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EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Gold phase problems
Old 2nd February 2009
  #1
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Exclamation EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Gold phase problems

hi. is it just my inexperience with symphonic orchestral recordings, or almost every single instrument in this sample library is slightly out of phase?!

I recently laid down an orchestral track with ewqlso and the overall mix had pretty serious anti-phase and smearing problems.

anyone with experience: is it the same thing to narrow down the stereo image on the overall mix to escape the phase issues, or do I have to narrow down every instrument?! the thing is, as i've seen, the instruments in the library are already panned/recorded in their original positions...
Old 2nd February 2009
  #2
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Etch-A-Sketch's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariuslacatus ➑️
hi. is it just my inexperience with symphonic orchestral recordings, or almost every single instrument in this sample library is slightly out of phase?!

I recently laid down an orchestral track with ewqlso and the overall mix had pretty serious anti-phase and smearing problems.

anyone with experience: is it the same thing to narrow down the stereo image on the overall mix to escape the phase issues, or do I have to narrow down every instrument?! the thing is, as i've seen, the instruments in the library are already panned/recorded in their original positions...
The only time you might run into phase issues is if you are using any of the "round robin" [labeled RR] patches and are using multiple mic positions of that same patch. For example, if you are using Marc UpDn RRx3 Close AND Full mic positions, and you somehow triggered one but not both before playback, then the samples will be out of sync and phase shifting can occur. It mentions this in the manual too.

As far as panning goes, you should be able to pan each instrument in the plugin window to place it where you want it, and MIDI pan automation should work for you.

Since you are using the gold, I'm not sure how you could encounter phase issues since you really don't have a lot of the "C" (Close) or "S" (Surround) mic positions. But, if you are encountering phase issues, just check to make sure you aren't using the same articulation at two different mic posiitions... The mic positions were designed to be played together by a single part. You have to think of them as mic positions of the same performance. If you have the C position of an articulation playing one line and the F position playing a different line, then you could potentially get phasing.
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #3
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
I noticed that EWQLSO has a lot of low end frequencies going on, even with instruments that doesn't really contain low end. It not always notable by ear but if you use an Analyzer you'll see it plus when using a hi-pass filter the mix sounds so much better. Now you may say, of course it will sound better because it's normal when using hi-pass filters the low end is going to sound more defined but why is it even there, when the instrument shouldn't contain any of these frequencies?
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #4
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
The only time you might run into phase issues is if you are using any of the "round robin" [labeled RR] patches
just load, say.. 10 violins long lyrical patch, put a phase meter after it (sonalksis stereo tools here), play some notes and you get negative correlation...


EDIT: i believe Gold is similar to platinum, but with only Stage mic positions, and 16bit samples.

_
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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danijel's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariuslacatus ➑️
just load, say.. 10 violins long lyrical patch, put a phase meter after it (sonalksis stereo tools here), play some notes and you get negative correlation...
So, you're worried about mono compatibility? Many good classical recordings are done with an A/B main pair, and are thus un-correlated (and sound much worse in mono). It's always a problem with stereo piano and orchestral samples. You shouldn't worry....
Old 2nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #6
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by danijel ➑️
So, you're worried about mono compatibility? Many good classical recordings are done with an A/B main pair, and are thus un-correlated (and sound much worse in mono). It's always a problem with stereo piano and orchestral samples. You shouldn't worry....
thanks. yeah, i guess the mono compatibility was actually my problem. and, as you say, some arrangements sound much worse in mono...


-
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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Etch-A-Sketch's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
yeah, in that case you shouldn't worry about it. It's the nature of any A/B stereo recording. The samples aren't really geared to be summed to mono. If you need mono, just mute one side and then pan I guess.

Last edited by Etch-A-Sketch; 3rd February 2009 at 12:59 AM.. Reason: typo
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #8
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Marbarbaar's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I have the same problem with all orchestral samples. They sound horrendous in mono. Do I 'need' mono? Not always, but as far as I'm concerned, anything that won't sound good in mono doesn't sound good in stereo. (opening a can of worms again?)

Also, I made an orchestral track for tv once which sounded like absolute crap on tv.
(basically sounded like when I sum the track to mono


So, is it not important, especially for tv work? I SO wonder "how pro's do it".

(panning to the side and make it mono doesn't improve anything, every sample sounds like baloney if it's only L or R.

Darn it, please ,HOW do you pro's do it?!
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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Etch-A-Sketch's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marbarbaar ➑️
I have the same problem with all orchestral samples. They sound horrendous in mono. Do I 'need' mono? Not always, but as far as I'm concerned, anything that won't sound good in mono doesn't sound good in stereo. (opening a can of worms again?)

Also, I made an orchestral track for tv once which sounded like absolute crap on tv.
(basically sounded like when I sum the track to mono


So, is it not important, especially for tv work? I SO wonder "how pro's do it".

(panning to the side and make it mono doesn't improve anything, every sample sounds like baloney if it's only L or R.

Darn it, please ,HOW do you pro's do it?!
they mix it in stereo and don't worry about mono compatibility.


I've worked on literally thousands of tracks for TV and film. Mix it to stereo and forget about mono. Most TVs now have stereo speakers built in. If someone is listening in mono, they are the minority. You can't please all the people all the time...

And one other thing to consider is the "sound" is relative. If someone is watching TV every day on their mono set... what makes you think YOUR mix is going to stand out as sounding awful? For all you know your mix could be one of the best sounding mixes to come through the speaker!!!! Just because it sounds like crap compared to the stereo doesn't really matter... LIke I said, it's all relative...

Music coordinators, music supervisors, directors, producers, mixers, and QC personal are listening to your mix in stereo, not mono. If you sacrifice the stereo mix for mono compatibility, Music Sup's might move past your mix because it doesn't feel as "big" or "vibrant" as others that may not be mono compatible. In the end, you probably care more about mono than the people buying your music from you...

Out of the 15,000 or so songs we place in TV every day (and have for the last 18 years), we have yet to receive a single complaint that the mix sounded like crap in mono... Definitely food for thought...
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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on the flip side of this though, is the live event consideration.

The vast majority of live playback systems are summed mono, and if you think your music will ever be heard on one of those systems then the mono compatibility factor becomes a pretty big one.

I did a mix recently of a video open for the Dallas Stars where the main track had all kinds of great stereo panning and effects going on. Needless to say it was quite a bit weaker when summed to mono.

Everything
at the American Airlines Center, the Ballpark in Arlington, and Pizza Hut Park in Frisco gets played in mono (including TV spots that are typically broadcast in stereo).
Old 4th February 2009
  #11
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minister's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I find that with samples the more you use, the worse it becomes. Sparse arrangements can sound great, dense ones get too thick and smeared. You also have to understand that if you use multiple patches, they were not recorded "at the same time" so the notes will not be in "phase". You have to keep searching for patches that blend well. Try combining them with patches from another library.

Narrowing the stereo patch will not improve mono compatibility; it will only sound more narrow in stereo and still be a problem in mono.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
Marbarbaar's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch ➑️
they mix it in stereo and don't worry about mono compatibility.


I've worked on literally thousands of tracks for TV and film. Mix it to stereo and forget about mono. Most TVs now have stereo speakers built in. If someone is listening in mono, they are the minority. You can't please all the people all the time...

And one other thing to consider is the "sound" is relative. If someone is watching TV every day on their mono set... what makes you think YOUR mix is going to stand out as sounding awful? For all you know your mix could be one of the best sounding mixes to come through the speaker!!!! Just because it sounds like crap compared to the stereo doesn't really matter... LIke I said, it's all relative...

Music coordinators, music supervisors, directors, producers, mixers, and QC personal are listening to your mix in stereo, not mono. If you sacrifice the stereo mix for mono compatibility, Music Sup's might move past your mix because it doesn't feel as "big" or "vibrant" as others that may not be mono compatible. In the end, you probably care more about mono than the people buying your music from you...

Out of the 15,000 or so songs we place in TV every day (and have for the last 18 years), we have yet to receive a single complaint that the mix sounded like crap in mono... Definitely food for thought...

Good stuff Derek, very interesting indeed.

Even more so, a bit encouraging since I now guess I shouldn't have to be so mono compatibility obsessed.


comining diffent ptaches is a nice idea also!
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