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A good 88 full weighted key MIDI controller, with many velocity levels and USB?
Old 6th June 2013 | Show parent
  #91
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Muser's Avatar
 
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🎧 10 years
that should be interesting undertone
Old 6th June 2013 | Show parent
  #92
Tui
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser ➡️
yw Tui and thanks for the update. look forward to seeing what you find. maybe we should have a thread for it.
Yes, why don't you start one?

Here are my test results. I use a Roland RD-700SX fully weighted keyboard. Except for a few notes at the upper and lower ends, I managed to hit all velocity levels.

Old 6th June 2013
  #93
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🎧 5 years
Your wish has been fulfilled



Kawai VPC - A virtual piano controller from a real piano company.
Old 6th June 2013 | Show parent
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jswitch ➡️
Your wish has been fulfilled
Clearly no one has the same wishes. Where are the pitch and mod wheels?

Everyone seems to hold a piano touch in high regard, probably because most keyboard players are trained on the piano. And while I also love a good piano touch (I have a P250), I don't find it's an ideal all-around controller for playing synths or emulating sampled instrument playing styles. Some of the keyboard gymnastics I like to do are actually hard to play on a weighted keyboard (you guys have calluses just below your nails?). Aftertouch can be an expressive tool, but you shouldn't have to fracture your fingers to use it.

And while I've seen a few interesting candidates in this thread, I'm thrown off by the location of the pitch/mod wheels on many of them: I find it completely un-ergonomic to put them north of the keyboard, instead of their traditional position (you guys have a longer left arm?).

The hunt continues!....
Old 6th June 2013 | Show parent
  #95
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui ➡️
Yes, why don't you start one?

Here are my test results. I use a Roland RD-700SX fully weighted keyboard. Except for a few notes at the upper and lower ends, I managed to hit all velocity levels.

thanks Tui. only 4 skipped velocities. which might not be the system but just you skipped hitting them. btw if the OP objects to these tests I will set up a dedicated thread. do you know if it also sends note off velocities. there should be a midi analysis script in kontakt already.
Old 6th June 2013 | Show parent
  #96
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undertone ➡️
Clearly no one has the same wishes. Where are the pitch and mod wheels?
Indeed. There can't be many keyboardists who absolutely never need pitch and mod wheels.
Old 6th June 2013 | Show parent
  #97
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser ➡️
thanks Tui. only 4 skipped velocities. which might not be the system but just you skipped hitting them. btw if the OP objects to these tests I will set up a dedicated thread. do you know if it also sends note off velocities. there should be a midi analysis script in kontakt already.
This is a huge difference from the gaps in the VMK 188+. I chose the VMK 188+ because of its hammer action feel and the number of available controllers. I never thought I would have to worry about velocity. It makes me wonder about the other Studio Logic controllers.

Anyway thank you very much for the Kontakt script. When I'm back home I'm going to load this in Kontakt for future reference.

PS
Why Oberheim (Viscount) stopped producing the MC3000 is beyond me. It felt wonderful and had everything I needed. If CME had made the VX8 actually function as described in the manual they would have a winner too. It was beautiful, great keyboard action, plenty of controllers including motorized faders, and very solid at 75 pounds.
Old 6th June 2013 | Show parent
  #98
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🎧 10 years
yw gregg. what was wrong with the CME btw ? I do have a CME UF6 which I must admit I do like when all is said and done. although you really need to run them off a PSU to have them transmit aftertouch. I killed the 2 top keys but I tend to have a habit of doing that. but they still transmit aftertouch so I can use them as a silent aftertouch pressure source.

I'll get round to checking the velocity on it at some time. I wouldn't be surprised if they cheaped out. then again I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't. not sure which weighted unit I would like. probably a yamaha CP300 or if I wanted small and compact maybe those Korg SV1.

and yes the MC3000 did look like a bit of a powerhouse.
Old 7th June 2013 | Show parent
  #99
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser ➡️
yw gregg. what was wrong with the CME btw ?
The VX series was horrible. The UFs are very different.

If the VX series had worked like advertised and like in the manual I'm convinced they would be the #1 selling controller today. They were beautiful, red, great action, heavy, good buttons, nice display, and motorized faders.

But the problem is a lot of them didn't work or only worked partially. With ones that partially worked, there were problems such as garbled display, encoder memory issues etc. So many didn't work that they closed the CME forum because there was nothing but complaints. I chastised Sweetwater for even carrying the line, and after attempting to work out all my problems via Sweetwater, I sent it back to them...after a year!

They had very poor USA support. Firmware update promises never happened that were supposed to fix lots of stuff. Support from China was non-existant.
Old 7th June 2013
  #100
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TS-12's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
If you wldnt mind no usb, than i wld recommend peavey dpm c8. Other than that 88 key wokstations like motif, fantom, korg. But they are expensive. And i haven't played any 'controller only' keyboard with built in usb that has playable key feel. Its ironic what kind of horrible key feel modern midi controllers have, its rediculous, even unweighted ones
Old 7th June 2013
  #101
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🎧 10 years
I'm about to give up the hunt and get the new Arturia Keylab 61. At least it's solidly built and playable!

The only real and decent 88 boards we're going to find will be Nord Stage ($4k), Korg SV1 (a bit heavy action, but I think around $1500?), or the new Roland A-88 if you can stomach the small size, light weight, no controls, and the $1,000 for just keys (and pitch/mod...)

In the mean time... save the pennies for a Korg or Nord
Old 7th June 2013 | Show parent
  #102
Tui
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakrum ➡️

The only real and decent 88 boards we're going to find will be Nord Stage ($4k), Korg SV1 (a bit heavy action, but I think around $1500?), or the new Roland A-88 if you can stomach the small size, light weight, no controls, and the $1,000 for just keys (and pitch/mod...)
There are two Roland models I'd expect to be very nice as well: The RD-300NX and their current flagship, the RD-700NX.

I've been using a precursor, the RD-700SX, for several years and I'm extremely happy with it. Build quality is excellent and the software is very stable - not a single crash, ever.

At the time I bought it, the action was easily the best around, so I'd imagine the newer models are worth a look, too.
Old 7th June 2013 | Show parent
  #103
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🎧 10 years
Kawai VPC1, awesome
Old 7th June 2013
  #104
GS
 
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakrum ➡️
...The only real and decent 88 boards we're going to find will be Nord Stage ($4k), Korg SV1 (a bit heavy action, but I think around $1500?),

In the mean time... save the pennies for a Korg or Nord
Be very careful with the SV1 though.
It has a notoriously bad key bed.

Check it out yourself or Google it, you'll be surprised with what you read.

Graham

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
Old 7th June 2013 | Show parent
  #105
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud ➡️
The VX series was horrible. The UFs are very different.

If the VX series had worked like advertised and like in the manual I'm convinced they would be the #1 selling controller today.
you may well have been right. one big issue is using external PSU units. I think companies do it so it's easier to pass different countries regulation tests. even the UF reputation suffered because people didn't know they (had) to use the PSU. if they didn't they would get intermittent AT messages and it also wouldn't work. so you got a build up of complaints and people began to think the units were poor, when really they are pretty good. also the case is an extrusion so it's very rigid.

internet complaints likely killed their rep. they could recover if they fix certain things about the UF series imho and just keep pumping it out like Alesis tend to do with winner products. to release a flagship product like a VX and get it wrong is really not going to work these days. people can be expected to make any user mistake going, then they will write about it. the need for a PSU on the UF series being a case in point. I don't know if they altered the later series UF units, but the sequencer controls should (not) send midi clock. they should have them settable on a midi channel and use user definable midi notes probably the highest or lowest keys on channel 16 by default. I can see why they used midi clock and midi transport, but I don't think it's such a good idea. maybe if it were optional.

The SV-1 looks like it doesn't like to be stored stood on it's end. some different issues with Korg Kronos looks like too. though they look like they have addressed that now. I personally think manufactures should address those regular physical knocking sounds on keyboards. if it's not going to be part of the recording then best get rid of it. use a strip of Poron on the part is responsible for the sound. though Poron may well sap any energy used for springback.
Old 7th June 2013 | Show parent
  #106
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2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakrum ➡️
I'm about to give up the hunt and get the new Arturia Keylab 61. At least it's solidly built and playable!

The only real and decent 88 boards we're going to find will be Nord Stage ($4k), Korg SV1 (a bit heavy action, but I think around $1500?), or the new Roland A-88 if you can stomach the small size, light weight, no controls, and the $1,000 for just keys (and pitch/mod...)

In the mean time... save the pennies for a Korg or Nord
I've tried a number of synth-action controllers, and the Arturia is my favorite. It's very solid with plenty of knobs, sliders, and pads. However, I have little use for their software and would like to see them sell the controller separately. I bought a 49 and would like to move into a 61 or better.

However, it is definitely not a full-weighted, 88-key controller.
Old 8th June 2013 | Show parent
  #107
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🎧 15 years
It has been posted before...here is the Studio Logic VMK 188plus.

I'm continually editing velocities in the louder ranges after recording in midi.
Attached Thumbnails
A good 88 full weighted key MIDI controller, with many velocity levels and USB?-velocity.gif  
Old 8th June 2013 | Show parent
  #108
Tui
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud ➡️
It has been posted before...here is the Studio Logic VMK 188plus.
That's not very good at all, considering the keyboard isn't cheap either.
Old 8th June 2013 | Show parent
  #109
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui ➡️
That's not very good at all, considering the keyboard isn't cheap either.
Horrible Tui. I'm still holding out for an Oberheim MC3000. I wish very much the CME VX8 would have functioned as intended because it was a dream. For some unknown reason CME seemed to ignore it and focus on the UF series.

I purchased the VMK a few years ago because I thought it had everything I wanted. Good hammer action, aftertouch, plenty of controllers.....Of course I didn't think I had to consider velocity.

I'm hoping to see more responses from those who have Kontakt.
Old 8th June 2013 | Show parent
  #110
Sky
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by undertone ➡️
Clearly no one has the same wishes. Where are the pitch and mod wheels?

Everyone seems to hold a piano touch in high regard, probably because most keyboard players are trained on the piano. And while I also love a good piano touch (I have a P250), I don't find it's an ideal all-around controller for playing synths or emulating sampled instrument playing styles. Some of the keyboard gymnastics I like to do are actually hard to play on a weighted keyboard (you guys have calluses just below your nails?). Aftertouch can be an expressive tool, but you shouldn't have to fracture your fingers to use it.

And while I've seen a few interesting candidates in this thread, I'm thrown off by the location of the pitch/mod wheels on many of them: I find it completely un-ergonomic to put them north of the keyboard, instead of their traditional position (you guys have a longer left arm?).

The hunt continues!....
"Keyboard player" and "piano player" are two distinct roles imho. Everything you're saying about the ultimate keyboard controller is valid (e.g. wheels and AT). Likewise the new Kawai VPC1 and some other weighted controllers are perfect for piano playing, where wheels and AT are simply not a requirement. The best solution for someone who plays both is to have one of each. VPC1 plus something like Kurzweil PC3K6 could be a nice combination.

Sky
Old 8th June 2013 | Show parent
  #111
Tui
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky ➡️
Kurzweil PC3K6
At the Sweetwater site they have a demo video and I just had a listen. The piano sounds incredible, considering it's derived from only a few Mbs of samples...

Kurzweil, eh. They still know how to pull it off.
Old 9th June 2013 | Show parent
  #112
Sky
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui ➡️
At the Sweetwater site they have a demo video and I just had a listen. The piano sounds incredible, considering it's derived from only a few Mbs of samples...

Kurzweil, eh. They still know how to pull it off.
I like the Kurzweil sounds okay but have cited this keyboard really as a synth-action MIDI controller alongside a dedicated piano controller. It is deep in terms of zones, layers, AT, response shaping, control mapping, etc. The action is Fatar TP9 which is among the best for synths. Having decent sounds built in is certainly great for anyone needing a performance synth and not just a (pricey) VI controller for the studio.

Sky
Old 9th June 2013 | Show parent
  #113
Tui
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky ➡️
The action is Fatar TP9
So, Fatar still provide actions for other brands. I was wondering about that. I think my old Ensoniq KT-88 might have had a Fatar action, too.

Do they also make actions for Roland or Casio, for example?
Old 9th June 2013
  #114
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by _Ludovico ➡️
I'm looking at a few midi keyboard controllers, trying to find a good 88 key, fully weighted piano type, with may levels of velocity (more than 3 or 5 like many keyboards i've seen) for realism and preferably USB instead of regular MIDI cables.

I don't mind all the toys it's only for the studio in a recording situation, and I want to use it with software pianos and synth.

I don't really want to spend 2k$ either... if possible. The perfect thing would cost less than 1k actually.
Looks like the OP bailed on this thread 15 months ago (and is mainly discussing guitars now), but I'll toss in a suggestion for the Yamaha CP33. It's a seriously bombproof stage piano with 88 graded piano keys, USB, Pitch Bend/Modulation wheels, and included sustain pedal. List price $999, wait to get it with one of those 15% coupons that appears now and then. Yamaha's been making them since 2007 and they're built solid for gigging.
Old 9th June 2013 | Show parent
  #115
Sky
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui ➡️
So, Fatar still provide actions for other brands. I was wondering about that. I think my old Ensoniq KT-88 might have had a Fatar action, too.

Do they also make actions for Roland or Casio, for example?
I once found a list (via Google search) of synths reportedly using Fatar keybeds. Kurzweil is unique in that they specify which Fatar action is used for individual products on their website.

Sky
Old 10th June 2013 | Show parent
  #116
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sky ➡️
I once found a list (via Google search) of synths reportedly using Fatar keybeds. Kurzweil is unique in that they specify which Fatar action is used for individual products on their website.
Sky
Someone's selling a Kurzweill PC2X locally. Anyone have any personal experience with that keyboard? Comments I've found seem to be favorable. I'm curious to know how well it fares based on this thread's discussions.
Old 13th July 2013 | Show parent
  #117
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by greggybud ➡️
It has been posted before...here is the Studio Logic VMK 188plus.

I'm continually editing velocities in the louder ranges after recording in midi.
I just put the wallwart mounted internally in my CME UF6 and re pasted the carbon on the rubber pads. so I thought I would give it a test, even though it's not weighted. I ran through the 4 VCurves in the unit. one of them looks similar to yours. on the CME, VCurve 2 looks like linear. any curves which are not linear will all look like they are missing velocities. really it's because it's a curve, and any curve will mult up on velocities. the Kontakt script won't show the curve as such. it will just look like missed velocities. which is essentially what any midi curve is.

I would say that, how good the actual keybed (is) will reveal itself in how much accuracy you can impose within a (range) of a linear curve. so I would say the CME's bed is not that great because the scale is filled in somewhat randomly. e.g. it eventually fills up, but a good deal of it fills up beyond my physical control on the keybed.

if you can get a linear curve from your VMK and the keybed is good, then it should be what you could call a good keybed. manufacturers might use different curves to make certain models perform seemingly poorly. that could just be a function of the curve though. it would steer away from the real quality of the keyboard, if they avoided a linear velocity map on purpose.
Attached Thumbnails
A good 88 full weighted key MIDI controller, with many velocity levels and USB?-cme-uf6.jpg  
Old 13th July 2013 | Show parent
  #118
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loopy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui ➡️
So, Fatar still provide actions for other brands. I was wondering about that. I think my old Ensoniq KT-88 might have had a Fatar action, too.

Do they also make actions for Roland or Casio, for example?
The Ensoniq KS-32 had a Fatar action for certain.
I've also owned a TS-12 and a Fatar 1100.
All fell apart.

I'm pretty sure the KT-88 had Fatar actions as well.

They were great actions HOWEVER the reliability was horrible.
The plastic holding the weights would crack and the weights fall out.

At the time I was traveling with a KS-32 76 key fully weighted keyboard and got real good at repairing it on the road.

For this reason I will never, I repeat NEVER purchase ANYTHING with a Fatar action.

Roland makes their own action BTW last time I checked.

I have an RD-700 and an RD -150. Both get heavy use and neither has ever had a problem.
Old 7th January 2014 | Show parent
  #119
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muser ➡️
if you have kontakt you can put in this velocity script and test the velocity over midi. a cheaped out keyboard velocity would look like this.



this is the script link.
http://nilsliberg.se/ksp/scripts/Velocity_Test.zip

then anyone who can use it can take a pic, name the board and post the result.
not sure about anyone else but if I paid for a weighted system I'd want the full 128 range.
might make manufacturers think twice about such a poor design.

I guess the script should also be easy to change to test ctrl, mod and pitch wheels too.

any curve, other than linear would result in the doubling up of (some) values on any unit which transmits the full 128. only linear can obtain 128 discrete values. but it still can be very useful to have different velocity scale curves.
Muser,

I installed the script successfully but cannot get it to show any velocities when I play my controller. What am I doing wrong? Any specific settings I need to do?

Thanks
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