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Removing music from movie scene
Old 12th September 2012
  #1
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Removing music from movie scene

Hey all--hoping I'm posting in the correct section here..

I need to compose music for a scene in a movie for a class I'm taking. Can anyone walk me through, step-by-step, exactly how I might be able to remove music (but keep dialogue and other sound fx) from video? I'm using logic 9.

Thanks a lot!
Old 12th September 2012
  #2
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
You can't. Not in terms of removing from existing mIxes.

However, the 5.1 stream on some movies may have no music in the centre channel. Centre is mostly a dialogue channel with some production sound. Not always the case and you'll lose L R sfx.
Old 13th September 2012
  #3
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyeatworld ➑️
Hey all--hoping I'm posting in the correct section here..

I need to compose music for a scene in a movie for a class I'm taking.

Thanks a lot!
Most movie edit programs will allow you to do this. I've played around with Magix Movie Edit Pro, Adobe Premier and Elements and a few others in the entry level realm, I kinda liked Movie Edit Pro, probably because it ties into Samplitude. But they'll all pretty much work with any DAW editor. Opps, I see you're using Logic so I guess you're on a Mac... just look for Video or Movie Editing software.
Old 13th September 2012
  #4
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psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] ➑️
Most movie edit programs will allow you to do this. I've played around with Magix Movie Edit Pro, Adobe Premier and Elements and a few others in the entry level realm, I kinda liked Movie Edit Pro, probably because it ties into Samplitude. But they'll all pretty much work with any DAW editor. Opps, I see you're using Logic so I guess you're on a Mac... just look for Video or Movie Editing software.
Really?! Budget software can unmix a film?!

I'm with narco I'm afraid...most you can hope to keep is dialogue (and after watching 5+ films on long haul flights recently, there's a fair amount of dialogue that isn't central these days).
Old 13th September 2012 | Show parent
  #5
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➑️
Really?! Budget software can unmix a film?!
video, yes. Film is easier if you've got the tools to copy film, because you copy it without the audio track. But I doubt that anyone here is working with film, that would be pretty rare. And they would already know how to replace the audio.
Old 13th September 2012 | Show parent
  #6
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psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] ➑️
video, yes. Film is easier if you've got the tools to copy film, because you copy it without the audio track. But I doubt that anyone here is working with film, that would be pretty rare. And they would already know how to replace the audio.
I think you're missing the point here...he's trying to remove the MUSIC (not the full audio) and keep the dialogue and Foley/FX - so he can rescore it.

Removing the audio from a Quicktime is easy - in fact, you don't even need to remove it, just don't play it back. But that's not what's being asked.
Old 13th September 2012 | Show parent
  #7
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Paul in SoCal's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➑️
I think you're missing the point here...he's trying to remove the MUSIC (not the full audio) and keep the dialogue and Foley/FX - so he can rescore it.

Removing the audio from a Quicktime is easy - in fact, you don't even need to remove it, just don't play it back. But that's not what's being asked.
I actually got to try a couple of apps/vst's that claim they can "unmix" music. Colossal waste of time for ludicrous results.
Old 13th September 2012
  #8
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
I have a pound cake and I need to get a half dozen eggs out of it.
Old 13th September 2012
  #9
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DAW PLUS's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
You best hope is to get the original dialog and effects stems. But unless this is a student movie you'll probably land on Mars first. heh
Old 13th September 2012
  #10
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DistortingJack's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
If you have a 5.1 surround version of whatever film you're using you might want to check the central speaker channel. Very often it's used for dialogue only, without any music on it.
If it's not, then you're screwed. As the guy above said, you can't retrieve the eggs off a cake can you?
Old 13th September 2012 | Show parent
  #11
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narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] ➑️
video, yes. Film is easier if you've got the tools to copy film, because you copy it without the audio track. But I doubt that anyone here is working with film, that would be pretty rare. And they would already know how to replace the audio.
I mix movie score; big ones. I work with film a lot. He's asking to remove the music from the stereo or 5.1 stream and keep the dialogue. He'll have some success with 5.1 but cant do it with stereo - not to any great degree.
Old 13th September 2012
  #12
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
I reckon you should get the scene and strip all audio. Then recreate the Folly/FX yourself and get some mates to ADR the scene. Then compose your music on top. You'll get loads of marks for that out-the-box 'Real World' thinking.
Old 13th September 2012 | Show parent
  #13
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman ➑️
I mix movie score; big ones. I work with film a lot. He's asking to remove the music from the stereo or 5.1 stream and keep the dialogue. He'll have some success with 5.1 but cant do it with stereo - not to any great degree.
I missed the part about keeping any of the original soundtrack. That would be much harder to do and certainly be a hit or miss proposition. Of course, I also question the 'for a class' premise. We see that here all the time, and it makes no sense. Stripping the audio from a video or a movie is no big deal.
Old 13th September 2012
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
I believe it can be done using the 5.1 audio and phase inversion. I've heard a couple of tracks containing film samples that don't seem to have any of the background music. For example, Roxiller - Creature Feature seems to have an acapella of the first Slimer scene in Ghostbusters. Solid Groove - This is Sick sounds like it's taken a line from one of the later Hellraiser films.

If one of the surround channels has just the background music then you should be able to invert it and subtract it from the centre channel.
Old 13th September 2012 | Show parent
  #15
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narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickflip ➑️
I believe it can be done using the 5.1 audio and phase inversion. I've heard a couple of tracks containing film samples that don't seem to have any of the background music. For example, Roxiller - Creature Feature seems to have an acapella of the first Slimer scene in Ghostbusters. Solid Groove - This is Sick sounds like it's taken a line from one of the later Hellraiser films.

If one of the surround channels has just the background music then you should be able to invert it and subtract it from the centre channel.
Usually those sort of strip outs are from knowing people or asking for the stems for the DVD mix.

Generally you don't put the stereo music into surrounds - either specific surround mixing (which usually one puts uncorrelated ambience in the Ls and Rs) or if its a stereo music track just into L and R with a bit into C. Taking Dialogue out is often easier since it is mostly in the centre channel (although some mixing techniques may use divergence or ambience to place a bit elsewhere).

Flipping the C channel into a stereo downmix doesn't work either; the stereo movie mix is either a separate mix or a downmix with processing.
Old 14th September 2012
  #16
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phas3d's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Unless it's 5.1 and the whole dialog is on the central channel i don't see how it could be done. Maybe there is a new miraculous way :D
Old 14th September 2012 | Show parent
  #17
Gear Guru
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by phas3d ➑️
Unless it's 5.1 and the whole dialog is on the central channel i don't see how it could be done. Maybe there is a new miraculous way :D
there is a company called Audionamix that makes a product called ADX that can do 'extraction' or 'isolation' of voice and instruments.


Quote:
Music Dissociation is the process of removing the licensed music from a composite mix while preserving the dialogue and effects. This solution was created as a direct request from the Film and Television industry.
It is not perfect, but it is getting close to that Miracle. It was used to extract stems from old recordings of Edith Piaf for the recent movie about her, La Vie En Rose.

I believe it takes their computers weeks (or months?) to extract stems for one song. A long time anyway. I think they do not sell the software, they hold it close and only offer it as a service. And the service is only offered to the copyright holders of the sound recording.

And no doubt it is very very expensive. Not practical for a student film on no budget (and no rights!)

But we are rapidly running out of things that we can fairly say are "impossible". It really is starting to get to the point where you will be able to get your eggs back out of the pound cake!
Old 14th September 2012
  #18
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narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
We're not really.

It is impossible to get the original multitracks and correct extraction out of a mix. What you can get (as we all talked about near 5 years ago) is an event and probability/expert based system that gives you isolated and removed data that has the same effect as removing the vocal or bass etc. It doesn't give you the original recording of the bass - but it gives you a probabilistic modelled waveform that represents the basses contribution to that mix. The original recording is statistically, mathematically and practically lost for ever.

The system you've linked to does exactly that - gives you results that you can work with. However, in the same way as it cannot give you the source without the microphone effects, the room tone, the EQ, the compression, tape artefacts etc - it cannot give you the isolated original track the "voice" was sourced from. It isn't the same as providing multitracks (and never will do as it's a mathematical and inductive impossibility since there is an infinite way of separating things out and infinity take time). This is all people have ever said - you can't get the original out. You can do processing to greater or less levels that "does what you want". You could use such an extraction system to remove the voice from a mix - but it needs a knowledge base and an AI approach (which at this stage is some bloke doing the job - and not the fully automated hype!! heh).

Close to the miracle? Absolutely - and ever closer. But never THE miracle.
Old 18th September 2012 | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Here is something that might help.

Roland U.S. - Press Releases - ROLAND ANNOUNCES NEW R-MIX MUSIC SOFTWARE

I have a friend who has recently reviewed this product. I have not read the review, but it will show up soon. Might be worth a look.
Old 18th September 2012
  #20
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
To the original poster-

If this is just for a school project, find a movie you like, pick a scene with no music and score that. Or pick a MOVIE that has practically no score, like Dog Day Afternoon or No Country for Old Men and score something from there.

If your school is insisting that you find a scene from a movie and strip it of the music while leaving dialogue and SFX intact... drop out, run away, and never ever return to that place.
Old 1st October 2012
  #21
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BinaryMind's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
well narcoman, I don't think that there is any scientific evidence that could backup your claim that demixing is literally impossible.

I've been working on the topic for 6 years now, and I can assure you that the scientific community is getting closer and closer to unmixing as time pases by
Old 1st October 2012 | Show parent
  #22
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narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinaryMind ➑️
well narcoman, I don't think that there is any scientific evidence that could backup your claim that demixing is literally impossible.

I've been working on the topic for 6 years now, and I can assure you that the scientific community is getting closer and closer to unmixing as time pases by
Of course there is. You can get a result that sounds great and works - but as the original data is forever lost you can NEVER retrieve it. It's an entropic process. We could sit here and I could prove it to you - but it's rather trivial and boring don't you think?

Put it this way...

F(mix) = F(rec).Mix(process).

We have F(mix) and we want to find F(rec). However we do not have Mix(process) at all. There is no mathematical process at all to deconvolve or un-transform a result without some clue or knowledge as to the process applied in the first place. That, of course, is not the same as saying "lets get the drum pattern out of this mix"... you may well be able to do it. But you will NEVER (never ever) get the original multitrack out. Compression artefacts in the mix process and uncorrelated signal make that not only a statistical impossibility but a practical one too.

The burden of proof is the other way round. You might get some sort of excellent sounding multitrack - but you will never get the original. there is no mathematical process to tell us what two numbers added together to make 46. However, you could give me many examples that do....

20 + 26 = 46
19 + 27 = 46



But what two numbers did I add together originally. See the problem? You can not de-mix music to the original multitrack which is all anybody has ever said. You can, of course, de-interlace any manner of numerical sequence which may or may not have artistic value and indeed sound like a multitrack. But it will not be THE multitrack. Nor will it be what was originally recorded.

People often cite de-mixing as getting the eggs out of a cake. It is. You can't get the eggs from the cake for this simple reason - you can get the chemical compounds back out from the cake, but there are things missing: the two separate eggs you used, the cases you threw in the bin and how much of the water evaporated from the egg during cooking. Again - an entropic process. Information is lost - not just encoded in a decorrelated stream.

The whole problem isn't a problem at all and doesn't take a wizard to figure out how to separate elements out - it's trivial and not that interesting apart from as a computational exercise. All it requires is an expert system, an interpretive knowledge base and a statistical modelling algorithm to follow connected waveforms and their potentially associated harmonics. But it STILL won't be the multis!! It's a commercial holy grail, not a scientific one.

Just for reference; I've PM'ed you my background.


As for proving it? Im pretty sure the burden off proof lies with those who say it can be done - but you could certainly construct a recursive inductive proof showing why you cannot know what two numbers are added together to make 46. Similarly you could do the same from uncorrelated signals and why they cannot be extracted into their correlated groups; especially since a mix itself is not just the source multiple tracks added together.
Old 30th March 2017
  #23
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If you're ambitious and have the time, you can actually photoshop the audio in Adobe Audition. Just use the paint tool. I've done this for background sounds we caught while recording the audio and it's not a quick or easy process, but it can be done.
Old 30th March 2017
  #24
HSi
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HSi's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Could you not just get a copy of the soundtrack and invert the phase etc?
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