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Is there a plugin that does this?
Old 23rd January 2013
  #31
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
After MS encoding the side signal should be mono, BX and Waves are doing something I don't get but it definitely doesn't null
A.
Old 23rd January 2013
  #32
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3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Ok, I have the demo here running.

The reason that the side material does not cancel out when summed to mono is because when you press the solo S (side) button you hear the actual side signal BEFORE it enters the M/S de-coder. (the ableton utility pluggin is basically an en-coder + de-coder strapped together)

I also did the following test:

On the BX digital pluggin I pressed the solo S (side) button and I panned the (pan s) signal completely left.
I grouped this and duplicated the chain only with the (pan S) signal completely right.
On the one chain I put a utility pluggin set to phase invert.
Result is silence, thus proving the pan S knob does not allow you to only hear the left or right side material. The only thing the Pan S knob does is pan the whole side signal containing (L-R) to the left or to the right.

First pic is with utility bypassed...second one it's on showing no signal on the tiny meter on the right...
Attached Thumbnails
Is there a plugin that does this?-adghadh.jpg   Is there a plugin that does this?-fghdgfjh.jpg  
Old 23rd January 2013 | Show parent
  #33
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3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by phas3d ➡️
Keep in mind that L-R is not mono. L has different content from from R.
That's strange, cause when I click the solo S button I DO get a mono signal.

Can you post a screenshot of your settings of the BX digital maybe?
Old 23rd January 2013 | Show parent
  #34
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiance ➡️
The reason that the side material does not cancel out when summed to mono is because when press the solo S (side) button you hear the actual side signal BEFORE it enters the M/S de-coder. (the ableton utility pluggin is basically an en-coder + de-coder strapped together)
I still don't get it
What do you hear if it isn't L-R?
A.
Old 23rd January 2013 | Show parent
  #35
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3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy_bt ➡️
I still don't get it
What do you hear if it isn't L-R?
A.
Ok lets go in depth...:-)

When the signal is split into side and mid material (En-Coding) we get the following:

Mid = Left + Right (so mid actually contains the side material as well!)

Side = Left - Right (this cancels out all mono material)

Mind you, both Mid and Side signals are mono signals now.
You can process these signals as you please...
For example, the BX digital does En-coding > EQ > De-coding. But when you press the solo S (side) button you'll hear the Side signal just after the EQ but before the De-Coding.


Now let's De-Code both Mid ans Side signals back to stereo.

Left = Mid + Side > Left = (Left + Right) + (Left - Right) = 2 X Left

Right = Mid - Side > Right = (Left + Right) - (Left - Right) = 2 X Right

As you can see, when you change either Mid or Side, it will affect the De-Coding process. For example, when you mute the Mid signal entirely you'll get the following:

Left = + Side (since the Mid signal is muted) > Left = (Left - Right)

Right = - Side (since the Mid signal is muted) > Right = -(Left - Right)

Now, when you sum this to mono you'll get silence...and that's what my test was all about.
Old 23rd January 2013 | Show parent
  #36
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiance ➡️
Ok lets go in depth...:-)
Thanks Radiance!
What I do not get is what we're hearing with both BX and Waves plugs that do not null (isn't mono)? am I repeatedly missing something?
A.
Old 23rd January 2013
  #37
Deleted d44e7f2
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by e-are ➡️
I am interested in knowing why you would want to do that. I can think of several reasons why that wouldn't be a good idea. Just curious
Its more for experimental purposes and to just have more control of what comes out of where. Try some things with different compression settings for the middle than the sides. Say I want the middle to pump a bit but the sides to stay open.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
Old 23rd January 2013
  #38
Deleted d44e7f2
Guest
So looking like the bx plugin doesn't do it. Any others out there?

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD
Old 23rd January 2013
  #39
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phas3d's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
@Radiance I really appreciate your effort in trying to clear this but you may confusing the M/S technique used here. When using M/S in mastering M is the signal that is the same in both channels like for example a kick and S is the signal that is not equal in both channel like a reverb.

Edit: That is why it is used by many mastering engineers. You can really compress the hell out of kick, bass and other instruments that are mostly present on both channels (center image) without touching the reverb thus keeping it fairly natural sounding.
Old 23rd January 2013 | Show parent
  #40
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by phas3d ➡️
you may confusing the M/S technique used here.
They're supposed to be the same
A.
Old 23rd January 2013
  #41
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phas3d's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
What I'm trying to point out is that in a mix L doesn't have the exact same content as the R. You may invert the R and sum with L and it won't null. It will only null the C (same information present in both channels).
Old 23rd January 2013 | Show parent
  #42
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3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Yes, there's only one M/S technique.

phas3d: The Mid signal consists of both right and left i.e. L + R and thus contains also the side material. Do the math yourself...it's no rocket science...

I agree that the M/S technique allows you to do some precessing on the side and mid signals but up till a certain extend.
You have to understand that processing only the side signal will also affect the mid signal and visa versa...due to the de-coding process that needs both mid and side signals to be present.
Old 23rd January 2013 | Show parent
  #43
Lives for gear
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by phas3d ➡️
What I'm trying to point out is that in a mix L doesn't have the exact same content as the R. You may invert the R and sum with L and it won't null. It will only null the C (same information present in both channels).

Can you post a screen shot of your BX digital setting?
Old 23rd January 2013
  #44
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phas3d's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Exactly.That's why I used more than one Bx EQ.

On the center channel I soloed it and on the other 2 busses I soloed the S like I told you and used Logic's pan so that I could have 3 channel outputs (L,C,R).
Here are the screenshots
Attached Images
Old 23rd January 2013 | Show parent
  #45
Lives for gear
 
3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by phas3d ➡️
What I'm trying to point out is that in a mix L doesn't have the exact same content as the R. You may invert the R and sum with L and it won't null. It will only null the C (same information present in both channels).
Sorry,I don't follow...
Old 23rd January 2013 | Show parent
  #46
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3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by phas3d ➡️
Exactly.That's why I used more than one Bx EQ.

On the center channel I soloed it and on the other 2 busses I soloed the S like I told you and used Logic's pan so that I could have 3 channel outputs (L,C,R).
Here are the screenshots

Maybe do the same with both A listen and EQ deactivated??
Old 23rd January 2013 | Show parent
  #47
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3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Basically, I did the same test (minus A listen and EQ, but they're irrelevant).

When clicking solo S I'm presented with the side signal (after EQ and before de-coding) which is mono...100%
Old 23rd January 2013
  #48
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Common M/S misconception:
M/S is NOT Mid and Sides, it is one Mid and one Side signal.
Mid = L and R in phase
Side = L and R out of phase

So what Radiance is trying to explain here is 100% true.

There is no such thing as LR -> LCR conversion

(well there is, based on FFT you can remove all content, where L and R is 0° in phase -+ 5° (just an example), leaving you with Left and Right without Mono, but it tends to sounds nasty, mp3-like)
Old 23rd January 2013 | Show parent
  #49
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phas3d's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiance ➡️
Basically, I did the same test (minus A listen and EQ, but they're irrelevant).
Right.

If you notice though I used the M/S Matrix on the M/S channels. That's why I used 3 busses. I forgot to mention that the buss sending to R is phase inverted. Here is the picture. For those unfamiliar with the MS Matrix (which I know is not your case) here is a link that further explains it.

Mid-Side (MS) Mic Recording Basics - Blog - Universal Audio
Attached Images
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