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Audio Interface - Low Latency Performance Data Base
Old 10th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5431
Lives for gear
 
norbury brook's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon ➡️
RME RayDat PCIe card was possibly the best investment in computer audio that I've ever made.
I've just bought one and it's pretty spectacular performance wise.

The Ferrofish is also a real eye opener , it just works and sounds great

M
Old 11th November 2022
  #5432
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Copied from the thread: MacOS 13 Ventura: share your experiences

TB audio is kinda « dead » at this point if I understand correctly (chip shortage): MacOS 13 Ventura: share your experiences

**Please feel free to correct me if the info is wrong…
Old 15th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5433
Lives for gear
 
papawise's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
RTL on RME HDSPe RayDat + Ferrofish

Guys, since we are discussing this.
Can the RME users inform your personal Round Trip Latency on Windows?

I'm not getting the best values as I could, so I'm trying to detect why.
I believe I should get much better performance with the gear I have.

Intel i9 12900K + SSD NVMe Samsung Pro 980 + DDR5 16GB 4800ghz
RME HDSPe RayDat + Ferrofish A16 AD/DA
Windows 10 (21H2)

RTL utility:
without AD/DA conversion, just loopback:
128 samples / 48Khz : 6.042 ms
64 samples / 48Khz : 3.375 ms

with AD/DA conversion added:
128 samples / 48Khz = 7.708 ms
64 samples / 48Khz = 5.042 ms

so, let's say (7.708 ms) is the RTL for my usual configuration (48K + 128 samples)
I expect around 3, 4 ms with the setup I have and I know many of RME PCIe users get there, but don't know how or why.

Thanks in advance.
Old 16th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5434
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by papawise ➡️
Guys, since we are discussing this.
Can the RME users inform your personal Round Trip Latency on Windows?

I'm not getting the best values as I could, so I'm trying to detect why.
I believe I should get much better performance with the gear I have.
There are a whole stack of comparative results on the first post , Top 20 listed in a chart, all in 44.1 but you can amend to suit.

Read in Here

Full Database Results : Here

Your results look within range taking into account the 1.7 ms Ferrofish AD/DA RTL latency being measured.

Quote:
so, let's say (7.708 ms) is the RTL for my usual configuration (48K + 128 samples)
I expect around 3, 4 ms with the setup I have and I know many of RME PCIe users get there, but don't know how or why.
No way you will get 3-4ms RTL @ 128 samples, the baseline reference is the AIO Pro which delivers 6.8ms @ 44.1, the HDSPe AES/ADI-8QS with 28 samples RTL on the ADI-8 delivers 7.3ms @ 44.1

Old 18th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5435
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT ➡️
RME has recently EOL'ed the UFX+
How do you know this? Pricing change? Dealer notice? Inside tip from Martin?

I figured a UFX lineup refresh was due sometime in the next year or so based on the previous release timings.
Does this mean it's just around the corner?

Predictions?
FS clock, obviously.
Requisite converter bump (ho hum) and move away from AKM.
Probably also marginally improved preamps ().
Modular network IO? That'd be something.
Dedicated loopback channels? YES PLEASE.
Maybe more powerful DSP? Onboard S-Gear amp models? A guy can dream.

Last edited by Piyono; 18th November 2022 at 08:37 PM..
Old 18th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5436
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piyono ➡️
How do you know this? Pricing change? Dealer notice? Inside tip from Martin?
Who's Martin, did you mean Matthias ?

I had an official dealer notice a few months back , Matthias Carstens has also posted publicly at the RME forum that due to the supply issues with the TB controllers that the TB line has been EOL'ed. ( Can't find the thread now )

Edit : RME Thread Here ( Thanks locust_tree )

No idea re updated products, but I suspect with the ongoing chip shortages, it won't be any time soon.


Last edited by TAFKAT; 18th November 2022 at 09:58 PM..
Old 18th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5437
Gear Addict
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by brousseau6933 ➡️
Copied from the thread: MacOS 13 Ventura: share your experiences

TB audio is kinda « dead » at this point if I understand correctly (chip shortage): MacOS 13 Ventura: share your experiences

**Please feel free to correct me if the info is wrong…
I have heard this and it does seem correct, however someone in the thread you linked said

Quote:
Their USB performance is so good that it just doesn´t matter.
and for evidence they linked back to page 1 of this thread. I’m not really seeing that being the case; Quantum still seems to be putting up the best numbers. Is any USB interface today capable of 1.5-1 ms RTL?
Old 18th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5438
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by locust_tree ➡️
and for evidence they linked back to page 1 of this thread. I’m not really seeing that being the case; Quantum still seems to be putting up the best numbers. Is any USB interface today capable of 1.5-1 ms RTL?
Quantum are EOL as well, grab them while you can.

"I/O and RTL is only 1/2 the equation, the other other 1/2 which is equally if not more important, is efficiency and stability at the respective latencies"

* I need to put that in my signature I have repeated it so many times over the years, LOL !

Quantum performance is great, but pushing to those lower latencies was at the expense of efficiency. That is why it isn't the top rated as it didn't perform as well as those rated above it at respective latencies, even tho they had higher delivered I/O and RTL.

Its a fine balancing act :-)

Re any USB interface ( RME ) achieving 1.5ms RTL, not @ 44/48. The question could then be, how many would require to ?

Old 18th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5439
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT ➡️
Quantum are EOL as well, grab them while you can.

"I/O and RTL is only 1/2 the equation, the other other 1/2 which is equally if not more important, is efficiency and stability at the respective latencies"

* I need to put that in my signature I have repeated it so many times over the years, LOL !

Quantum performance is great, but pushing to those lower latencies was at the expense of efficiency. That is why it isn't the top rated as it didn't perform as well as those rated above it at respective latencies, even tho they had higher delivered I/O and RTL.

Its a fine balancing act :-)

Re any USB interface ( RME ) achieving 1.5ms RTL, not @ 44/48. The question could then be, how many would require to ?

Just to say: agreed and well said.

I have a 2626 but I am an hobbyist and don’t push my system/DAW/CPU/Driver to the limit so I can track at 3-4 ms with it. I think I am at 64 in Studio One/Mojave…

I would be quite curious to know if I am able to guess the difference between 2 and 4-5 ms « personally »!
Old 19th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5440
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by papawise ➡️
Guys, since we are discussing this.
Can the RME users inform your personal Round Trip Latency on Windows?

I'm not getting the best values as I could, so I'm trying to detect why.
I believe I should get much better performance with the gear I have.

Intel i9 12900K + SSD NVMe Samsung Pro 980 + DDR5 16GB 4800ghz
RME HDSPe RayDat + Ferrofish A16 AD/DA
Windows 10 (21H2)

RTL utility:
without AD/DA conversion, just loopback:
128 samples / 48Khz : 6.042 ms
64 samples / 48Khz : 3.375 ms

with AD/DA conversion added:
128 samples / 48Khz = 7.708 ms
64 samples / 48Khz = 5.042 ms

so, let's say (7.708 ms) is the RTL for my usual configuration (48K + 128 samples)
I expect around 3, 4 ms with the setup I have and I know many of RME PCIe users get there, but don't know how or why.

Thanks in advance.
that looks about right. I leave it at 64 samples and and get 3.4 ms, fast enough that I can't feel it shredding on an amp sim.
Old 19th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5441
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brousseau6933 ➡️
Just to say: agreed and well said.

I have a 2626 but I am an hobbyist and don’t push my system/DAW/CPU/Driver to the limit so I can track at 3-4 ms with it. I think I am at 64 in Studio One/Mojave…

I would be quite curious to know if I am able to guess the difference between 2 and 4-5 ms « personally »!
Zoom UAC-2. Search it in the post. I swear by it.
Vinn explained why he didn't test it though.
Audio quality is not at the same level as RME but suuuuper decent.
Old 19th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5442
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullo ➡️
Zoom UAC-2. Search it in the post. I swear by it.
Vinn explained why he didn't test it though.
Audio quality is not at the same level as RME but suuuuper decent.
Briefly tested one… on my Hackintosh and it didn’t worked well at low latency on the USB3 ports. I should had try it on the USB2 ports but decided to return it… It was three or four years ago.

Now, is it because of MacOS (I was on Sierra at this point) or the whole Hackintosh thing, dunno?

The 2626 is on my « new » (Gigabyte Z390 Designare, i7 9700K) Hackintosh and it works like on a real Mac at latencies that are comparable to my PCI days (Echo Mia, AP2496).
Old 19th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5443
Gear Addict
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT ➡️
Quantum are EOL as well, grab them while you can.

"I/O and RTL is only 1/2 the equation, the other other 1/2 which is equally if not more important, is efficiency and stability at the respective latencies"

* I need to put that in my signature I have repeated it so many times over the years, LOL !

Quantum performance is great, but pushing to those lower latencies was at the expense of efficiency. That is why it isn't the top rated as it didn't perform as well as those rated above it at respective latencies, even tho they had higher delivered I/O and RTL.

Its a fine balancing act :-)

Re any USB interface ( RME ) achieving 1.5ms RTL, not @ 44/48. The question could then be, how many would require to ?

Thanks for the detailed reply. Looking at the performance chart it does look like nearly every interface that outperformed Quantum on efficiency is either TB or PCI, and for the most part they are between 2x and 4x the price. So it’s a pretty clear cut choice for me especially since the Quantum rear panel is jack-for-jack almost exactly the same as the 828mk3 Hybrid it’s replacing. I ordered a Quantum today as well as the necessary TB2 pci card for my new PC (it is a TB-capable motherboard; Dell Precision T7910).

As far as whether latencies in the 1-2ms range are necessary or desirable, that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms, but I will say that I still occasionally work with clients who are extraordinarily sensitive to timing and pitch discrepancies, and I want them to have the best experience possible.
Old 19th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5444
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by locust_tree ➡️
Thanks for the detailed reply. Looking at the performance chart it does look like nearly every interface that outperformed Quantum on efficiency is either TB or PCI, and for the most part they are between 2x and 4x the price. So it’s a pretty clear cut choice for me especially since the Quantum rear panel is jack-for-jack almost exactly the same as the 828mk3 Hybrid it’s replacing. I ordered a Quantum today as well as the necessary TB2 pci card for my new PC (it is a TB-capable motherboard; Dell Precision T7910).

As far as whether latencies in the 1-2ms range are necessary or desirable, that’s a whole ‘nother can of worms, but I will say that I still occasionally work with clients who are extraordinarily sensitive to timing and pitch discrepancies, and I want them to have the best experience possible.
A 2626 or the original one?

**Edit: TB2 card so I can answer myself, the original .
Old 20th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5445
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brousseau6933 ➡️
Briefly tested one… on my Hackintosh and it didn’t worked well at low latency on the USB3 ports. I should had try it on the USB2 ports but decided to return it… It was three or four years ago.

Now, is it because of MacOS (I was on Sierra at this point) or the whole Hackintosh thing, dunno?

The 2626 is on my « new » (Gigabyte Z390 Designare, i7 9700K) Hackintosh and it works like on a real Mac at latencies that are comparable to my PCI days (Echo Mia, AP2496).
The specs state it is only compatible with Intel USB chipsets. I'm running windows, never tried it on Mac.
Old 20th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5446
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bullo ➡️
The specs state it is only compatible with Intel USB chipsets. I'm running windows, never tried it on Mac.
It was an Intel Z97 chipset…
Old 20th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5447
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT ➡️
Who's Martin, did you mean Matthias ?
Yes, I meant Matthias. I know his name. Dunno why I typed "Martin". Might be all that crack I smoke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT ➡️
I had an official dealer notice a few months back , Matthias Carstens has also posted publicly at the RME forum that due to the supply issues with the TB controllers that the TB line has been EOL'ed. ( Can't find the thread now )
Edit : RME Thread Here ( Thanks locust_tree )
Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT ➡️
No idea re updated products, but I suspect with the ongoing chip shortages, it won't be any time soon.
The situation continues to suck.
Old 20th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5448
Gear Addict
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by brousseau6933 ➡️
A 2626 or the original one?

**Edit: TB2 card so I can answer myself, the original .
Correct, the original Quantum. I could have run the 2626 with a TB3 to TB2 adapter but I have a fairly busy rack and can’t stand interfaces with lots of front panel XLRs.

I have high hopes for this. The benchmark for me has always been Pro Tools HD / HDX systems. They were in every serious studio when I was starting out and it does frustrate me that, some 20 years on, so many interfaces are still in the shadow of those dinosaurs regarding RTL performance and integration with the DAW. I saw TB as the first real glimmer of hope in that regard, and now that’s EOL as well.
Old 22nd November 2022 | Show parent
  #5449
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
hi,
because I want some external HW effects on a send bus and need to make sure that they are REALLY running in parallel (sample accurate), I measured with RTL utility.

Setup is Win10 and a RME UFX+ over TB and 2 Ferrofish A32 via MADI in serial with a buffer size of 256 samples / 44.1khz.

RTL Utility measures a
a) rtl of 534 for MADI 1 to MADI1 and the same for
b) MADI 33 to MADI 33. ALSO the same for
c) analog 1 to 1 (so without the Ferrofishs and pure RME).
So 22 samples more than the buffer.
But REPORTED RTL is 561???

Questions:
1. can I use the loopback function in TotalMix (because I am too lazy to crawl behind the racks)? Or do I really need to use a physical cable?
2. IMHO a, b, vs c should be different, because c is without the additional latency due to the Ferrofish MADI connection. Ferrofish stated (when I asked them) that the total additional latency when using to A32 with MADI in serial, should be 2 samples for wordclock sync.
3. Why the difference between measured and reported? Or where do the additional 20 samples come from?
4. Switching buffer size to 64 results in 150 measured vs 177 reported (so 22 samples again)

EDIT:
Testing was done, because first trying in real life today with Ableton Live was with mixed results.
Old 23rd November 2022 | Show parent
  #5450
Lives for gear
 
norbury brook's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by markusschloesser ➡️
hi,
because I want some external HW effects on a send bus and need to make sure that they are REALLY running in parallel (sample accurate), I measured with RTL utility.

Setup is Win10 and a RME UFX+ over TB and 2 Ferrofish A32 via MADI in serial with a buffer size of 256 samples / 44.1khz.

RTL Utility measures a
a) rtl of 534 for MADI 1 to MADI1 and the same for
b) MADI 33 to MADI 33. ALSO the same for
c) analog 1 to 1 (so without the Ferrofishs and pure RME).
So 22 samples more than the buffer.
But REPORTED RTL is 561???

Questions:
1. can I use the loopback function in TotalMix (because I am too lazy to crawl behind the racks)? Or do I really need to use a physical cable?
2. IMHO a, b, vs c should be different, because c is without the additional latency due to the Ferrofish MADI connection. Ferrofish stated (when I asked them) that the total additional latency when using to A32 with MADI in serial, should be 2 samples for wordclock sync.
3. Why the difference between measured and reported? Or where do the additional 20 samples come from?
4. Switching buffer size to 64 results in 150 measured vs 177 reported (so 22 samples again)

EDIT:
Testing was done, because first trying in real life today with Ableton Live was with mixed results.
I have a RAYDAT and a Ferrofish and have all my hardware wired into the ferro fish.

I just use Reainsert in reaper and save each one as an FX template so i can add the hardware anywhere I like. I generally have them set up @64 samples which takes me to all but the enormous mixes by default but I can always 'ping' to get whatever PDC is needed if I change buffer size. Reverb is the only one that takes more time as I have to send only the dry signal IO to get the correct PDC. I suppose I could set up pre sets for common buffers

Totally sample accurate.


M
Old 23rd November 2022 | Show parent
  #5451
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook ➡️
I have a RAYDAT and a Ferrofish and have all my hardware wired into the ferro fish.

I just use Reainsert in reaper and save each one as an FX template so i can add the hardware anywhere I like. I generally have them set up @64 samples which takes me to all but the enormous mixes by default but I can always 'ping' to get whatever PDC is needed if I change buffer size. Reverb is the only one that takes more time as I have to send only the dry signal IO to get the correct PDC. I suppose I could set up pre sets for common buffers

Totally sample accurate.


M
Thanks for that! 😊
Yeah I am really jealous of the ping feature that reaper has. Maybe I'll try with a demo version of it, just for measurements sake.
Nomal operation is with 64 samples, only for mixdown and mastering I'll switch to 256 (still on AMD 3950x).
But it seems it does not matter anyway because the 20 additional samples "stay".
What does reaper's ping report as RTL for your setup?

Btw I also save all the externals as presets, especially since I got nearly all of the wesaudio stuff and have the "external effect" from Ableton grouped with the remote control vst plugin. So once I know the exact latency, I can then save that in the preset.
Old 24th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5452
Lives for gear
 
79adam79's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT ➡️
There are 2 Apollo Twin's listed , one is the original Windows only USB version, the 2nd is the Twin Mk II Thunderbolt unit

The later is now superseded with the Twin X.

There have been some end user reports of worse performance of late, so UA's drivers on Windows at least seem to be a moving target.

Are any of them the regular Apollo (rack mount size)? I have the 1st gen Silverface and it has less than desirable latency.
Old 24th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5453
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 79adam79 ➡️
Are any of them the regular Apollo (rack mount size)? I have the 1st gen Silverface and it has less than desirable latency.
They all use a Universal driver, performance will be consistent across all the range.

According to some recent reports after I finalised testing, performance has shifted away from LLP, so not overly surprised you are seeing higher latency.

Old 27th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5454
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAFKAT ➡️
Full Database List : Here
Vin, would you mind putting a link to this and future PDFs on the DAWBench website? It would make it easier to find in the future.
Old 28th November 2022 | Show parent
  #5455
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piyono ➡️
Vin, would you mind putting a link to this and future PDFs on the DAWBench website? It would make it easier to find in the future.
On the to do list with some website updates scheduled for next year :-)


Last edited by TAFKAT; 28th November 2022 at 03:29 AM..
Old 6th December 2022 | Show parent
  #5456
Gear Head
 
Any data on the Focusrite Pro 40?
Old 6th December 2022 | Show parent
  #5457
Lives for gear
 
TAFKAT's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicMethod ➡️
Any data on the Focusrite Pro 40?
Refer to the Saffire Pro 24 results, same unified version of the driver, based on Dice V4.*

Full Database List : Here

Old 6th December 2022 | Show parent
  #5458
Gear Head
 
[QUOTE=TAFKAT;16290748]Refer to the Saffire Pro 24 results, same unified version of the driver, based on Dice V4.*

Full Database List : Here

Thank you. That was my running assumption, but since we are dealing with facts and verifiable data I thought I would ask.

Good work and very much appreciated.
Old 7th December 2022
  #5459
Gear Addict
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Vin, just wanted to say thank you for creating such an incredible resource. I have been trying for 15 years to convince myself that I was happy with 8ms RTL and paging back and forth between DAWs and low latency mixer apps. Your data and this thread gave me the final push to say “no more” and get a Quantum and it is absolutely killer.
Old 8th December 2022 | Show parent
  #5460
Here for the gear
 
MixToTape's Avatar
 
I'm in the UK (Cheshire) and have an immaculate Quantum 2 boxed up and unused in ages, as I upgraded to the full Quantum.

It's available if anyone is interested please send me a PM before I put it on an auction site.

Sad to hear the Quantum line is coming to the end. I hope PreSonus under Fender continue to support it and Studio One for the foreseeable. I'm running on a Mac Pro 6,1 and despite the computers age (nearly a decade!! wow) it still delivers, I find it a very slick combo.

Do have a silly issue with Universal Control not seeing the Quantum on power cycle until the Mac is rebooted. Not a biggie, but if anyone knows how to resolve that, please do chime in.
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