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The "today we build our studio pc" thread
Old 22 hours ago | Show parent
  #14881
Lives for gear
 
Pictus's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piyono ➡️
Right, well that's why I'm going to buy an RME, and that's why I'm building a new DAW. The PC I've been using for music for the last 3.5 years (ThinkPad P50 20EN) is absolutely riddled with DPC gremlins and there's no way around it. It's been a bit of a nightmare to record with this machine, which was fine because I wasn't doing so much music.
How to kill DPC gremlins here.

Quote:
Thermal throttling? What's that?
IF the CPU or the motherboard VRM got too hot, the system will slow down to avoid damage.
Old 21 hours ago | Show parent
  #14882
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relevator ➡️
incorrect, Reaper does have a 'dual buffer' scheme, much better than Cubase, or much better, quite impressive. yes, much better, even.
so with unarmed tracks in Reaper... well CPU use, and sample buffer fill goes way, way, way, way down.

not going in to the technical details, or proof.. because it is already out there. it is quite known that Reaper, with this 'trick', can perform excellent, again quite impressive. this of course not true, but for fun: your CPU will almost go to sleep when playing an amount of tracks, with VSTi and VST FX.... and MPE..|

EDIT: some strange project in Reaper; 3 VSTi, not that heavy stuff, 3 x Rob Papen; Punch 2, Vecto and Blue II.
armed:

- RT CPU (Real Time CPU) about 12%-18%, buffer fill; 2.19 - 2.42

unarmed:
- RT CPU 0.1 %, buffer fill: 0.02ms.........

Interesting, I don't get those results the last I tested it (few months ago). Is it an option that has to be turned on somewhere?

I've been seeing these types of posts forever-

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=240735
Old 20 hours ago | Show parent
  #14883
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piyono ➡️
I want RTL as low as it can go. ~3ms would be ideal.
Cool, make sure that if you're using a 3rd party converter with an RME interface, that the converter itself is low inherent latency. I'm using RME HDSPe MADI in a TB3 enc and Ferrofish Pulse 16DX or A32 Dante and very happy with that combo...plenty of other good options too, but some converters have more RTL than others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piyono ➡️
Thermal throttling? What's that? https://youtu.be/27Jg0Qa6mts
Maybe throttling isn't the right word, because it's more of a 'loss of turbo boost'. What I see with my 7980xe rigs as well as a 8800k is that low buffer performance is inconsistent- IE I can't just leave the buffer set to 32 at all times, even with essentially the same load. It will work without errors for a while and then at some point start to have them. Watching power widget, while overall die temp stays steady, at some point it stops turbo boosting as much. You can see it just dropping the speed down, and then an error or glitch. But, I tried fixed overclocks (all cores and just some) and it doesn't fix the problem.

The 7980xe, 8800k and 10850k are all 14nm processors. For all those years that intel got stuck with their fab, TSMC didn't. It seems clear to me that intel needs to fix their fab problems more than they need trickery like big.LITTLE or another ++++++++++++++ node.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piyono ➡️
More concerning is that Apple is putting out 75% of the performance for 12.5% of the TDP. What happens when they release a 65W part?
I would say more exciting than concerning! But I tested M1 vs 5950x and in single-core at 32 samples the M1 is more like 55% of the 5950x (7 instances FF pro-R vs 13). The M1 offers stunning multi-threaded performance, which is great for composers working at the 256 buffer, but it's got a lot of ground to cover to catch the 5950x for low buffer/latency- and Zen 4 is coming with likely near double performance to Zen 3...

AS is jaw-dropping for a laptop/silent computer...I have an AC controlled machine room and top tier performance is my priority.

But also, keep in mind that power usage to processor performance is not linear, and there is still a ~5.x ghz barrier they all seem to hit. For the current firestorm cores to rival Zen 3 cores at 32 samples we would need to see clock speeds of ~6ghz. That's not likely, they will likely need an IPC uplift and smaller litho, more cache etc.

It will be cool to see what the M1x does though. M1 already has no-peers for a laptop AFAIC.
Old 19 hours ago | Show parent
  #14884
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
So slightly unrelated, but I'm looking for another TB2/TB3 audio interface.

I sold my UA Apollo x8p because I wanted something lower latency, and the only DSP plugin I was using from them was the Decimator; but the IK Multimedia one is every bit as good, so...


... I was thinking the Antelope Audio Discreet 8 Synergy Core... anyone here got any experience with that and AMD machines/Gigabyte b550 vision d board??
Old 16 hours ago | Show parent
  #14885
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC ➡️
Interesting, I don't get those results the last I tested it (few months ago). Is it an option that has to be turned on somewhere?

I've been seeing these types of posts forever-

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=240735
i believe it isn't an option that you have to turn on, but Reaper is installed here, o well, a fresh install, after my new system, no it is active, by default.

it is under Preferences -> Buffering -> Anticipative FX Processing

the default is 200ms, i use the default. this can interfere with for example UAD, it is mentioned..

strange that these kind of posts are in the cockos forum, i never visit it, almost never. but it is really one of the most known things about Reaper, and why it is mentioned as the most 'fast' DAW, well when tracks are unarmed..

it does interfere, i see know with midi editing, never noticed it.. but i think that is more, well, perhaps my user case, doesn't show this... nice grammar! (from me).

maybe those posts show up, because Reaper uses other jargon, for almost the same thing. Cubase Asio Guard, also reports in ms. and, yes i have also Cubase Pro 11, when you look at the dialog, it seems more if you 'extend the buffer', or looks like a double buffer, an extra buffer.

but those 200ms pre-rendering in Reaper, well it looks like a double buffer... and me thinks it is.

i use Reaper quite a lot, next to my other DAW's, every DAW has its purpose.. can't say that i know Reaper in-depth, but i repeat; this feature was known by me before i bought it, and of course after i bought it, i use it..

EDIT:
i must read better this also applies to armed tracks. i am reading know about studio one, o well now i am confused... in the cockos reaper post it is about unarmed tracks, in studio one it seems, it mostly is with unarmed tracks but also for armed tracks, with qualifying soundcards... the description isn't clear to me..

presonus: "Studio One takes this one step further with the introduction of native low-latency monitoring. When used with a high-speed audio interface, such as the PreSonus Quantum, Studio One’s completely redesigned audio-engine latency management allows you to stay in the native processing domain throughout the entire production process. The result is faster performance and better stability, including flexible dropout protection that reduces the risk of audio dropouts in CPU-heavy songs, even at very small buffer settings.

Native low-latency software monitoring works on virtual instruments, as well, enabling VIs to be played live, typically with unnoticeable latency. This is made possible by separating the processing cycles for audio monitoring, virtual instrument monitoring, and playback. For DSP-equipped interfaces such as the PreSonus Studio 192, you have a choice between low-latency software monitoring and even lower latency hardware monitoring.

Depending on the settings for Device Block Size and Dropout Protection, native low-latency monitoring can be achieved even with complex songs using many plug-ins and virtual instruments. Higher Dropout Protection settings result in a larger block-size for playback, while smaller Device Block Size settings result in lower audio and virtual instrument monitoring latency."

seems to me the same thing as Reaper does. and not..

my head today... perhaps a more complex approach indeed, but it looks to me... that it mostly depends on unarmed tracks.. that you can lower your sample buffer..

i give myself over to experts...
Old 15 hours ago | Show parent
  #14886
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relevator ➡️
i believe it isn't an option that you have to turn on, but Reaper is installed here, o well, a fresh install, after my new system, no it is active, by default.

it is under Preferences -> Buffering -> Anticipative FX Processing

the default is 200ms, i use the default. this can interfere with for example UAD, it is mentioned..
The anticipative processing only lasts for that window. IE 200ms after you hit play, or record, it goes to full CPU. That's how it's working on mine at least. Just seems to prevent an overload right when you hit play...I turned it off for testing because it kinda delays the inevitable. It seems to be staggering the Pre-rendering so each next instance comes online one after the next so it isn't one big load dropped on the CPU at once.

I don't have Cubase so I can't really speak to ASIO Guard...

I'm not knocking Reaper, generally a single buffer is fine with modern CPU's for the 128 buffer. 32 creates a lot of extra stress compared to 128 and IMO more or less necessitates a separate playback buffer- especially with certain things like the newer Kontakt Libraries that kinda need the larger buffers to playback without large CPU overhead (sunburst deluxe, the strad libs etc). Worse case though, it's not the end of the world to only have to freeze those select tracks.

The Presonus way works with any good native system- I find RME actually outperforms the Quantum (I have both here), in spite of slightly higher RTL's. IE I can load more stuff at 32 on RME than I can on the Quantum at 64.

If I compare Studio One, with dropout protection on, it outperforms Reaper by a significant margin in a playback test. Conversely, Reaper outperforms Studio One with dropout protection off...
Old 15 hours ago | Show parent
  #14887
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by amberience ➡️
So slightly unrelated, but I'm looking for another TB2/TB3 audio interface.

I sold my UA Apollo x8p because I wanted something lower latency, and the only DSP plugin I was using from them was the Decimator; but the IK Multimedia one is every bit as good, so...


... I was thinking the Antelope Audio Discreet 8 Synergy Core... anyone here got any experience with that and AMD machines/Gigabyte b550 vision d board??
Are you looking to do all the monitoring natively or via DSP?
Old 15 hours ago | Show parent
  #14888
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC ➡️
The anticipative processing only lasts for that window. IE 200ms after you hit play, or record, it goes to full CPU. That's how it's working on mine at least. Just seems to prevent an overload right when you hit play...I turned it off for testing because it kinda delays the inevitable. It seems to be staggering the Pre-rendering so each next instance comes online one after the next so it isn't one big load dropped on the CPU at once.

I don't have Cubase so I can't really speak to ASIO Guard...

I'm not knocking Reaper, generally a single buffer is fine with modern CPU's for the 128 buffer. 32 creates a lot of extra stress compared to 128 and IMO more or less necessitates a separate playback buffer- especially with certain things like the newer Kontakt Libraries that kinda need the larger buffers to playback without large CPU overhead (sunburst deluxe, the strad libs etc). Worse case though, it's not the end of the world to only have to freeze those select tracks.

The Presonus way works with any good native system- I find RME actually outperforms the Quantum (I have both here), in spite of slightly higher RTL's. IE I can load more stuff at 32 on RME than I can on the Quantum at 64.

If I compare Studio One, with dropout protection on, it outperforms Reaper by a significant margin in a playback test. Conversely, Reaper outperforms Studio One with dropout protection off...
i have read more about it, not wiser yet...

the 200ms window is of course a buffer that get's filled, the example i gave with the project that Reaper loads on default, my last project with it.. it plays all the way with that low CPU and Sample Buffer 'fill'.

i don't have Studio One.. i do have also Ableton Live 11 Suite and Bitwig Studio 4.04, for instance, that don't have any double buffering or pre-rendering, or how do you call it..

Reason 12, i don't even know how they handle it...

i never really did in-depth research on it, at my level.., so, perhaps i can be wrong.

but if i use Reaper, and add tracks, i disarm the tracks that are already recorded.. only arm tracks that i record, like in Cubase (in Cubase tracks aren't armed automatically, not even on select, i arm them with my MCU...). Reaper does arm all tracks, ALT + click (on windows), on the arm button of a track, disables all other tracks, i.e. unarm them... they play of course.

the Performance Meter is always open, next to the mixer window, on a second screen.

i never really tested it. i use it...

it seems more complex, o well, i knew that it was more complex, but never deep dived in it.

i don't know if dropout protection can be compared with ASIO guard of Cubase. (well you almost assume, wel because, we know... ex-steinberg..).

perhaps Studio One does have trick, that works better than Reaper.

but CPU/Sample Buffer Fill does not jump, after 200ms...

i tested, i added a track with Pigment 3, own home brewed preset, with home brewed samples, granular engines ánd MPE.. well Pigments 3 the CPU killer.

record arm the track of Pigments 3, all other are unarmed, of course CPU goes up, because Pigments 3 does something.

when playing MPE, and with some internal modulation, well RT CPU to 60%, which is quite nice, for that patch, and 7ms sample buffer fill, sometimes higher. when all voices ended there release 'phase', very long release... it goes down again to the well known small RT CPU of 2.5 % and very low sample buffer fill, of well.. again .025 something.

not very scientific i know...

we have much to consider; how VSTi plugins act, well Pigments 3 acts up...
in the link to the cockos forum thread you have given, someone talks about 50 to 100 VSTi's? well, my record is 9.... perhaps more.
but perhaps it is a template he/she is talking about, with not all used... (like everybody brags about 32 sample buffer!! i have a RME!, well ITB, and some heavy plugins, 512 sample buffer, will do it, but 32. yes, audio tracks...)

well, everyone uses things differently...

i am pretty new here, i am certainly nó expert, i am an user, experienced, in my own way of working based on of course knowledge, of the basic and more in-depth stuff, well i know my way around.

so perhaps i am writing jibberish, while you have the knowledge and experience.... your name drops here sometimes.. so...

but i already experienced, if you asked more technical stuff, you will find yourself after a lot of reactions, in a swamp. because of the zig-zag reactions...

so, to be clear, i know my stuff, not a master, or teacher, an eager student... (and some say, well, i don't think i am that good...)

always learning, me like that. sharpens your tools, the way you work.

but this is very technical. and perhaps agit-prop like passages like presonus does... i can understand it, and get also a bit lost...
i wonder if it is really informative for a bigger group of people.

interesting topic. and i always will admit, when i am wrong...

your last sentence is intriguing.

TL;DR

i am known for that, long posts. sorry...

but your last sentence. studio one vs reaper.
mmmmmh, i don't doubt it, of course!

i like to know things, also synthesis techniques, and FFT, i am not DSP coder, but i can follow it, and developers teach me... what is under the hood, it gives me more control, over a soft synth or soft modular...

so, it is important to know what the material is which you are working with, and the tools...

therefore my long posts, because i learn while writing.............
Old 11 hours ago | Show parent
  #14889
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC ➡️
Are you looking to do all the monitoring natively or via DSP?
Natively.
Old 11 hours ago | Show parent
  #14890
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relevator ➡️
i have read more about it, not wiser yet...
Ok, playing with this now and it appears you're right and kinda we are both right- butf most importantly it is a hybrid/dual buffer (AND it will pre-render before you play by that many ms).

I had assumed it was only the latter, because you can load beyond what the processor can do, and then after xxxms it will glitch.

But leaving the buffer set to 32, I see that performance in Reaper is pretty close when matching ms to block sizes equivalent ms latency in Studio One. Reaper's actually better here because you can set a really high one (IE even 200ms is roughly an 8096 sample buffer) and eek out a tad more performance than the highest option of dropout protection. I could get a few more voices of diva with a full 1000ms...

So to you and @ Piyono my apologies!
Old 11 hours ago | Show parent
  #14891
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by amberience ➡️
Natively.
I haven't used the Antelope stuff, and it looks like the discreet 8 is right up there with the RME in the low latency database...so should be good provided that it works with AMD TB.

The only interface I have that doesn't work well is the Focusrite Red 8Pre, but there is a new driver I should try (it's in another room, but I can just switch the TB cable).

Might be worth it to email Antelope and see if they have tried it with the b550/Zen3.

I'm super happy with RME MADI HDSPe in a TB3 enclosure and ferrofish- I have the computer in a remote machine room and with the AKITIO I can have everything come down the one TB optical cable (USB, DP/HDMI, PCIe).


Hey quick question- CTR 2.1 keeps crashing on my machine (ProArt Creator). I tried even running with DOCP off...passes prime95, crashes at various parts of the diagnostic. Any tips/ideas? Processor never gets over 70c (360mm rad).
Old 10 hours ago | Show parent
  #14892
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC ➡️
I haven't used the Antelope stuff, and it looks like the discreet 8 is right up there with the RME in the low latency database...so should be good provided that it works with AMD TB.

The only interface I have that doesn't work well is the Focusrite Red 8Pre, but there is a new driver I should try (it's in another room, but I can just switch the TB cable).

Might be worth it to email Antelope and see if they have tried it with the b550/Zen3.

I'm super happy with RME MADI HDSPe in a TB3 enclosure and ferrofish- I have the computer in a remote machine room and with the AKITIO I can have everything come down the one TB optical cable (USB, DP/HDMI, PCIe).


Hey quick question- CTR 2.1 keeps crashing on my machine (ProArt Creator). I tried even running with DOCP off...passes prime95, crashes at various parts of the diagnostic. Any tips/ideas? Processor never gets over 70c (360mm rad).
Thanks for the input. I may just have to suck it and see re: the Discreet 8.


About CTR - I'm not 100% sure. Does it crash the system, or just the app???
Old 10 hours ago | Show parent
  #14893
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by amberience ➡️
Thanks for the input. I may just have to suck it and see re: the Discreet 8.


About CTR - I'm not 100% sure. Does it crash the system, or just the app???
The system, which is stable otherwise...
Old 10 hours ago | Show parent
  #14894
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC ➡️
The system, which is stable otherwise...
My best advice is to load optimized defaults in BIOS, set the values according to the CTR video here:
https://youtu.be/W36MUzRqP14

turn off any ram overclocking, and go from there.
Old 6 hours ago | Show parent
  #14895
Lives for gear
 
Pictus's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC ➡️
Hey quick question- CTR 2.1 keeps crashing on my machine (ProArt Creator). I tried even running with DOCP off...passes prime95, crashes at various parts of the diagnostic. Any tips/ideas? Processor never gets over 70c (360mm rad).
Some voltage/megahertz combination.
Does it passes one cycle or two of the tests in http://www.numberworld.org/y-cruncher/ (press 1-7-0)
What https://zentimings.protonrom.com/ shows ?
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