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My Windows 7 vs. Windows 8 DAWBench Results
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #91
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 ➡️
I wasn't going to get involved in this part of the thread, but I think I can help on a few things here.



They reboot that often? Admittedly, rebooting is not something *most* people do constantly. In Win7, an actual reboot was 3 clicks: Start: dropdown on shutdown button, click on reboot.

Now: open charms bar (mouse to bottom right corner or use Windows+C), then settings->Power

OR Windows+I to get settings and click power.

Or, on a tablet or laptop, use the soft power button

No need for a command file. It's not slower than the older versions, it's just different.

If you do reboot that often, one thing you should appreciate is just how fast Win8 reboots



Many people didn't like the change from Program Manager to the Start menu in Windows 95. Eventually it became the norm. Similarly, the Start page is not an efficiency problem, it's a familiarity problem.

Put your commonly used apps or desktop applications right at the left of the Start Page. Then open the start page with the mouse or by hitting the Windows key. If you don't see your app listed, open the app bar (swipe up, right click, or Windows+Z) and choose All Apps. Pin the ones you want to see all the time.

Bar far, most start menu users actually just open it up and then search for the app by typing the name. That still works: open the start page using one of the methods from above and just start typing. Voila: app search.

As for the task bar pinning: that's what it's there for. If you use a desktop application that often, definitely pin it to the task bar. My task bar in Win7 (on a 30" display) has like 20 things on it.

BTW, if you use multiple displays in Windows 8, the task bar can span the screens, so you could fit even more if you really wanted to.

I never (honestly, never) use Recent Docs so I don't have any info there.



There are plenty of examples of similar things in the past, most of which we've forgotton were new at the time: People needed to learn to right-click to get context menus. There was no on-screen help for that. People needed to learn to double-click. Again, no on-screen help or indicators for that.

People needed training to tell them how to pinch to zoom, swipe to navigate, etc. There's no on-screen help for that.

What I'm saying is these are new UI metaphors which will become the norm.

Don't forget, you can right-click at the bottom left corner to get additional power tools like System, device manager, computer management, command prompt, task manager, control panel, file explorer, search, run, and view your desktop)
Nice to see a voice of reason in the midst of all this Windows 8 hysteria.
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #92
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Psychlist1972's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT ➡️
Hey Pete,
I'm not ticked off , just venting..., I'm fighting a flu at the moemnt so I'll a little more.., hmmm, hypersensitive.. LOL
Few things suck more than that. Before I had kids, I was never sick. Now it's like living with Typhoid Mary and her little sister.

Quote:
The slow transition to 64 Bit has nothing in common with the qualms of the fundamental UI changes that M.S are trying to impose.
Right, but every other point did. I was just pointing out transition/inflection points. Maybe using the plug-in example was not particularly effective of me

Quote:
Windows 8 hasn't raised the bar with anything in regards to DAW's/Desktops.
Desktop/DAW stuff will end up depending on whether manufacturers use any of the new APIs, many of which were introduced in 7, but lay unused because of the XP user base. New Windows 8 desktop APIs build on that, and add better networking and new DirectX/DirectWrite APIs in addition to a bunch of other stuff that DAW developers will hopefully use to increase performance and capabilities. The improved multi-monitor support is great as well. I do hear you, though -- it's going to take DAW adoption of new features to make a difference to most people here.

Quote:
Sure, so leave Metro on the portables that can utilize the tactile surfaces and are designed specifically for the UI and have a Desktop version of Win8 available with the under bonnet improvements sans the appendage.
Let's chat on this next year after we see the first waves of hardware. I have my suspicions about what we'll see, but I could be completely wrong.

Quote:
And before you say thats not possible, I already have a custom patch utilizing 3 files from Win7 that returns the Win7 UI/Explorer/Task Manager and totally eradicates Metro , totally !!
Ok, but what if there's a cool Modern app you'd like to use? What if you get addicted to one on a tablet and also want to use it on your desktop? Until then, I guess you're fine. It's hard to predict the future, though.

Quote:
You are not hearing me, I hate the tile interface on the desktop , I will never see it as anything but what I have already outlined.

As noted, totally separate entities that will never be a viable professional option IMO.
I do hear you. Seriously.

I just don't get why folks have such a visceral reaction to the start page. It would be interesting to understand the psychology of it (I'm sure someone has studied it). The start page itself typically shows more info at a glance than the start menu did. It doesn't require navigating menus that fan out across the screen like XP did, and at a glance, the apps can tell you important stuff about what they're doing, what's new, etc. Or, you can turn that off and just use them like launch icons.

That all said, it's your opinion/reaction/experience, so I'm cool with that. I may not agree with it, but certainly doesn't invalidate it.

Quote:
All the Benchmarks are available for download, so nothing stopping you dipping your toe in yourself.. :-)
Yeah, I know. I've forwarded the info off to people who could do something actionable with it, but there's nothing be gained from me running benchmarks. As a MSFT employee, folks would automatically assume biased results from me in any case.

Pete
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #93
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 ➡️
Few things suck more than that. Before I had kids, I was never sick. Now it's like living with Typhoid Mary and her little sister.
I hear ya, 3 and 5 year old boys at my end, and they bring home all manners of gremlins after interacting with their peers.. :-(

Quote:
Desktop/DAW stuff will end up depending on whether manufacturers use any of the new APIs, many of which were introduced in 7, but lay unused because of the XP user base. New Windows 8 desktop APIs build on that, and add better networking and new DirectX/DirectWrite APIs in addition to a bunch of other stuff that DAW developers will hopefully use to increase performance and capabilities. The improved multi-monitor support is great as well. I do hear you, though -- it's going to take DAW adoption of new features to make a difference to most people here.
All Good, but none of the above requires Metro.. :-)

Quote:
I just don't get why folks have such a visceral reaction to the start page. It would be interesting to understand the psychology of it (I'm sure someone has studied it). The start page itself typically shows more info at a glance than the start menu did. It doesn't require navigating menus that fan out across the screen like XP did, and at a glance, the apps can tell you important stuff about what they're doing, what's new, etc. Or, you can turn that off and just use them like launch icons.
For me it also come down to aesthetics, I simply do not like the tiles, and if I need to use it is as a glorified launcher, I much prefer the options I have available now.

Quote:
Yeah, I know. I've forwarded the info off to people who could do something actionable with it.....
Cool


Quote:
...but there's nothing be gained from me running benchmarks. As a MSFT employee, folks would automatically assume biased results from me in any case.
Nahhh, you couldn't fludge the results anyway as the test sessions are in the public domain.

Anyhow,

I see that this has just turned into another cyclic debate over Metro instead of the intended focus, and to be honest I'm tired of it. From here on in I'll just stick to comparative performance , I'll leave the rest for those more interested in the UI.

Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #94
Lives for gear
 
Psychlist1972's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT ➡️
I see that this has just turned into another cyclic debate over Metro instead of the intended focus, and to be honest I'm tired of it. From here on in I'll just stick to comparative performance , I'll leave the rest for those more interested in the UI.
All good

Pete
Old 28th September 2012
  #95
Lives for gear
 
4damind's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The GUI will be fine and after some month people will not look back to Windows 7 and will become familiar with the new GUI paradigm (IMO).
Most important thing for us, how is the audio latency compared to Win7 and how is the overall audio performance. There are good Benchmarks by Cakewalk but it's of course more interesting to have some independent tests also with other DAWs like Cubase.

As far as I know the release date of Win8 is October 26th. Because the upgrade is low priced maybe that many users will update the next month.
Old 28th September 2012 | Show parent
  #96
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norbury brook's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
yes, as some one who's got used to OSX, various Linux OS's, Android, and windows I'm not that phazed by a small learning curve and new way if it turns out to offer performances in the long run for my DAW. As long as I can still access the file system and tweak away if I want then I'm happy, I feel this luxury will be removed from OSX in the not to distant future.

MC
Old 25th October 2012 | Show parent
  #97
Lives for gear
 
DaveE's Avatar
How are you guys liking the metro interface? They implemented it onto Xbox Live and I seriously hate it. I honestly can't fathom who dreamed that up and thought "hey this is a great idea!" Hoping the actual Win8 version is implemented better, but curious to see what more people think about it after prolonged use. What's especially irritating in the xbox version is that you can't even rearrange the tiles.
Old 25th October 2012 | Show parent
  #98
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT ➡️
Those results don't prove anything IMO, as I noted in an earlier post , they simply represent a performance meter metric that they use internally in development. The % variance is in the meter only , which may or may not have any correlation to the actual scaling performance in Real World application.

It all sounds very technical and convincing to some, but I read it and picked up very early on that unless the metric can be applied across multiple DAW's, it is of little value past hype.

Those same developers also claimed strong performance gains in Vista over XP , how did that pan out ?

I have also seen the Cake team post various claims of huge % improvements of multiprocessor x-scaling / low latency performance, which amounted to a hill of beans when placed comparatively against the other DAW's.

Lets see where the dust settles when SONAR is placed side by side against Cubendo/Reaper/StudioOne.

I've been using Sonar/CW since 1996 and I like the DAW a fair bit (I'm back on 8.5, though, as I have a modest machine and didn't buy into the rather whiffy promise that X1 would be more efficient)...

... but it's often seemed to me that CW pretty much always cranks out an optimistic report about whatever the upcoming Windows version is. Sometimes I think they like to keep the Beast of Redmond happy...
Old 25th October 2012
  #99
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jmcecil's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I moved my laptop to W8 and it was running terrible for audio until I turned off indexing and real time protection. Then it pretty much gives me exactly what I had before. Unfortunately I don't have an easy way to A/B to get exact counts. But, I do have a couple of Cubase 6.5 x64 based projects that were right on the borderline of running under W7, and they are still on the borderline .. neither better nor worse.

All very unscientific though. Sorry about that.
Old 25th October 2012 | Show parent
  #100
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➡️
... but it's often seemed to me that CW pretty much always cranks out an optimistic report about whatever the upcoming Windows version is. Sometimes I think they like to keep the Beast of Redmond happy...
You think....

Old 26th October 2012
  #101
Gear Addict
 
Goddard's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Yeah right. From the Sonar X2 system specs:

*Windows 8 support will be available through a free patch later this year

Hmm, wonder what that means...
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #102
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Timur Born's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcschild ➡️
you are talking about Vista.. which sucked until SP3
Ah, c'mon, be fair! Vista was fine starting from SP1 if your hardware drivers were solid. I got the very same audio performance out of XP, Vista and W7 and a close look revealed that W7 even uses slightly more RAM than Vista. :P
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #103
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timur Born ➡️
Ah, c'mon, be fair! Vista was fine starting from SP1 if your hardware drivers were solid...
Maybe so, but the horse had already bolted after the dog pile of the initial release. Whether they managed to polish the turd by SP1 or SP3 , doesn't really matter.

There was always a viable alternative in XP, much the same as now with Win7 over Win8.

This thread isn't about Vista Timur , that debate was done and dusted long ago , many of us were more than happy to have leap frogged it.
Old 26th October 2012
  #104
Lives for gear
 
Timur Born's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Sorry, for the off-topic side-remark on the side-remark.

I am reading the on-topic results with interest, of course, and am curious how the W8 turns out versus W7. On the OS X side Snow Leopard and Lion have their very own issues compared to Leopard and I am generally suspicious of seeing desktop operating systems prioritizing the "mobile fun" goal over the "need to get work done". But how much of W8 core has really changed since Vista/W7?

Interestingly I just clicked on a video on Microsoft's W8 website that is supposed to show me the Start screen. It showed slim people making appointments for surfing (as in hot weather in Sidney and going to the beach). Erm, yeah, that would be nice here, too...
Old 26th October 2012
  #105
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
My experience with Vista was that it moved a lot of system graphics to the graphics card six months before my Nvidia drivers were ready to handle that load. W7 had the benefit of the better drivers combined with better thread management and more use of RAM to speed up performance. W8 has the possibility of taking the latter two factors to the next level.
Old 26th October 2012
  #106
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TS-12's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Any improvement in Windows 8 from W7's terrible MIDI OUT Jitter?

https://gearspace.com/board/electron...-disaster.html
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #107
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timur Born ➡️
Sorry, for the off-topic side-remark on the side-remark.
No problem Timur .. :-)

Quote:
I am reading the on-topic results with interest, of course, and am curious how the W8 turns out versus W7. On the OS X side Snow Leopard and Lion have their very own issues compared to Leopard and I am generally suspicious of seeing desktop operating systems prioritizing the "mobile fun" goal over the "need to get work done". But how much of W8 core has really changed since Vista/W7?
I hear ya re the general lean of the latest O.S's being away from what we would prefer , but we are such a minority we wouldn't even register a blip on the radar. There was a fair amount of work done on the kernel of Win7 over Vista by Mark Russinovich , which just gave it an immediate better overall feel , add to that the drivers being far more mature and it all timed up nicely.

Still early days for Win8, but it hasn't brought anything positive to the table for DAW performance IMO, but it has thrown a few more curves with the altered FW stack. Win7 OEM is not being pulled thankfully , so I can leapfrog W8 if need be and hope M.S come to their senses .

Quote:
Interestingly I just clicked on a video on Microsoft's W8 website that is supposed to show me the Start screen. It showed slim people making appointments for surfing (as in hot weather in Sidney and going to the beach). Erm, yeah, that would be nice here, too...
Sign of the times... :-(

We were getting flooded via all forms of media for the Win8 launch this week , midnight store openings, etc, I can just picture the lemmings who went to the launches.

Old 26th October 2012
  #108
Lives for gear
 
Timur Born's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Gonna buy my 29 EUR upgrade now!

I hope it can somehow be installed cleanly on another disk for testing, which in combination with Bootcamp and keeping my Macbook Pro always unscrewed for exchanging drives may be quite some work. I read somewhere that latest EFI changes finally allow to boot Windows from external drives, but not sure yet if that includes my "early" 2011 MBP.

Concerning all the improvements by Mark Russinovich in W7 vs. Vista: While I am aware of these, in practice it just didn't matter here. Maybe that is because I only used 2 core (+HT) CPUs at that time. Hiring Mark was surely a smart move by Microsoft. Vista was the BIG under the hood revolution, W7 and now W8 are evolutions. Mark was working on the former two, but now works on Azure and in all the buzz about W8 I did not stumble over what happened internally (and didn't search myself yet). Looks to me that not much has changed in the background, while everything has changed on the visible front and how people interact with it.

One thing I noticed on the RME forum is that there already are workaround of getting the W7 "(legacy)" Firewire driver to install on W8, because people experience issues with the new FW stack (in W7 my LSI/Agere MBP FW port is perfectly fine with both stacks).
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #109
Lives for gear
 
Timur Born's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TS-12 ➡️
Any improvement in Windows 8 from W7's terrible MIDI OUT Jitter?

https://gearspace.com/board/electron...-disaster.html
I have yet to be convinced that there is a real W7 problem here. Most people seem to get confused by the mechanics behind MME and DirectMusic MIDI and even more so about how their MIDI interface driver and DAW software are dealing with that.

Average latency and jitter can be below 1 ms on both XP and Vista/W7, albeit the maximum deviation might have increased for some interfaces/drivers (also depending on how their implement the whole MME vs. DM thing).
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #110
Lives for gear
 
Solar's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychlist1972 ➡️
This thread got me to finally create an account here. I've been a lurker for a long time.

Without getting to any of the other stuff raised here, I'm curious if wireless was on during the tests?

If so, any chance of running the Win8 test again with wireless disabled? You can get a lot of latency if there are conflicts with that, and sometimes they don't show up until an OS reinstall.
DPC Latency Checker

This can be especially true if you have any apps actually using wireless during that time.

On my Windows 7 machine, I had that issue early on with the regular network adapter on my Gigabyte UD9 board. The impact is based in part on how the interrupts are hard-wired in the machine's board. Wireless tends to be an issue more often, especially on notebooks.

Pete
NOTE: I work for Microsoft, but participate here mainly in a personal capacity. I will, however, pass any relevant data on this topic back to the product teams.
Welcome on board @Pete. This is amazing to finally have someone working @microsoft product here on the largest world best music forum. I think although you're here as personal user but its a great thing cuz you'll be able to lookout for us Music Producer, musicians, mixer engineer and much so the Product team at MS can put some attention on tweaking things up as well for Pro music users.

Thanx for joining
Old 26th October 2012
  #111
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 5 years
so is the first post still valid? no new drivers / Updates etc?

~30-50& drop in performance huh thats bad - no wait... thats REALLY BAD.
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #112
Lives for gear
 
TS-12's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timur Born ➡️
I have yet to be convinced that there is a real W7 problem here. Most people seem to get confused by the mechanics behind MME and DirectMusic MIDI and even more so about how their MIDI interface driver and DAW software are dealing with that.

Average latency and jitter can be below 1 ms on both XP and Vista/W7, albeit the maximum deviation might have increased for some interfaces/drivers (also depending on how their implement the whole MME vs. DM thing).
MIDI interfaces that use "DirectMusic" ports are ok. But "WindowsMIDI"'s jitter is unacceptable under windows 7.
Old 26th October 2012
  #113
Lives for gear
 
Timur Born's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Last time I checked most MIDI interfaces out there don't support DirectMusic at all, even less so half of the DAW software out there (and Live's implementation is not something I'd use for testing these things).

There is no general MIDI jitter issues with Windows 7 here:

Babyface (USB) MME:

Message latency: 1.08 ms
Message jitter: 0.49 ms
Message max deviation: 2.46 ms

Multiface 2 (ExpressCard) MME:

Message latency: 0.95 ms
Message jitter: 0.47 ms
Message max deviation: 2.33 ms

My guess would be that you are using the default "Balanced" Windows power-profile instead of the "High Performance" one. Or your BIOS does something wrong.
Old 26th October 2012 | Show parent
  #114
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timur Born ➡️
Gonna buy my 29 EUR upgrade now!
Not even sure what the "upgrade" offers to be honest, if it allows a clean fresh install can you please drop back and confirm that.

Quote:
Looks to me that not much has changed in the background, while everything has changed on the visible front and how people interact with it.
There were reports of it feeling a lot snappier as a Vanilla install , but IMO it was simply because they pulled back on a lot of the crap Aero had imposed. I still wouldn't mind the updated kernel, if they had left the UI as is , which I can actually achieve with a few hacks and patches , but in the end, I had to ask myself why botehr. I hate the UI , as does 99% of the clients I have spoken to , so I am viewing it as a leap frog.

Quote:
One thing I noticed on the RME forum is that there already are workaround of getting the W7 "(legacy)" Firewire driver to install on W8, because people experience issues with the new FW stack (in W7 my LSI/Agere MBP FW port is perfectly fine with both stacks).
Thats an interesting one as the FF800 works perfectly in W8, however the FF400 is a basket case ( variation in the dedicated onboard TI chipset) unless a legacy mode driver can be used - which I use as default on Win7 anyway. The removal of the signed legacy driver in Win8 is going to be a significant curve for Win8 IMO. That work around is an absolute PITA as the system needs to be booted in an altered manner simply for the hacked in non signed driver not to be disabled. Who can be bothered for zero sum gain ? !!

I am yet to test the X Series interfaces , but on a recent adventure I had with them even on Win7 and an onboard non TI FW chipst on my audio notebooks , I am not placing any bets.. :-(

We won't mention the native USB3 minefield currently being navigated.

I Digress.

@ Gomfist,

Have a read thru and find my added tests . I couldn't confirm the results of the O.P, but I also couldn't confirm Cakewalks claims. In short there are numerous added variables involved depending on the audio interface/protocol being used. Joy.

Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #115
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
w8 upgrade

Felt kinda overconfident today and upgraded my w7 daw to w8.
I opted for a upgrade keeping all programs and settings, so no fresh install.
Setup is Ableton, two echo audiofires (no legacy firewire driver), two novation remotes and two motu midiexpress 128.
Everything worked fine, except the midi.
That started working after updating the chipset drivers.
Only tweak i had to make was to turn off the realtime protection for windows defender.

Last edited by sensing; 27th October 2012 at 10:52 PM.. Reason: fixed midi
Old 27th October 2012
  #116
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
I tested out Windows 8 (using upgrade) on the first beta. Using an Echo Gina PCI card, Cubase reported a significantly lower latency but I did get some dropouts when pushing my system by playing streaming piano samples very fast with sustain pedal. As I remember, getting all the DRM programs working was a pain. In the end, I put Windows 7 back in. I can't see the advantage of Win 8 in my DAW. Maybe in my laptop for security.
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #117
Lives for gear
 
loopy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➡️
I've been using Sonar/CW since 1996 and I like the DAW a fair bit (I'm back on 8.5, though, as I have a modest machine and didn't buy into the rather whiffy promise that X1 would be more efficient)...

... but it's often seemed to me that CW pretty much always cranks out an optimistic report about whatever the upcoming Windows version is. Sometimes I think they like to keep the Beast of Redmond happy...
As an old time Cake user myself, I've noticed that as well. Even so, Cake has the most experience under the Windows/DOS platform by far so I suppose they deserve some bragging rights.

My gut feeling though is they are joined at the hip with that company in Redmond.

BTW for those of you with little kids bringing home germs from school, trust me, it gets better. After a couple of years your immunity builds up because you and your wife have been exposed to all variations of germs and you will actually get less colds, flu etc.

Have patience.
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #118
Lives for gear
 
Timur Born's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT ➡️
Thats an interesting one as the FF800 works perfectly in W8, however the FF400 is a basket case ( variation in the dedicated onboard TI chipset) unless a legacy mode driver can be used - which I use as default on Win7 anyway.
Curious how I hear more and more about onboard TI chipsets causing troubles, while the later revision LSI/Agere ones seem to run rock solid and very high performing now. Doesn't matter here which FW driver I use for my MBP LSI/Agere, they all run perfectly well and either equal or even very slightly better performing than TI based ExpressCard FW cards.
Old 27th October 2012 | Show parent
  #119
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timur Born ➡️
Curious how I hear more and more about onboard TI chipsets causing troubles, while the later revision LSI/Agere ones seem to run rock solid and very high performing now. Doesn't matter here which FW driver I use for my MBP LSI/Agere, they all run perfectly well and either equal or even very slightly better performing than TI based ExpressCard FW cards.
Sorry Mate, you have misunderstood.

The TI controllers I'm referring to are not on the laptop/system , its the variation of the dedicated controller(s) used in the FF400 over the FF800. I have yet to encounter any issue using TI as a host controller on the systems. I suspect the manufacturers have connected the dots on the LSI/Agere controllers Apple are using now , but they did have their share of issues earlier on.

Old 27th October 2012
  #120
Lives for gear
 
Timur Born's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yes, I know about the LSI/Agere issues from earlier, that's why I wrote "curios", but should have written "ironically". In the past using TI based controllers was preferred, but I saw several cases where onboard TI controllers caused issues. Most of these are solved by going back to "legacy" drivers, but I had at least one case where that didn't provide the final solution either (switching from a FF 400 to a FF UC did).
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