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FabFilter releases Timeless 3
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #151
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot ➡️
The interface definitely has some issues. It has tiny icons and text that don't get bigger when you increase the size of the GUI, and they have very low contrast text colors in relation to the background. To me the note icon looks more like a fried chicken leg than a note, and that's because it's so small. If you have a super bright monitor, great vision, or just prefer dark GUIs, then it's probably not a big deal. If your monitor isn't so bright, your eyes aren't perfect, etc., you may find some of the elements of the GUI difficult to work with.

Do I think it makes it unusable? Of course not. Do I think Fabfilter took a bit of step backwards with this one from GUI perspective? Yep. And they're a company that's kind of made a name for great interfaces [versus having the absolute best sounding plugins], so these little usability things should matter. Interfaces are kind of their thing.

And whether you think it's perfect doesn't mean that others don't have problems with it and vice versa. I can work with this GUI, but I think it could be better.
Thanks. I agree 100%! The knob rings are also a little problematic in terms of visibility, contrast, and targeting, but that issue would largely go away if the controls got larger with everything else.

Sorry I was a "bit slow" in response to the thread.... heh.

And, just to be clear: I did buy it despite the minor usability issues.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #152
plx
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by javahut ➡️
Not only that, but smaller high resolution monitors also make the GUI's small controls and text more of an issue and much less desirable to work with.
I have a 21.5" 4k 220ppi screen and it's fine...
Text is as big as anything else really.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot ➡️
The interface definitely has some issues. It has tiny icons and text that don't get bigger when you increase the size of the GUI, and they have very low contrast text colors in relation to the background. To me the note icon looks more like a fried chicken leg than a note, and that's because it's so small. If you have a super bright monitor, great vision, or just prefer dark GUIs, then it's probably not a big deal. If your monitor isn't so bright, your eyes aren't perfect, etc., you may find some of the elements of the GUI difficult to work with.

Do I think it makes it unusable? Of course not. Do I think Fabfilter took a bit of step backwards with this one from GUI perspective? Yep. And they're a company that's kind of made a name for great interfaces [versus having the absolute best sounding plugins], so these little usability things should matter. Interfaces are kind of their thing.

And whether you think it's perfect doesn't mean that others don't have problems with it and vice versa. I can work with this GUI, but I think it could be better.
I'm not sure which icons are problematic, they're nearly the same size as logic's icons here, note looks like a note as well.
I have **** vision (minus 2 (or + i forgot)). My screen is 500 nits, i do like dark interfaces tho.
Dark small text lights up when you want to click it - but it's so obvious what it should be there (0 - 100%) that i prefer it's dark. I don't want obvious control marks standing out, because it just makes everything look cluttered and harder to navigate.

I find Timeless3 interface miles ahead of Timeless2 - timeless2 was cluttered, contrast was **** - i didnt care for readability of text because it didn't make sense anyway.

Maybe the interface just doesn't translate well to lowDPI screens. It's happening a lot lately. It's annoying because you basically need to design two interfaces - one for HiDPI one for LowDPI screens.
Attached Thumbnails
FabFilter releases Timeless 3-screenshot-2021-06-10-18.19.51.png   FabFilter releases Timeless 3-screenshot-2021-06-10-18.20.29.png  
Old 1 week ago
  #153
plx
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
also - looks nearly identical to ProQ3 in terms of text and icon size, contrast, and stuff like that.
And Pro-Q2/3 has had the same style interface for years.
Attached Thumbnails
FabFilter releases Timeless 3-screenshot-2021-06-10-18.30.09.jpg  
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #154
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by plx ➡️
I have a 21.5" 4k 220ppi screen and it's fine...
Text is as big as anything else really.




I'm not sure which icons are problematic, they're nearly the same size as logic's icons here, note looks like a note as well.
I have **** vision (minus 2 (or + i forgot)). My screen is 500 nits, i do like dark interfaces tho.
Dark small text lights up when you want to click it - but it's so obvious what it should be there (0 - 100%) that i prefer it's dark. I don't want obvious control marks standing out, because it just makes everything look cluttered and harder to navigate.

I find Timeless3 interface miles ahead of Timeless2 - timeless2 was cluttered, contrast was **** - i didnt care for readability of text because it didn't make sense anyway.

Maybe the interface just doesn't translate well to lowDPI screens. It's happening a lot lately. It's annoying because you basically need to design two interfaces - one for HiDPI one for LowDPI screens.
Designing for multiple resolutions has been a thing for a VERY long time now. Designing for multiple devices has even been a thing for a long time. I've been doing both for 20+ years (yes, I was doing mobile UX design starting in the late 90s). Fabfilter simply took a small step backward rather than forward.

It's easy to see the difference in the usability between the two images you posted. Why? "Buttonization" (things have a box), iconography, and contrast. If Fabfilter upped the contrast a few % and made the controls resize with everything else - like pretty much every other company - these minor issues would go away. And, yes, they have other plugins with UI issues, too.

And, yes, T3 > T2 in usability. But not an overall score of 10/10. Saying something isn't perfect isn't a huge criticism or somehow that it's awful and no one should use it. T3 is a fantastic delay everyone should at least demo.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #155
plx
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by vitocorleone123 ➡️
Designing for multiple resolutions has been a thing for a VERY long time now. Designing for multiple devices has even been a thing for a long time. I've been doing both for 20+ years (yes, I was doing mobile UX design starting in the late 90s). Fabfilter simply took a small step backward rather than forward.

It's easy to see the difference in the usability between the two images you posted. Why? "Buttonization" (things have a box), iconography, and contrast.

And, yes, T3 > T2 in usability. But not a 10/10.
i dont need a box around the "power" icon inside the button, the whole knob lights up orange if it's on. The whole knob is a "button" in that manner. Its coloured if it's on, its grey and contrast-less if it's off.
I'm generally pretty pissy about UI, but Timeless3 UI doesn't really bother me in any way.

I did try throwing everything into LowDPI, but everything looks like garbage (but Apple also designs logic primarily for HiDPI since a few versions ago and Big Sur as a whole looks weird on LowDPI screens) and i agree - timeless3 text becomes a blotch on the screen and it's not as similar to ProQ3 as it is at highDPI.

Which plugin UI do you think is a 10/10 GUI wise? (I'm not trying to be a smart - ass, i'm just curious)
Attached Thumbnails
FabFilter releases Timeless 3-screenshot-2021-06-10-18.45.23.png  
Old 1 week ago
  #156
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I totally agree about the UI issues and have brought this up during beta. Unfortunately they are a bit stubborn when it comes to UI design and want to keep their latest "modern" aesthetic.

I too suffer from poor eye sight so this is definitely a contributing factor for my own criticism of the plugin. But yeah, you can even see in many different youtube videos how people miss the smaller circular knobs and simply have a hard time hitting the targets with the mouse. This alone should be a red flag from an UI design perspective in terms of usability. It's especially true if you are stuck with a laptop with a less than stellar track pad.
Old 1 week ago
  #157
plx
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
can someone point me to a 10/10 plugin?
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #158
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by plx ➡️
can someone point me to a 10/10 plugin?
https://youtu.be/Uy34pS5EeJM
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #159
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by plx ➡️
can someone point me to a 10/10 plugin?
Perfection doesn't exist - one can strive for it but one can never achieve it. It's the striving for it which makes us create our best selves.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #160
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by plx ➡️
can someone point me to a 10/10 plugin?
No.

ProQ3 is probably about as good overall as I’ve seen and used. But I haven’t tried every plugin, of course. But ProQ3 is definitely not perfect - the UI has a few issues (resizing) and it’s possible the sound isn’t quite as good as Crave EQ (I’ve never compared), etc.

Timeless3 and Saturn2 are not - at least in terms of the UX - as good as ProQ3.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #161
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune45 ➡️
Perfection doesn't exist - one can strive for it but one can never achieve it. It's the striving for it which makes us create our best selves.
don't know about that dogma. just finished watching Sia gig, she's pretty much perfect. no one lights a candle to her. all singers are terrified of voice cracks, she owns the voice crack and tells stories with it. she's Da Boss.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #162
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneakymoon ➡️
she's pretty much perfect
You just put forward and then lost your own argument in the same paragraph.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #163
Lives for gear
 
21 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
What would make a 10/10 out of plugin? I don't think it means "it's perfect can never be improved upon." Nothing is. But what I'm thinking are things like:

1. Great sound.

2. Great GUI.

3. Great workflow.

4. Great additional features. (preset browser, modulation capabilities, macro controls, great oversampling implementation, render at high quality option, etc.)

5. Great presets.

6. Non-obtrusive copy protection.

7. Cross-platform, supports modern formats (M1 and non-M1 Macs, VST, AU, AAX).

8. Great price for what you're getting.

Can someone reasonably think Timeless 3 is 10/10 based on that criteria? That would not be my score (probably 8/10), but it's all subjective. We all get to have opinions.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #164
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot ➡️
What would make a 10/10 out of plugin? I don't think it means "it's perfect can never be improved upon." Nothing is. But what I'm thinking are things like:

1. Great sound.

2. Great GUI.

3. Great workflow.

4. Great additional features. (preset browser, modulation capabilities, macro controls, great oversampling implementation, render at high quality option, etc.)

5. Great presets.

6. Non-obtrusive copy protection.

7. Cross-platform, supports modern formats (M1 and non-M1 Macs, VST, AU, AAX).

8. Great price for what you're getting.

Can someone reasonably think Timeless 3 is 10/10 based on that criteria? That would not be my score (probably 8/10), but it's all subjective. We all get to have opinions.
If I was a reviewer at a major outlet for plugin reviews my criteria would be a competitive comparison (not a list of features / functions I like). Consider that there are undoubtedly 100's of delays on the market right now from different developers. If one of those delays was in my opinion the best choice out of all those options then YEAH I'd give it a 10/10. I haven't tried Timeless 3 yet (although it's only a matter of time as I own all the FF plugins), but right now the only delay I would consider giving a 10/10 is Vahalla Delay. The reason I'd do that is not because of one feature or another, it's because it would be the first thing out of my mouth if a producer asked me what delay they should buy if they only could have one delay plugin.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #165
Gear Maniac
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune45 ➡️
You just put forward and then lost your own argument in the same paragraph.
I'm not a native speaker, yet I made a point and you got the meaning of it very well, but prefer to argue over semantics.

OK, I'll put it in simpler terms for you. "Sia is perfect". I hope you get it now.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #166
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneakymoon ➡️
I'm not a native speaker, yet I made a point and you got the meaning of it very well, but prefer to argue over semantics.

OK, I'll put it in simpler terms for you. "Sia is perfect". I hope you get it now.
For a non-native speaker you are more eloquent than most English people I know utilising words such as semantics.

Gotta love your passion for Sia so I'll let you have that one.
Old 1 week ago
  #167
Lives for gear
 
Fleer's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Evidently, 10/10 in a man-made world doesn’t mean perfection. It means excellence.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #168
Gear Nut
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by motomotomoto ➡️
If I was a reviewer at a major outlet for plugin reviews my criteria would be a competitive comparison (not a list of features / functions I like). Consider that there are undoubtedly 100's of delays on the market right now from different developers. If one of those delays was in my opinion the best choice out of all those options then YEAH I'd give it a 10/10. I haven't tried Timeless 3 yet (although it's only a matter of time as I own all the FF plugins), but right now the only delay I would consider giving a 10/10 is Vahalla Delay. The reason I'd do that is not because of one feature or another, it's because it would be the first thing out of my mouth if a producer asked me what delay they should buy if they only could have one delay plugin.
Valhalla delay is not good. The most important part of any delay plugin - timing selection - requires using tiny pull-down menus (any plugin with pull down menus gets instantly struck down by me, I can't stand that dumb sh...). It could've at least implemented a mouse scroll selection for dotted/timed/ms. I never use plugins with pull down menus (hello Echoboy)

But for some reasons developers are oftentimes stuck up on their own (oftentimes very dumb) ideas on how things should be and won't budge. They prioritize graphics over usability and completely unresponsive to feedback.

They need to redesign T3 from scratch. Like, scrape ALL OF IT, and just start from the beginning. Create a new design language for it or something. Because as it is, none of it works, none. Stupid wheel inside wheel and weirdly scattered microscopic menus and selections requiring you to have eagle eye and sniper hand precision, idiotic incomprehensible (and oh so tiny) alien spaceship cryptographics and oceans of empty spaces in between. I can find my way around commercial airplane cockpit faster than this delay.

This plugin is a textbook example on how NOT to design your GUI. I'm trying to think of a plugin that has worse GUI but can't think of anything right now.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #169
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleer ➡️
Evidently, 10/10 in a man-made world doesn’t mean perfection. It means excellence.
I didn't realise man made the World. Where did they live when they were making it?

Just messing around
Old 1 week ago
  #170
Lives for gear
 
Fleer's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
A world in a world, as the bard would put it
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #171
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by anon ➡️
It appears you are one of those people that attacks others for their opinion, please don't be like that. It is after all a fact that if you are going to have a sizeable UI that doesn't in anyway size up the text and knobs which are the main bits that you interact with then it's definitely not a perfect UI is it? so his point is valid and welcomed by me because maybe FabFilter will listen and improve it, Other than the UI strangeness I think it's the best Delay plugin I have ever used.
You attacked me for my opinion, please don’t be like that. What are you, 4 years old??
Old 1 week ago
  #172
Gear Head
 
Just hover over the parameter you want to change, and use your scroll wheel, dang it if you can’ t manage that...
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #173
plx
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by acctx ➡️
Valhalla delay is not good. The most important part of any delay plugin - timing selection - requires using tiny pull-down menus (any plugin with pull down menus gets instantly struck down by me, I can't stand that dumb sh...). It could've at least implemented a mouse scroll selection for dotted/timed/ms. I never use plugins with pull down menus (hello Echoboy)

But for some reasons developers are oftentimes stuck up on their own (oftentimes very dumb) ideas on how things should be and won't budge. They prioritize graphics over usability and completely unresponsive to feedback.

They need to redesign T3 from scratch. Like, scrape ALL OF IT, and just start from the beginning. Create a new design language for it or something. Because as it is, none of it works, none. Stupid wheel inside wheel and weirdly scattered microscopic menus and selections requiring you to have eagle eye and sniper hand precision, idiotic incomprehensible (and oh so tiny) alien spaceship cryptographics and oceans of empty spaces in between. I can find my way around commercial airplane cockpit faster than this delay.

This plugin is a textbook example on how NOT to design your GUI. I'm trying to think of a plugin that has worse GUI but can't think of anything right now.
likethis, eh?
Attached Thumbnails
FabFilter releases Timeless 3-screenshot-2021-06-12-12.59.59.png  
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #174
Gear Nut
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by plx ➡️
likethis, eh?
That looks like the best way to do it, just like HDelay which is why it's 'my' most used delay. I don't know why anyone in sane mind feels the need to complicate this simple and logical one-step process into idiotic pull-down menus. I mean, it's just so damn simple, it really can't get any simpler than this.

The sheer idiocy of what VD and EB delays do, is basically like having Reverb time wheel to select whole seconds but then do 0.1-0.9 increments via pull-down menu. It's pretty much the same thing. And yet they went that way.

There are numerous ways to do it right - click on something to sequentially change it or mouse scroll or simply twist a knob, pull a slider, but tiny pull down menus is literally the goddamn stupidest way to do it.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #175
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by acctx ➡️
That looks like the best way to do it, just like HDelay which is why it's 'my' most used delay. I don't know why anyone in sane mind feels the need to complicate this simple and logical one-step process into idiotic pull-down menus. I mean, it's just so damn simple, it really can't get any simpler than this.

The sheer idiocy of what VD and EB delays do, is basically like having Reverb time wheel to select whole seconds but then do 0.1-0.9 increments via pull-down menu. It's pretty much the same thing. And yet they went that way.

There are numerous ways to do it right - click on something to sequentially change it or mouse scroll or simply twist a knob, pull a slider, but tiny pull down menus is literally the goddamn stupidest way to do it.
Half disagree. Fully disagree that it’s idiotic. The only drop down of minor annoyance in Valhalla Delay is the sync or not. I’d prefer a toggle between time in ms and sync timing. The time mode has a wide range of ms. The sync mode would then have a wide range with whole, dotted, and triplet on the same range. This would make it easier to use on paper, so to speak, but perhaps too crowded in practice (this the further division of whole, dotted, and triplet) - would have to see it. Side note: my delay pedal only has a few modes and it’s not simple to change to dotted notes, for example, vs just using ms.

I also find the Valhalla UI easier to use than Fabfilter drop downs, for example. Overall a very easy UI to learn and use. Definitely an easy choice overall compared to Waves for me.

At any rate, the topic is Timeless3, not Valhalla or Echoboy or Waves.
Old 5 days ago
  #176
plx
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Yeah IMO waves is just crap design.
I like logic's native approach because it allows you to super easily automate from tempo sync to free-running, and i don't find setting different values hard at all.
Having a handy ms readout while temposynced is also pretty clever. all in all, i find the the Tape Delay in logic is the "least clicks" approach to solving this issue.

But the dropdowns to aren't really buggering me despite that
Old 4 days ago
  #177
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Mister Stockhausen, I so badly want your presets for this wonderful plugin.
Old 3 days ago
  #178
Gear Maniac
 
First Fabfilter plugin I didn't buy specifically because of the GUI. I sounds good but I just can't use it.
Old 3 days ago | Show parent
  #179
Lives for gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_mixer ➡️
First Fabfilter plugin I didn't buy specifically because of the GUI. I sounds good but I just can't use it.
I have the last iteration (Timeless 2) in the Total Bundle and I would agree with the GUI on that one but even with its downsides I find this one (Timeless 3) to be a HUGE step up from T2.

Maybe they'll get you with an update or if not Timeless 4.
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