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Acustica intros Snow: contemporary British-style suite for the modern producer
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #181
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie.T ➡️
It stutter expecially at the beginning while exporting, and the exported audio will stutter too at the beginning
I’m not getting this behaviour. However, after 20 minutes or so everything becomes very sluggish, pretty much unusable, and have to quit both the AG server and plug in.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #182
Lives for gear
 
dasoundjunkie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I regret to inform that my experiment with Audio Gridder while promising at the beginning has ended in failure.
After a certain number of instances (that according to both pro tools and audio gridder where consuming 5% and 11% respectively) there is a catastrophic crash with the PT meter slammed at 100% and the session rendered useless and unplayable even if I removed the AG instances.

I tried with server on an external computer and the main studio tower. Also tried the new betas but those wouldn't even load in PT

Guess we'll go back to freezing stuff, the sound is worth the patience required to work like this. Would have been nice though...
Old 2 weeks ago | Show parent
  #183
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasoundjunkie ➡️
I regret to inform that my experiment with Audio Gridder while promising at the beginning has ended in failure.
After a certain number of instances (that according to both pro tools and audio gridder where consuming 5% and 11% respectively) there is a catastrophic crash with the PT meter slammed at 100% and the session rendered useless and unplayable even if I removed the AG instances.

I tried with server on an external computer and the main studio tower. Also tried the new betas but those wouldn't even load in PT

Guess we'll go back to freezing stuff, the sound is worth the patience required to work like this. Would have been nice though...
I've made some more deeper testing too with client/server on the same pc.
What i've understood, you will see your cpu to be used less with audiogridder till you start to have overruns, then it will bump at 100%.
I've tryed the same chain with and without audiogridder, and at least on Fl Studio, if i place the same amount of plugins natively or inside ag, they behave at the same way.

So at the end ag doesn't worth it running on the same pc, at least with FL Studio, because there is no difference in performance
Old 2 weeks ago
  #184
Acustica Audio
 
AcusticaCM's Avatar
I think there is already an Audio Gridder thread where you can share your experiences and leave this thread for those using Snow on officially supported hosts. Thank you!
Old 1 week ago
  #185
Lives for gear
 
dasoundjunkie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I had no idea there was another thread about this and only brought it up because as much as I love and use your products (I own most of them, including Snow) they are very hard on resources, end of story.

If an end user found something that would facilitate workflow and it (Legally) benefitted the entire community that uses your products I do not see how its not worth bringing up the possibility, or maybe consider making gridder something that DOES work with your tools. I can guarantee you would sell a lot more plugins.

I will not bring this up again, it was an experiment, it failed. I've heaped nothing but praise for your company and own the tools that enhance every single mix and master I do. Being that I just started using your products about 10 months ago and Its been about three years since I've been on GS I got the impression that you guys take a lot of flak for the CPU hit your tools require.

After I saw your comment I did a little search and I can see where this reaction comes from.

My apologies, I wasn't trying to derail the thread, its information that I would personally want to know and so I shared it. In the future I'll try to find the pertinent thread
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #186
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surbitone ➡️
I think it sounds great. Very, very smooth, compression. Clean, clear, punchy, but not overly so. The limiter does not like being pushed beyond it’s comfort zone, but used sparingly, is good for getting a few peaks off whilst adding a bit of drama. The m/s Eq is not what I expected, it’s actually very effective at big picture brush strokes, you can do a lot with it very quickly. Haven’t tried the Eq, pre or standalone compressor yet. I’ve been testing before the analogue chain and so far I’m really liking it. I’ve been comparing between Dangerous compressor, and it holds up nicely + is capable of similar things. The silk dial is really cool... again, surprisingly so. Not going to spurt a bunch of meaningless superlatives, but it’s a solid, solid tool. We’ll see how it goes, but I could see myself picking one up.
Thank you!! yeesh, I wish more people would actually talk about the plugin
Old 1 week ago
  #187
Lives for gear
 
Jpga's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Snow MB was on the master bus on this track!

https://open.spotify.com/track/4HHG2...RE-BH135rZiYRg

If you like and want’s to now which multiple plugs were used. let me now there was 3 more.

Love the Snow.

Last edited by Jpga; 1 week ago at 07:57 AM..
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #188
Gear Addict
 
Digital Crush's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpga ➡️
Snow MB was on the master bus on this track!

https://open.spotify.com/track/4HHG2...RE-BH135rZiYRg

If you lile and want’s to now which multiple plugs were used. let me now there was 3 more.

Love the Snow.
Hey thank you for sharing, did you use the depth and width controls on this master. I wish someone who owns the hardware could do some comparisons. Snow MB really delivers imo
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #189
Lives for gear
 
Jpga's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Crush ➡️
Hey thank you for sharing, did you use the depth and width controls on this master. I wish someone who owns the hardware could do some comparisons. Snow MB really delivers imo
Hi and yes I use depht but just a toch little goes long way here and I wish I had the hardware just for the cpu the SMB sounds wounderful and is full of life!
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #190
Gear Addict
 
Well, if folks haven’t posted this already - an actual breakdown video which focuses on the plugin; and he loved it.


Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #191
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by DamianL ➡️
Well, if folks haven’t posted this already - an actual breakdown video which focuses on the plugin; and he loved it.


I'm i drunk or what? I mean there is a huge difference between hardware and snow.

Don't get me wrong, i'm a huge fan of Acustica, i work in the box only, and i think their plugin gave me a chance to play in another level, but in this video i hear the difference between hw and plugin, i don't know if it's just matter of settings that doesn't match between them or if it's just because the hardware is better
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #192
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie.T ➡️
I'm i drunk or what? I mean there is a huge difference between hardware and snow.

Don't get me wrong, i'm a huge fan of Acustica, i work in the box only, and i think their plugin gave me a chance to play in another level, but in this video i hear the difference between hw and plugin, i don't know if it's just matter of settings that doesn't match between them or if it's just because the hardware is better
To be honest I don’t even listen to the audio in YouTube comparison videos as I find they are usually terrible at giving you an idea of what the sound is like - for any plugin. I’ll tune in for an opinion and chat etc...but the audio? I’ll use my own demo version etc...

So far - I love the snow eq... master bus processor? Not really gelled with it yet...
Old 1 week ago
  #193
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
You are not drunk...:-)

I'm still demoing the Snow and it actually sounds good but my analog chain beats it very easily ( as you would expect given the price difference ).
Old 1 week ago
  #194
Lives for gear
 
dasoundjunkie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
There are 2 things that might be affecting the shootout. One, the hardware feels slightly higher in volume and 2 he is using a preamp from the plugin that is not on the hardware. Would like to hear this again but with better level matching and the preamp circuit turned off on the plugin
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #195
Gear Addict
 
Digital Crush's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DamianL ➡️
.

So far - I love the snow eq... master bus processor? Not really gelled with it yet...
I had exactly the opposite impressions... The Eq, i found to be nothing special, but was impressed with the MB, depth and width eq, and mostly the compressor (metering felt a bit misleading though at some point). It might turn out not close to hardware but i don't care
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #196
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasoundjunkie ➡️
I regret to inform that my experiment with Audio Gridder while promising at the beginning has ended in failure.
After a certain number of instances (that according to both pro tools and audio gridder where consuming 5% and 11% respectively) there is a catastrophic crash with the PT meter slammed at 100% and the session rendered useless and unplayable even if I removed the AG instances.

I tried with server on an external computer and the main studio tower. Also tried the new betas but those wouldn't even load in PT

Guess we'll go back to freezing stuff, the sound is worth the patience required to work like this. Would have been nice though...
DId you tried to lower the buffer ?

My experience is that DAW have difficulties to handle the way AG works.

In Cubase I was able to handle 150+ tracks using only AG plugins remotely with 2 servers. I noticed that I needed to lower buffer and disable ASIO. As soon as I increase buffer, use local plugin or activate ASIO buffering I got drops.

Without ASIO and low buffer I can handle very large projects.

Moreover you need to be carefull with chaining plugins in AG. As soon as a single core reach 100% (can be easy with one Acustica plugin !) even with a low global cpu load you will have drop because one core is saturating.

Last, your network quality is critical.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #197
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcusticaCM ➡️
I think there is already an Audio Gridder thread where you can share your experiences and leave this thread for those using Snow on officially supported hosts. Thank you!
Snow is really good, no doubt. As a lot of acustica stuff.
One step ahead of softube, UAD and others.

I have made the jump a few months ago and I am buying more and more.

But quickly I started to be disapointed. Bugs and problems happens, but the Acustica Support is from an other dimension.

Choosen examples : A commercial product that dont work ... They wrote me :why did you buy it ? (seriously who says tthat ...) You should have check the trial before (Guys I wrote you that the trial is still working but you have an authorization bug).

Next I got some error message on an other product that nobody knows about (Guys someone coded that message, so it should means something).

Plugin crashes ... try to reinstall it (Guys I did that several times before writing to you, I am not stupid and dont want to waste your time...)

Last I made the (serious mistake to buy two plugins within a couple of hours. I didnt get the loyalty coupon after the second order (by the way it is a great loyalty program ... it is a pity it doesnt work ...) because of a bug (they probably send the loyalty code by batch).
After a few incredible replys (Guys do you really read the message ???) I was promised a new code very soon.
Having no news I write again to support ... who replied to me : You will have it very soon, that is to say before December 31th 2021 (Seriously guys, how can you write that to a loyal customer ?)

So great company, amazing tech, bugs (I can live with that), worst support I have ever seen (that I cant live with there is no excuse for that !).

Should I add that as a loyal customer, I will be rewarded with no discount for the upcoming sales because Acustica and its support is treating their customer badly.

May be I made a mistake investing in Acustica, and may be should I invested in other products (who have amazing support, and great loyalty program for years).

Tech is not the only thing, because at the end you will have some issues ... and nobody will be there.

May I ask what is your plan to change that ? If you dont take your customers into considerations and treat them nicely, you will fail as a company. Acustica should be a leader in Audio industry, but you are going the wrong way behaving like that.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #198
Acustica Audio
 
AcusticaCM's Avatar
Hello @ sergenas I'm sorry to hear this, if you can, give me your ticket number I can review it.
In general, we always recommend installing the trial before buying, not only so you can see how it works but also to see that it works well on your system.
Products pass a QA for all supported DAWs, so problems generally happen on the user's computer or configuration (not supported Symlink, corrupted OS, etc.

Regarding the Loyal Customer Program, although there were some problems, they have already been solved, as long as you have the GDPR consent option checked in your account, you should be able to receive the discounts.

But I can review your case, without any problem.
Best regards.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #199
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcusticaCM ➡️
Hello @ sergenas I'm sorry to hear this, if you can, give me your ticket number I can review it.
In general, we always recommend installing the trial before buying, not only so you can see how it works but also to see that it works well on your system.
Products pass a QA for all supported DAWs, so problems generally happen on the user's computer or configuration (not supported Symlink, corrupted OS, etc.

Regarding the Loyal Customer Program, although there were some problems, they have already been solved, as long as you have the GDPR consent option checked in your account, you should be able to receive the discounts.

But I can review your case, without any problem.
Best regards.
Hello,

As explained, one of the issue was related to Aquarius authorization for commercial product, trial was working fine. Anyway after a while an update fixed it.

Issues happen, I dont complain about that (I work in tech for most than 20 years so I know about that .

But clearly your support team is not at the same level than your products (and it is a pitty because you have great products !), which is a real issues for your customer.

I decided a couple of months ago to fully mixed ITB a new album (and may be ITB mastering who knows ...). I already removed all AA plugins on several tracks, because of decreasing trust in AA (again, not in your products, but in suppport). I am considering doing the same for other tracks, which is a pitty ...

About loyalty email not sent ,my ticket is #23034 .

I already received a lot of them. Clearly the issue seems to be related to two order on the same day, having received a loyalty coupon after the first one (used on the second order same day) ... then no more loyalty email or code after the second order (and still none, hoping your support will react with something else than : you will have one before December 31th of this year !

Thanks
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #200
Lives for gear
 
dasoundjunkie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sergenas ➡️
DId you tried to lower the buffer ?

My experience is that DAW have difficulties to handle the way AG works.

In Cubase I was able to handle 150+ tracks using only AG plugins remotely with 2 servers. I noticed that I needed to lower buffer and disable ASIO. As soon as I increase buffer, use local plugin or activate ASIO buffering I got drops.

Without ASIO and low buffer I can handle very large projects.

Moreover you need to be carefull with chaining plugins in AG. As soon as a single core reach 100% (can be easy with one Acustica plugin !) even with a low global cpu load you will have drop because one core is saturating.

Last, your network quality is critical.
I finally got it working with beta 3, just finished a mix with a giant snow console. Had to end up using it natively but hey, it works
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #201
Acustica Audio
 
AcusticaCM's Avatar
@ sergenas I was reviewing your ticket, to clarify several things:
Sending a discount code for the Loyal Customers program is not immediate, nowhere is it stipulated that after purchasing a product you immediately receive a new discount code.
Due to the number of customers who receive the discounts, the system generates and sends them in small batches, so a delay of a few days is to be expected.
Everything looks good on your account, so within this week or at the latest next, you should be receiving a new code.
The ticket was always answered courteously, what I see is that you did not read the answers of our agents very well and you kept asking the same questions.
If you have any additional questions you can contact me via PM.
Best regards.
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #202
Here for the gear
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcusticaCM ➡️
@ sergenas I was reviewing your ticket, to clarify several things:
Sending a discount code for the Loyal Customers program is not immediate, nowhere is it stipulated that after purchasing a product you immediately receive a new discount code.
Due to the number of customers who receive the discounts, the system generates and sends them in small batches, so a delay of a few days is to be expected.
Everything looks good on your account, so within this week or at the latest next, you should be receiving a new code.
The ticket was always answered courteously, what I see is that you did not read the answers of our agents very well and you kept asking the same questions.
If you have any additional questions you can contact me via PM.
Best regards.
Dont get me wrong, the ticket was answered courteously.
Just as for several other technical issues, the reply was not relevant.

I always received the loyalty email within a day (hours in fact ...). I can cite 3 others people who said the same to me by email.
Your technical support wrongly replied I got it as I should have, confirming only one email was sent after my first order.

2 weeks after I dont have it !

What I dont understand is why, as other leading companies, you just dont say : sorry, there was an issue, we will fix it. A lot of people are having troubles with AA and again, it is a pity because you have great product, and customers need to have trust in companies to buy their product.
People are buying products because they trust the company.

What should I do ?

Is the loyalty program random ?
So loyal customer may or may not get a coupon after buying ? And may have a coupon within 7 months (citing here your support reply stating I should have it "very soon" and before "December 31 2021 23:59 ?"

As a loyal customer should I Miss the next sale because 2 weeks after I dont have the loyalty code ? Forget about buying AA plugins ? When I know people that have put order since my last one and got their loyalty email within the next hours ? And have spent less money ?
Old 6 days ago | Show parent
  #203
Acustica Audio
 
AcusticaCM's Avatar
That you do not receive a discount code immediately after a purchase does not mean waiting 7 months for another, only a couple of days, once it is generated and sent if it does not arrive, we cannot know the reasons. The problem that was solved is when users changed their email and stopped receiving discounts, which is not your case.
It happened that we received tickets and then the user confirms that he did not see it, deleted it by mistake or simply went to his spam folder.
I can see that your last discount code was sent on 5/26 and you already used it, so as I said before you will be receiving another one in the next few days.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #204
Gear Addict
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasoundjunkie ➡️
I had no idea there was another thread about this and only brought it up because as much as I love and use your products (I own most of them, including Snow) they are very hard on resources, end of story.

If an end user found something that would facilitate workflow and it (Legally) benefitted the entire community that uses your products I do not see how its not worth bringing up the possibility, or maybe consider making gridder something that DOES work with your tools. I can guarantee you would sell a lot more plugins.

I will not bring this up again, it was an experiment, it failed. I've heaped nothing but praise for your company and own the tools that enhance every single mix and master I do. Being that I just started using your products about 10 months ago and Its been about three years since I've been on GS I got the impression that you guys take a lot of flak for the CPU hit your tools require.

After I saw your comment I did a little search and I can see where this reaction comes from.

My apologies, I wasn't trying to derail the thread, its information that I would personally want to know and so I shared it. In the future I'll try to find the pertinent thread
Dude, you dont have to apologize. Acustica doesn't own this website or this thread. Keeping us posted on autogridder is pretty relevant since the main challenge for many with Acquas is still CPU. Don't let Acustica bounce you around. Speak your speech.
Old 4 days ago | Show parent
  #205
Lives for gear
 
dasoundjunkie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by sound_of_ours ➡️
Dude, you dont have to apologize. Acustica doesn't own this website or this thread. Keeping us posted on autogridder is pretty relevant since the main challenge for many with Acquas is still CPU. Don't let Acustica bounce you around. Speak your speech.
Appreciate the support man but in truth I kind of get the reason why they reacted the way they did. It reminded me of the way every single UAD release turns into an UNDEPOWEREDCHIPSUADIS**** chorus and very few people actually talk about what the tool actually sounds like.

All that aside I do believe it is pertinent and since I cannot figure out how to set up a precise link to the comment on the other thread I'm just going to copy-paste what I wrote on there (UAD vs Acustica).
This was my experience with it so far:

Took me a while to get it working (version trial and error) but I am using gridder and loving it. The only thing (in my admittedly limited experience with it) is that you can't trust the consumption meter on it.

I started just mixing with it to see how far I could push. At one point the Protools cpu said it was at 15%, the one on gridder was reading 23%, I'm feeling like there's no bottom to it (I had about 14 channels with at least 2 or 3 plugs on them). Then there was a massive crash, I had found the bottom.

You kinda start getting a feel for when you are going too far because of the computer's behavior. Now every 8 to 10 instances I freeze, problem solved. The other thing is that you cannot feed un frozen tracks that have gridder on them to busses that also have gridder (or Acustica) because there is a massive delay that pro tools cannot compensate for. Not a deal breaker by any means but something to be aware of. (something not on the original thread that I noticed recently, gridder does NOT like being moved from one slot to another once processing is on it. It gets...pissy)

That aside, I just finished a mix with 90% of the processing being done with SNOW (really wanted to get a feel for what a console like that would sound like). Inside gridder the controls work better, there are no spikes (provided you haven't crossed the line into too far) and everything is way more immediate.

I'm probably going to make a separate, small but powerful computer whose sole function will be running gridder for Acustica, virtual instruments etc.

This is the sum total of what I can say on the subject and to Acustica I say, please understand that this is not about undercutting your products but about increasing your user base. I recommend your stuff to anyone who will listen because they ARE that good. The trade off in resources however is not one that everyone can easily make, hence the work arounds suggested by myself and others.

We've been having huge rolling blackouts in Puerto Rico so power permitting I'll post the mix done with Snow (still have a few small tweaks to do on it) which will speak to just how good the bundle is way better than I can verbally, suffice it to say that it made a rather difficult task way easier than expected.

Last edited by dasoundjunkie; 3 days ago at 09:40 PM..
Old 2 days ago | Show parent
  #206
Lives for gear
 
doom64's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasoundjunkie ➡️
Appreciate the support man but in truth I kind of get the reason why they reacted the way they did. It reminded me of the way every single UAD release turns into an UNDEPOWEREDCHIPSUADIS**** chorus and very few people actually talk about what the tool actually sounds like.
...

Took me a while to get it working (version trial and error) but I am using gridder and loving it. The only thing (in my admittedly limited experience with it) is that you can't trust the consumption meter on it.

I started just mixing with it to see how far I could push. At one point the Protools cpu said it was at 15%, the one on gridder was reading 23%, I'm feeling like there's no bottom to it (I had about 14 channels with at least 2 or 3 plugs on them). Then there was a massive crash, I had found the bottom.

You kinda start getting a feel for when you are going too far because of the computer's behavior. Now every 8 to 10 instances I freeze, problem solved. The other thing is that you cannot feed un frozen tracks that have gridder on them to busses that also have gridder (or Acustica) because there is a massive delay that pro tools cannot compensate for. Not a deal breaker by any means but something to be aware of. (something not on the original thread that I noticed recently, gridder does NOT like being moved from one slot to another once processing is on it. It gets...pissy)
The difference between UAD and Acustica though is, with UAD you are locked into hardware that was released in the year 2008. With Acustica, even affordable desktop processors from the year 2017 are smooth sailing (in my experience).

Heck, I am using a processor from the year 2013 on my main mixing rig! But it's an i7 desktop, not laptop processors like many try and fail to use with AA plugins.

16 GB+ RAM + i7 or better CPU + SSD + efficient DAW = happy Acustica plugins.

Thanks for being a guinea pig, your feedback is much appreciated!
Old 19 hours ago
  #207
Lives for gear
 
dasoundjunkie's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Ok
First full gridder mix with SNOW on literally everything.
I specifically chose this recording because it was done on what seemed to me like a carboard box with really reflective walls (yes I am aware of the contradiction but I have no other way to describe it). Everything and I do mean EVERYTHING, had a lot of of every boxy frequency you can imagine, a gigantic hole where everything that gives punch lives (80hz to120hz was a hole about 8db deep) yet somehow the snare had way to much energy at 35hz. (my guess is they had very small monitors and couldn't hear the mic pre crapping out on the snare because the thump down there was sporadic, but that is just a guess because 35hz made absolutely no sense). Did I mention that it all sounded reeeeeally harsh? The pick on the acoustic felt like an icepick. (according to the analyzer the recording had all kinds of fun stuff happening in the 2.8 to 5.2k range)

Right up front I have to say that Snow is wonderful. Everything in the bundle sounds amazing and has a ton of depth. Image is wide (and MB can make that wider with ease) and the preamps alone can keep you occupied for hours. Aside from a few corrective things on frequencies not available on Snow all eq and compression duties where done only in Snow. The only additional things are UAD Studer tape on the channels and the Ampex on the maser buss. (Corrective stuff outside of Snow was handled by the Eiosis Air EQ)

When I said that this bundle made everything easier I'm not even close to kidding. It made getting rid of the offending frequencies and adding energy where needed a very pleasant experience (way easier than I expected) and more importantly it didn't sound like I was cutting/adding anywhere near the amount of EQ that I did.

In mastering was the only place where I wished for Snow to have some kind of metering for the limiter. I couldn't for the life of me get it to sound right (to me, YMMV and all that). It was almost like by the time I actually heard what it was doing it was too much and it became too gooey.

In mastering the DEPTH and WIDTH controls on MB are nothing short of amazing, just keep in mind that a little goes a long way.
Being that the limiter is literally the only thing I don't get along with I cannot recommend this bundle enough.

Gridder was good for everything but MB. I remastered the track a few times trying different options and every single time I came back to the session I would have to take MB out and re do it from scratch. I couldn't create a working preset on it and it simply didn't want to cooperate no matter what I tried. It just slammed the cpu meter on protools and that was that. Seeing as I wasn't doing a lot on MB it was a minor inconvenience but worth mentioning.

I'll probably tweak this a little more but I think this gives a pretty good idea of how flexible Snow is.
Fantastic job Acustica...seriously!

(I forgot to mention, the level for mastering was done on the Weiss MM1)
Attached Files

Me Va .mp3 (8.27 MB, 260 views)


Last edited by dasoundjunkie; 18 hours ago at 01:54 AM.. Reason: incomplete data
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