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Logic -> Ableton (again)
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #31
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Phaidon's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by valis ➡️
a closer look at the multi-core cpu meter in Logic usually shows one core overloading but not your "live mode" core (the last one).
meaning what?
My scoring template involves a lot of Kontakt and Reverberate instances plus a few Omnis.
Very similar performance between Logic and Live.
Same template on Cubase 6 on the PC, flies btw...but that's for another thread.
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #32
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ohmicide's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by valis ➡️
Show me your link and I can comment further.
I posted it earlier on the threat but here it is again

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8692215-post109.html
Old 1st February 2013
  #33
Gear Head
 
Bellico's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 5 years
It's funny. I've been working in logic for years now. Another producer I work with works in Live. We both also work in PT.

The two of us run a studio together and we often assist on each others sessions.

I always like little things that I see in Live when I sit in on his sessions and I also like his sounds.

He swears to me that logic sounds better than any other DAW. Yet he still works in live... Maybe cuz he is a diehard PC guy.

The funny thing is, though both have the grass is greener syndrome with logic and live... neither of us uses PT for writing... Yet still we run a studio that is primarily PTHD and 2" tape.

I've been a musician since I was 4 and a studio rat since 14. One thing I learned:

A good guitarist can play well on his guitar. A great guitarist can make any guitar sing.
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #34
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valis's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaidon ➡️
meaning what?
My scoring template involves a lot of Kontakt and Reverberate instances plus a few Omnis.
Very similar performance between Logic and Live.
Same template on Cubase 6 on the PC, flies btw...but that's for another thread.
Perhaps something related to your specific usage of Live then? I don't have Omni or Reverberate to compare 100% but Live in OSX performs only slightly worse than it does for identical hardware on Win7 for me, and I have most of the plugins available on both platforms. Cubase performs better than Live here but I'm still on v5.5.3 here so again it's probably not a 1:1 correlation to your setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohmicide ➡️
I posted it earlier on the threat but here it is again

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8692215-post109.html
So were all of these tracks in Logic unselected and playing back midi?

The main reason I stress the hybrid engine issues with Logic is because I see endless confusion on GS and other forums/sites over why core overloading occurs in Logic differently than <Option Y>. I have no bone to pick over either program being superior, they both have their uses for me to date.
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #35
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellico ➡️
He swears to me that logic sounds better than any other DAW.
...and you still let him 'run a studio' with you, if that's his level of audio expertise?
Old 1st February 2013 | Show parent
  #36
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Phaidon's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mholloway ➡️
...and you still let him 'run a studio' with you, if that's his level of audio expertise?
lol!!
+1
Old 2nd February 2013 | Show parent
  #37
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djanthonyw's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellico ➡️
He swears to me that logic sounds better than any other DAW. Yet he still works in live... Maybe cuz he is a diehard PC guy.
It's most likely that he's not turning off Ableton's warp feature, that would be a reason why he might think that Logic sounds better. If the warp feature is on with multiple tracks, then yes, Logic is going to sound better. When no warping is involved every DAW is going to sound the same, except maybe Harrison's Mixbus and Reason since they both offer an analog modeled mixer by default without the ability to turn it off.
Old 3rd February 2013
  #38
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
I think I can provide a good example of using both. I run a studio but also play keys in a band (recording the 1st album now), and also do a more electronic side project with just the guitarist. I wouldn't think of using Live to record the band, and I wouldn't think of using Logic in conjunction with either project's live shows.

Live couldn't help me sculpt the sound of the cut tracks nearly as readily as Logic, and Logic couldn't allow the added overlays to the live sound, visual sync options, and above all the ability to import your own effects and other modules via Max for Live.

The two projects are gradually merging so we may have to decide at some point which one to use, if going back and forth is slowing down our workflow. But for the time being, I don't see why we can't use both apps with good results.

I only end up bouncing a few overlay tracks from Logic to Live, and if I need to do the odd time stretch I will use Wavelab 7 (who's algorithms are much better that Warp, evidently since it's not realtime).

To the OP: you'll have to describe your project goals more to get good advice, I think.
Old 3rd February 2013 | Show parent
  #39
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ohmicide's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by valis ➡️
So were all of these tracks in Logic unselected and playing back midi?
yes, but the test is still far from scientific since both DAWs manage cores differently supposedly

what was interesting was that in this test, Logic would get a MIDI sync error before a CPU overload which was still before reaching half my CPU

Quote:
Originally Posted by valis ➡️
The main reason I stress the hybrid engine issues with Logic is because I see endless confusion on GS and other forums/sites over why core overloading occurs in Logic differently than <Option Y>. I have no bone to pick over either program being superior, they both have their uses for me to date.
yeah it is confusing for sure, all I know is that Logic just never seemed to be able to keep the cores/threads evenly managed, causing random spikes and CPU overloads almost at random

one thing that is really annoying about Logic is that instead of getting over a little spike, it STOPS and gives you an overload message

but then again, in Logic, just simply muting a track will unload it from you CPU as opposed to in Live that the only thing you can do is freeze the track or delete it
Old 4th February 2013
  #40
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ohmicide's Avatar
just did another Live vs. Logic test, this one yielded completely different results

this time constant being ACE's default patch playing a single note

I kept adding tracks in Live until crackles started to appear

there were no crackles in Logic even after the overload messages started to appear, so I kept adding tracks until the over messages came up

something that was quite interesting was that Logic did about the same, if not worse, with the buffer size set to 1024 as opposed to 512 while Live did better letting it load around 10 tracks more

512 buffer size

Live 8 - 40
Live 9 - 41
Logic 9 - 61

1024 buffer sizer

Live 8 - 51
Live 9 - 51
Logic 9 - 61
Old 4th February 2013
  #41
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valis's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
If you're using midi to drive this, you're getting the process buffer not the live/core audio buffer in Logic, which IS 1024 samples in the medium setting iirc (512/1024/2048 used to correlate to small/med/large and I assume still do).

And yes core overloads are common in Logic for various reasons and require specific workarounds depending on the specific cause. I'm personally aware of at least 2-3 causes/fixes.
Old 4th February 2013 | Show parent
  #42
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ohmicide's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by valis ➡️
If you're using midi to drive this, you're getting the process buffer not the live/core audio buffer in Logic, which IS 1024 samples in the medium setting iirc (512/1024/2048 used to correlate to small/med/large and I assume still do).

And yes core overloads are common in Logic for various reasons and require specific workarounds depending on the specific cause. I'm personally aware of at least 2-3 causes/fixes.
damm, I did not know that... had it set to large too

it's actually 1024/2048/4096 from what I've heard btw

so now I have to do the test again with a small buffer

EDIT: just tried the test with a small process buffer range and got the same exact results

macbook must be feeling good too cos it just loaded up to 64 tracks without overloading, this **** seems temperamental haha
Old 4th February 2013
  #43
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valis's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
In my experience the difference in track counts with the process buffer isn't enormous until I start mixing a variety of tasks in Logic (disk caching for audio tracks, pulling samples into EXS24 which has a hit on the disk cache and some memory overhead, Kontakt & multi outs to load up a single core where I need another 10% etc). In general people's specific usages of any computing task isn't well represented by simple benchmarks, obviously. Hence why I said before it might be something specific to one's usage... In general Logic's performance 'stays consistent' at lower latencies *because* it's using the higher mix buffer, when other applications match a similar ASIO/Core Audio buffer setting then performance numbers tend to come in line. Logic must have a blank or unassigned track selected for this last comparison to work 100% though...

And the process buffer could be 1024/2048/4096 now, the last time I googled it I failed to find a definitive answer from Apple but there's actually quite a bit in Logic that's not documented anymore so referring to older documentation may not work 100%. I have full docs here from v5 through v8 (the last set of printed manuals afaik). It's not too hard to test and find out what the buffer settings are though I rarely disable PDC so I mostly just work considering that it's there and try to avoid stacking up unreasonable latencies with my bussing (because Logic gets very sluggish feeling).

In any case Logic's 'performance' achilles heel is the hybrid mix buffer as well, because it causes developers to tune for conditions that are opposite many other users and devs may not test say 8000+ sample delays that I'm sure occur in Logic's process buffer when people stack DSP cards + latent plugins. The number of people that complain about Logic's visual latency that turn out to be using L3 somewhere in their plugin chan (master or a bus somewhere) is high enough I stopped asking some time ago...
Old 4th February 2013 | Show parent
  #44
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
I get the same performance with 64 buffer size and 1024 with Apogee Duet
I noticed Logic can handle best CPU intensive plugins IF THEY ARE NOT HANDLED BY THE LAST CORE!!!!(only playback, not live and you have to arm other track)
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