hardware units (Bronze, Copper, Brass, Virgo and PwrCabs are all from real hardware). We are aware also of the expected results, and of the issues that must be faced and solved (phase buildups, echo bug...). All this experience helped to realize Domino, that's for sure.

Domino has been obtained by feeding Acustica NAT and Nebula in the "right" way, with the "right" input, to get the results we wanted. This input has been built "harmonic by harmonic".

BTW, Domino has no echo bug at all (no need to minimize it. The EDM Kicks here https://dibiquadroaudio.com/domino/ are already a good proof).
Interesting. Is there any inherent benefit by achieving this through Nebula instead of an algorithmic route?
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #45
Gear Maniac
 
DiBiQuadro Audio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LASTLAVGH ➡️
Interesting. Is there any inherent benefit by achieving this through Nebula instead of an algorithmic route?
I don't have a short and definitve answer for this question... I think different approaches have their pros and cons, or they simply can/cannot get a particular result. Anyway my opinion about this topic is not biased at all - As you may know, we have plugins based on circuit simulation in our "catalog", and we think it's an AMAZING way to model reality.

Let's start: what do you mean with "algorithmic"?

Even if we restrict the scope to "distortion", "algorithmic" is a huge world. For example, what we achieve with DiBiQuadro SaturnLO and MercuryRec (heavy distortion / saturation) cannot be achieved with non-linear convolution. On the other side, non-linear convolution can give results that cannot be achieved with circuit simulations, as far as I know (think about pure even harmonics...). From a developer's point of view: once you know the mechanism, you can get results from non-linear convolution without writing code, and in some cases (Domino) even without sampling (by giving a sort of "behavioral" description).

So we have to restrict the scope to the only "algorithmic" plugin I'm aware of (at the moment) that can do something similar to Domino, named in this post, which (as I read from their website) is based on Chebyshev polynomials.

I can give you my opinion from a user's perspective: it's a very nice and interesting plugin with (unfortunately, IMHO) a lot unexpressed potential, mainly because of its usability (missing general input/output levels, sometimes it's not easy to "drive"), but also because of technical limitations - "slow" LPF (maybe added to tame aliasing, but not sure) which affects the upper part of the audible spectrum (to remove this I would have to use it at 192KHz at least), phase goes to zero on the nyquist limit.

A steeper minimum phase LPF would have given more post-ringing artifacts on the high frequencies. If the LPF was linear phase, we would have had more latency, no phase distortion, less post-ringing but a bit of pre-ringing artifacts on the high frequencies.

Common "algorithmic" distortion plugins use oversampling to reduce aliasing and to improve the phase response, but they need to use up/downsampling filters (LPFs) with the side effects described just above - these can be reduced a lot by increasing the working sample rate (let's say 88.2/96KHz) and by reducing the steepness of the LPFs (without affecting the audbile frequencies - this is something possible in SaturnLO and MercuryRec, for example).

On the other side Nebula uses FIR filters. It means that it is able to represent the phase in the right way even at frequencies near to the nyquist limit. There is not a real solution for aliasing, but the amount of distortion which can be generated here is enough to represent most of the pro-audio equipment, and not enough to generate real issues with aliasing. However, to get the right phase response of the sampled hardware (in particular, to avoid phase buildups) we normally need to apply some tricks... It's not easy.


As you can see, it's a very long topic, and in the end there is no clear winner, in my opinion. The idea is to take the best for each particular need, and not to be afraid of mixing different solutions for different problems.
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #46
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MickeUppsala ➡️
Bought it but I have no idea to run it without any presets!
The 7th harmonic is regarded as pure dissonance. It's basically an out of tune minor 7th from the root frequency. So... it almost certainly works out better if you can actually cut some 7th harmonic instead of boost. IDK if the intention of this plug is to also have that feature.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #47
Gear Maniac
 
DiBiQuadro Audio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by traumerei1838 ➡️
The 7th harmonic is regarded as pure dissonance. It's basically an out of tune minor 7th from the root frequency. So... it almost certainly works out better if you can actually cut some 7th harmonic instead of boost. IDK if the intention of this plug is to also have that feature.
You are probably referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music) and in particular to (image attached). As reported in this link, different harmonics define the timbre of a real (or not) musical instruments, which in general is not made only of the fundamental harmonic (all instruments would sound like a single sine-wave synth), and in general not even of harmonics "in tune" or coherent with the tonality you are playing (third minor or major?).

In any case, nothing prevents you to think about this and to choose the 'domino' button accordingly (2/3 of the buttons do not include the 7th harmonic btw...). With "pure even harmonics" buttons you cannot make any "tuning" mistake - just beware: it's asymmetric distortion.

Domino acts on the timbre and it's quite evident on some instruments (kicks and synths for example, but not only).
Attached Thumbnails
DiBiQuadro Domino - The new Harmonic Driver for N4/N4 Player [MacOS/Windows]-harmonicsseriesmusic.jpg  
Old 1 week ago
  #48
Gear Maniac
 
DiBiQuadro Audio's Avatar
 
Here some quick tests of Domino on a few audio samples. The purpose of this video is to show the potentialities of this library, not necessarily to find the best settings for this audio material.

Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #49
Gear Head
 
Demo'ing this right now on the masterbus of a live recording and quite liking the results but the shadows on the knobs are making it difficult to tell if knob position changes. Especially at the 12 o'clock position where the shadows overlap and become darker. Any chance you'd consider removing the shadows altogether?? I suppose if the numeric values of the knob position were displayed when you mouse over a knob that would alleviate the shadows masking knob movement. I do find the shadows distracting, however.
Old 1 week ago
  #50
Gear Maniac
 
DiBiQuadro Audio's Avatar
 
Domino / Domino Trial: updates

New versions of Domino / Domino Trial are available on Aquarius (Thanks again Francesco ).

They include the update described in this post, proctecting from volume spikes when pushing the INTRIM knob too much.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #51
Gear Maniac
 
DiBiQuadro Audio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sieq ➡️
Any chance you'd consider removing the shadows altogether?? I suppose if the numeric values of the knob position were displayed when you mouse over a knob that would alleviate the shadows masking knob movement. I do find the shadows distracting, however.
We discussed internally about it quite at the beginning of the GUI definition, but we decided it was acceptable because the shadow was drawing a sort of small triangle exactly at noon on each knob, it didn't cover any other mark around the knobs, and because we thought the marks around the knobs were giving enough precision.
About this point we can update the manual in the next days to give more details about excursion and precision.

- THRESHOLD: from 0dB to -12dB. 13 marks: each mark = +-1dB. 10 knob steps between 2 marks (1 knob step: ~0.1dB).
- MAKEUP: from 0dB to 12dB. 13 marks: each mark = +-1dB. 10 knob steps between 2 marks (1 knob step: ~0.1dB).
- MIX: from 100% to 0%. 11 marks: each mark = +-10%. 10 knob steps between 2 marks (1 knob step: ~1%).
- INTRIM: very high excursion to give the possibility to have very subtle harmonics distortion when set to minimum. No marks.
- DHPF: from no low cut on harmonics to around 10kHz. Each position doubles the cut frequency.
- DRIVE: very high excursion (60dB - it affects the harmonics only). 13 marks: each mark = +-5dB. 10 knob steps between 2 marks (1 knob step: ~0.5dB).
- OUTPUT: from -18dB to +18dB. 13 marks: each mark = +-3dB. 10 knob steps between 2 marks (1 knob step: ~0.3dB).

It's possibile to use SHIFT+mousewheel to get finer settings.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #52
Gear Addict
 
Mastering7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiBiQuadro Audio ➡️
We discussed internally about it quite at the beginning of the GUI definition, but we decided it was acceptable because the shadow was drawing a sort of small triangle exactly at noon on each knob, it didn't cover any other mark around the knobs, and because we thought the marks around the knobs were giving enough precision.
About this point we can update the manual in the next days to give more details about excursion and precision.

- THRESHOLD: from 0dB to -12dB. 13 marks: each mark = +-1dB. 10 knob steps between 2 marks (1 knob step: ~0.1dB).
- MAKEUP: from 0dB to 12dB. 13 marks: each mark = +-1dB. 10 knob steps between 2 marks (1 knob step: ~0.1dB).
- MIX: from 100% to 0%. 11 marks: each mark = +-10%. 10 knob steps between 2 marks (1 knob step: ~1%).
- INTRIM: very high excursion to give the possibility to have very subtle harmonics distortion when set to minimum. No marks.
- DHPF: from no low cut on harmonics to around 10kHz. Each position doubles the cut frequency.
- DRIVE: very high excursion (60dB - it affects the harmonics only). 13 marks: each mark = +-5dB. 10 knob steps between 2 marks (1 knob step: ~0.5dB).
- OUTPUT: from -18dB to +18dB. 13 marks: each mark = +-3dB. 10 knob steps between 2 marks (1 knob step: ~0.3dB).

It's possibile to use SHIFT+mousewheel to get finer settings.
Thank you for the plugin! Domino is ​sophisticated and very useful on the mix bus just like butter on bread.
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #53
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiBiQuadro Audio ➡️
New versions of Domino / Domino Trial are available on Aquarius (Thanks again Francesco ).

They include the update described in this post, proctecting from volume spikes when pushing the INTRIM knob too much.
Thanks for the update, I am still trialing. Is it possible, that with this update the behaviour regarding transients and dynamics changed when Domino is driven hot?

I have Domino on a master bus chain. The drive setting is around 90° to the right (or 3 hrs, if you will). The limiter is on as you recommended, the high pass filter is around 11, Input trim is at default setting. The harmonics are set to full (setting in the very lower right). (It is obviously a very destroyed signal, so I set up a chain to blend this "destroyed" signal into the original with -20db.)

Before the update the sound was very dynamic still, it almost sounded like a heavy saturated mix going through a transient enhancer and a gate at the same time and I really liked it because no other plugin so far could produce this.

Now after the update the whole dynamics and transients are gone. The sound is very mushy, sometimes when there should be transients it sounds like the plugin stops processing or muting the output or something like this. The whole "percussive tonal balance" I got with the earlier version is now very different. When I lower the Input Trim, the transients start to appear again but then the harmonics start to disappear gradually.

Is this because of the new "safety measure"?
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #54
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiBiQuadro Audio ➡️
Hello Sebatan,

The INTRIM knob is supposed to stay "at noon", and it should not be pushed above, unless your input signal is very low. We use to report a sign called "Caution" for this reason in all our UI of our N4 libraries, and we use to report to be carefull and how to use this knob in the manual.

In particular, Domino is not a saturator - we called it "Harmonic Driver" to underline that the purpose is to increase the harmonics, not to clip or tame the input signal with some distortion - so the INTRIM is not supposed to be pushed (we have other plugins - specifically for guitar that can do that - the input can be pushed really hard without side effects on these ones).

We suggest to start with DRIVE in default position (which is at minimum) and then to increase it slowly.

To make an example, it's like buying a Marshall Plexi, leave its volumes at 10 the day before, and switching it on the day after: the explosion is guaranteed... Or simply forgetting to connect a guitar tube poweramp to a load: the barbeque is guaranteed too... Handling it with care is the key.

PS: recent N4 libs and Acqua plugins use a special clipping stage to prevent users from having side effects with the intrim. We decided not to introduce this "safety" feature (at least this is how I intended it) because it is not how the harmonics should be generated with this library. The risk would have been to "pollute" the different kinds of harmonic distortion (the ones you can choose by pressing any of the "domino buttons") with a fixed kind of clipping. Keeping the INTRIM at its default position and handling the DRIVE knob with care is by far the cleanest solution.
So I´ve thought a bit about this and the thing I still don´t get with the behaviour of the plugin is the following:

With other plugins, the input trim usually works the same way when increasing or decreasing the volume. When I decrease the volume, it slowly gets quieter and the signal isn´t driven so hard anymore. Ok. But by increasing the volume with Dominos Input knob the signal immediately gets totally destroyed and s*****.

In this case I would expect the plugin to behave like if I would increase the processing by pushing the drive knob. At least that´s how other plugins work - like, there´s kind of a "set" relationship between input and drive. With Domino, this doesn´t apply and I don´t understand why it is not the same. I still believe that it would be way easier to handle if this was like the "usual" behaviour.

Is it understandable what I´m trying to explain? English is not my first language
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #55
Gear Maniac
 
DiBiQuadro Audio's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebatan ➡️
So I´ve thought a bit about this and the thing I still don´t get with the behaviour of the plugin is the following:

With other plugins, the input trim usually works the same way when increasing or decreasing the volume. When I decrease the volume, it slowly gets quieter and the signal isn´t driven so hard anymore. Ok. But by increasing the volume with Dominos Input knob the signal immediately gets totally destroyed and s*****.

In this case I would expect the plugin to behave like if I would increase the processing by pushing the drive knob. At least that´s how other plugins work - like, there´s kind of a "set" relationship between input and drive. With Domino, this doesn´t apply and I don´t understand why it is not the same. I still believe that it would be way easier to handle if this was like the "usual" behaviour.

Is it understandable what I´m trying to explain? English is not my first language
Hello Sebatan,

The last 2 updates I described here and here are reversibile and do not change the sound of Domino at all, unless you are switching the "domino" buttons (temporary volume drop during switching) or overloading the InTrim intentionally - which is not the way Domino should be used.

Reversibile means you can tweak them at anytime, choose the values you prefer for those lines, or remove those lines completely. You would just need to find those xml files, modify them with a text editor, and restart N4(or N4Player)/Domino. Alternatively you could downgrade Domino on Aquarius.

Domino is not a "saturator" (this word is not even present in the product page and neither in the manual), it is an Harmonic Driver. The InTrim should be set high enough to generate harmonic distortion (normally at noon it does the job; you can even try to raise it if the input signal has very low volume), but it is not supposed to be pushed; if you do it, the "mute" will be engaged (tag PROTECTIONDB). The DRIVE knob is there to raise the harmonics.
Old 3 hours ago
  #56
Gear Maniac
 
DiBiQuadro Audio's Avatar
 
Domino / Domino Trial: updates

New updated versions of Domino (Commercial / Trial) are available on Aquarius.

These versions fix a bug on the DHPF knob (position 7 and 8 were the same - now not anymore) and extend the hi-pass filter on the harmonics up to 12KHz (last knob position).

A new version of the manual is available here.

Cheers
Old 1 hour ago
  #57
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Bought it, I love this thing! Great processor
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