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Paul Frindle - Is This Truth Or Myth? -
Old 1st August 2017 | Show parent
  #1741
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augustusarnone's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️
However - some converter internal architectures may produce partially inferior results when drive close to their limits - which does not necessarily produce actual clipping.
Could I trouble you to elaborate? I personally don't have knowledge of all the various parts and stages in AD and DA converters, but I have noticed, on playback, the quality (timbre, character..) of the audio often sounds less good to me if there are somewhat sustained sounds at -1 or -2 dbfs, even if there's no clipping. I always assumed it was the analog stage of the converters being pushed and not responding well. I have 3 different DACs here, and two of them perform noticeably less good at this loudness level than the more high end one I own. I've settled on avoiding crossing over -3dbfs, other than occasionally on very short transients, not necessarily because of fearing illegal data and clipping but simply because I assume especially a consumer playback device might have somewhat compromised performance in that upper range.

I can only describe the sound I'm referring to as 'pinched' and a bit strident ---basically, unpleasant. I wonder what might cause that, frequency imbalance? noise? filtering artifacts?

PS thank you for your generosity in explaining all this stuff.
Old 1st August 2017
  #1742
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Clipping an ADC was never a general practice. Mastering engineers found that certain very specific high-end converters could be clipped as a means of shaving a few peaks off. With most converters it didn't sound very good and, as Paul suggested, many converters sound best keeping peaks below -10.
Old 1st August 2017 | Show parent
  #1743
Gear Guru
 
12ax7's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson ➡️
Clipping an ADC was never a general practice. Mastering engineers found that certain very specific high-end converters could be clipped as a means of shaving a few peaks off. With most converters it didn't sound very good and, as Paul suggested, many converters sound best keeping peaks below -10.
Yep.
The obsession for printing to media at "absolute max" levels used to make a whole lot more sense with analog tape.

(Those old Ampex machines were brilliant in their ability to saturate the tape itself before any of the electronics started to saturate!)

...But these days (running at 24bit), you're really not going to go too far wrong with the following as a general guideline:
.
Old 2nd August 2017
  #1744
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
I've heard incredible sound peaking to -30!
Old 2nd August 2017 | Show parent
  #1745
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️
I totally understand mixed feelings about this. I knew this would cause controversy, because it always does, because it's about meaning attached to concepts. Everyone sits in front of DAW which displays sample values and everyone is encouraged to think of them as 'signal' - when in fact they are only a suite of numbers following Pulse Code Modulation format.

It depends on what people attribute to the language they use - what is actually meant by it - and crucially if that meaning is accurate and universal. I suppose if people and the industry rename samples as 'signal' leaving the 'digital' part out, then that's what everyone accepts they are? But it does not mean the understanding is correct. An AES connection is a data connection. Call it a signal if you like, but it sure as hell is not an audio signal in essence.

But in reality the only digital audio signal you can ever experience is that which is decoded, by filtering the above nyquist artefacts of sampling, decoding and returning a continuous analogue signal.

We must never forget that whatever process we actually run in the digital domain - it is not running on decoded real world signal, it's simply changing the data stream to produce the required effect when the signal is eventually decoded. All signal processing designers must live with this hugely important concept permanently :-)

This is what I mean by signal - i.e. the one that we will hear and experience in the real world.

[...].
What I hear and experience in the real world is sound.

I totally get what you're saying with regard to the data points that represent the sample values. And -- for sure -- the sample values without the crucial context of format are not signal by anyone's definition of the word.

I was more thinking of how Shannon uses signal in his Mathematical Theory of Communication. (Not that I am at all conversant in that truly seminal work, I rush to stipulate.) https://www.ece.uvic.ca/~agullive/shannon1948.pdf


Sorry for the distraction!
Old 2nd August 2017 | Show parent
  #1746
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️
Thanks for your thoughts on this - they are appreciated :-)

I'm sorry that you are disappointed in the plugin alliance version of the DSM.
Hi Paul - sorry for the delayed response - I've been very unwell and off work since my previous post, but slowly coming good.

Actually, I find DSM indispensable for many tasks. I'm not even slightly disappointed with what it does. I'm disappointed that Plugin Alliance doesn't fix GUI and state-save problems in one of the company's most expensive plugins. Even if the problems are edge-cases, leaving them unfixed for years is an example of the 80/20 rule at it's worst.

Plugin Alliance have known about the curve problem for ages, but (like you) they don't know what causes it. Suffice to say, I cant shed any light on that - I'm not a developer. Maybe it's a permissions problem, but seems to me that should be easy to determine. People like me pay companies like Plugin Alliance to ensure the product does what it says on the tin. Beyond nagging them about it there's not much I can do except ask for it to be fixed.

As a mastering engineer, my biggest fear is reopening masters to revise them only to discover something in the chain isn't as it was when creating the master. In a few cases I've had revision requests come in many months (one was 18 months) after the project was originally signed off. I need to reopen projects in the knowledge the saved state reflects the exact settings from the previous render.

An aside: The difficulties of recall for analogue workflows is one reason why ITB mastering is now the default method for a large number of mastering businesses. Customers expect perfect total recall. Pricing is so competitive that ITB mastering is the only way some businesses can survive. Businesses which still use analogue workflows are usually long established, where the expensive outboard was paid for ages ago. It's almost impossible to enter the mastering business now with an analogue workflow unless the business owner has money to burn.

A friend who has the best analogue gear money can buy is really struggling with customers expectations regarding revisions and pricing. The market demands ITB and he cant compete by remaining OTB.

The good side of this lies with the available ITB processors. Nowadays, I reckon ITB masters are easily as good as analogue masters if the engineer knows what he/she is doing. I also reckon a pretty good argument can be made for ITB being sonically superior in many cases - processors like DSM simply don't exist in the analogue domain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️
The existing GUI was in fact designed by them following advice from their marketing people, as a more modern version of our own GUI for their customers. I'm very happy to receive any ideas and thoughts on how it could be made better for you guys - within the intended scope of the design and application :-)
Ideally, move away from metallic 3D greyscale bitmaps to something more contemporary and consider scalable vector. Or, have a look at some more recent GUIs to derive ideas.

Like this:

TDR Nova | Tokyo Dawn Records

or these:

https://www.fabfilter.com/products/

The point being: In the 90s, Bob Lentini's SAW software sounded fantastic and was so stable it became the first ITB mixer to be used at live gigs. Bob rightfully earned industry kudos for building his app in Assembler and deriving industry leading sound quality and stability. But SAW looked terrible. Bob strongly resisted customer requests for a better GUI. This really hurt sales, to the point where Bob's stubbornness about his GUIs and things like VST support became the reason many didn't buy his products and his existing customer base fatally eroded. The market wants what the market wants. Customers are fickle because they can be. In today's audio software scene, there are so many good products that GUIs are a huge factor in customer choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️
As I have explained many times before, the graph reflects the linear nature of the frequency spread of the process. The DSM does NOT have high freq selectivity in the LF regions - not least of all because it's designed to be a compressor. A load of dramatic and selective actions on the individual fundamental notes of the music is not an advantage for this application.
I understood this before mentioning it and probably should have clarified. That said, it's not intuitive to have the curve below 1kHz compressed as is and I can't see how it could hurt the process to 'extend' the display. My brain wants to see what it wants to see. I don't want the processing algorithm to change - what I want is more complete visual insight/feedback from the UI. If I'm tweaking a low frequency via one of the parametric knobs, I feel a need for that to be displayed effectively in the threshold curve, even if below 1kHz is a single band all the way down to 20Hz. I have enough knowledge of hearing to know I cant trust my ears alone when mastering - good GUIs save time and reduce mistakes when tired. Quite literally, the best GUIs help us stay profitable and consistently professional.

If the threshold is being exceeded below (say) 800Hz, I prefer to know the frequency band/s provoking the threshold. It might be something I can deal with via another method before the audio reaches DSM.

Displaying a spectrum analyser within a plugin is trivial nowadays. I'm not sure if you spend much time checking out the latest GUIs in today's plugins, but suffice to say there are many beautiful options available.

The fact you've had to "explain it many times already" gives you some clues the threshold curve display is not intuitive for end users. Doesn't mean it's broken or really badly designed, but does mean it could be improved in line with what customers want. If that was sorted, you'd no longer have users asking why the threshold curve is so unusual compared to (say) typical multiband compressors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️
As far as I can tell, your Sequoia applications supports VST plugins protocol? I'm a bit perplexed as to why it doesn't work?
I'm also perplexed, but it isn't only me and (AFAIK) it isn't only a problem within Sequoia and Samplitude. I could be wrong about that. Aside from problems years ago with Slate Digital plugins, I have zero problems with other plugins in Sequoia. I dumped the Slate plugins because the problems I had remained acknowledged but unfixed for years. I don't want to dump DSM.

NOTE: I have managed to workaround the knob problem by using the last version of DDMF Metaplugin, which is essentially a plugin chainer. The threshold curve isnt fixed within DDMF.

https://ddmf.eu/product/

JUCE seems to be a common problem with edge cases. When pressed, some developers admit the wait time for the JUCE developer to fix edge case issues is years, not weeks or months. I don't know if Plugin Alliance relies on the JUCE framework, but it wouldn't surprise me.

IMPORTANT NOTE: DSM works correctly in Reaper on my PCs, so it does seem clear that the host DAW software is a big factor. I'll raise it with Magix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️
Your compilation as to how it fails on many other platforms is welcome, as I'm assuming it's coming from your personal experience :-)
I'm going on the explanation from Plugin Alliance support, which indicated I'm not alone. I dont know how many users are affected. I also dont know how many users demo'd the product but abandoned it because of the curve bug. Plugin Alliance probably knows the demo vs sales statistics. Maybe you have demo vs sales statistics for your company before you handed the plugin to Plugin Alliance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️
All I can tell people in complete honesty is that I'm deeply embarrassed that there are apparently so many issues with it on some platforms - and I'm doing everything I can personally manage to address these, from the position of the original application design team. Nothing is off the table as far as I'm concerned - if it's so fatally broken and sales become so meager (as you suggest), then it will cease to be a viable commercial product. From my position I feel that this would be a sad loss for the 1000's of engineers who are currently using it to great advantage in their work.
No need to be deeply embarrassed! I didn't say it is fatally broken (if it was, I wouldn't use it) and nor do I claim that sales are meagre, but my anecdotal observation is DSM rarely gets a mention when people discuss their tools. From that I extrapolated that the plugin could achieve better sales to up & coming engineers by revamping the GUI in line with recent competing products. That is all. Maybe it's a secret weapon!

Instead of being embarrassed, be glad that I'm here wanting to make DSM work better for me instead of using something else. No other developer has come up with a better alternative for some of the tasks suited to DSM - that is a reason to be very proud of your work.

Thousands of engineers? OK, didnt realise you'd sold so many licenses. That's great on one hand but perplexing on another, because thousands of $400 license fees should be a reasonable sum for a pro audio plugin developer in today's market. That said, no developer can survive with only one plugin as the company's only product, so it's not all that surprising you had to go down the Plugin Alliance path.

If I recall correctly, the plugin was originally $400 when purchased direct. The price became $329 when Plugin Alliance got involved. If you sold 1000 licenses prior to Plugin Alliance, that is $400,000, which seems pretty good for a single plugin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️
I use it on every session I do - and i would not want to be without it :-)
I dont use it on every master because of the workflow issues. If those were sorted, I'd use it much more often. It is uniquely powerful and a great example of using code to innovate.

With regard to expanding into new markets, there's a real need for DSM in the iOS universe, which nowadays supports the iOS version of AU. iOS isnt only used by kiddies making beats.

If you retained any of the rights to the plugin, consider partnering with an iOS developer such as:

Kymatica | Software / AUM

Or maybe partner with DDMF - that company's products are available in iOS:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/develope...ag/id538434682

Last edited by diggo; 2nd August 2017 at 12:41 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 2nd August 2017 | Show parent
  #1747
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➡️
What I hear and experience in the real world is sound.

I totally get what you're saying with regard to the data points that represent the sample values. And -- for sure -- the sample values without the crucial context of format are not signal by anyone's definition of the word.

I was more thinking of how Shannon uses signal in his Mathematical Theory of Communication. (Not that I am at all conversant in that truly seminal work, I rush to stipulate.) https://www.ece.uvic.ca/~agullive/shannon1948.pdf


Sorry for the distraction!

Needless to say, by the time we perceive the air vibrations as sound, it is no longer sound. Before we perceive it, sound is converted into something our brain can process.

Although I guess someone could argue that until we perceive sound, it's just vibrating air.
Old 2nd August 2017 | Show parent
  #1748
Lives for gear
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggo ➡️
Needless to say, by the time we perceive the air vibrations as sound, it is no longer sound. Before we perceive it, sound is converted into something our brain can process.

Although I guess someone could argue that until we perceive sound, it's just vibrating air.
This is so true. The sound we perceive is generated in our heads from the stimuli we receive from our ears - and in fact even at the limit from our eyes and other stimuli too. It's an inner 'experience'.

This fact is not lost on the way we engineer processing to stimulate a desired effect.

Sound engineering is primarily an artistic process - and what we require from our audio tech is to provide us with the artistic tools we need and deliver the results in a reliable and consistent fashion. Audio tech should ideally be our slave - and not our master.

Much of the pseudo-tech from market creation and other commercial sources tends to undermine this IMVHO - because it entrains people in a kind of everlasting round-robin diversion from the real process of making art. In the middle of this confusion, people eventually seek out 'rules' to get what they need - which undermines the real need, which is to create art themselves, by whatever means at their disposal.

Some of the most successful art in modern music has been created by people who stuck their necks out and did what swathes of the 'intelligentsia' of the times would deeply frown upon :-)
Old 2nd August 2017 | Show parent
  #1749
Lives for gear
 
Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️
This is so true. The sound we perceive is generated in our heads from the stimuli we receive from our ears - and in fact even at the limit from our eyes and other stimuli too. It's an inner 'experience'.
If you ever want to have real fun, read Eric Kandel's "The Age of Insight: The Quest to Understand the Unconscious in Art, Mind, and Brain, from Vienna 1900 to the Present", especially the chapters on vision, and how the brain creates the image by searching quickly through its "filing cabinet" to create what it can't possible have time to "see".

It's the perfect book that melds art with science, written by a pulitzer prize winning neuroscientist and art lover.

https://www.amazon.com/Age-Insight-U.../dp/1400068711
Old 2nd August 2017 | Show parent
  #1750
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by diggo ➡️
Needless to say, by the time we perceive the air vibrations as sound, it is no longer sound. Before we perceive it, sound is converted into something our brain can process.

Although I guess someone could argue that until we perceive sound, it's just vibrating air.
I knew I should have said compression waves in free air pushing and pulling on my ear drums, sending waves through the fluid to...
Old 3rd August 2017 | Show parent
  #1751
Lives for gear
 
zvukofor's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️
This is so true. The sound we perceive is generated in our heads from the stimuli we receive from our ears - and in fact even at the limit from our eyes and other stimuli too. It's an inner 'experience'.

This fact is not lost on the way we engineer processing to stimulate a desired effect.

Sound engineering is primarily an artistic process - and what we require from our audio tech is to provide us with the artistic tools we need and deliver the results in a reliable and consistent fashion. Audio tech should ideally be our slave - and not our master.

Much of the pseudo-tech from market creation and other commercial sources tends to undermine this IMVHO - because it entrains people in a kind of everlasting round-robin diversion from the real process of making art. In the middle of this confusion, people eventually seek out 'rules' to get what they need - which undermines the real need, which is to create art themselves, by whatever means at their disposal.

Some of the most successful art in modern music has been created by people who stuck their necks out and did what swathes of the 'intelligentsia' of the times would deeply frown upon :-)
That's a golden words, Paul.
Old 4th August 2017 | Show parent
  #1752
Gear Addict
 
ChrisNunchuck's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
Paul Frindle,
BTW, I thought I had a great idea for DSM but it didn't work out. I tried using two DSM's to process Mid and Sides (with help from Voxengo MSED) then recombine. It didn't sound good. The single stereo DSM sounded a 1000% better. Only tried it on one track. Perhaps that technology just isn't suited for M/S or perhaps it would require some internal phase compensation controller.
Old 4th August 2017 | Show parent
  #1753
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
A quick addon to my previous post re: the uniqueness of DSM and my comments about the GUI - probably the closest plugin to DSM is Oek Sound's Soothe, followed by Melda Productions' Spectral Dynamics. In both cases the overall GUI isnt particularly exciting, but the curve display is more useful and informative than the DSM approach. The Melda plugin is scalable as well.

GUI design has come a long way since DSM was first released. Improving it could improve sales. Everyone here wants you to prosper Paul!

I also just want to add that I'm aware of course that this thread isnt an ideal place to discuss Paul's innovative plugin, but I came in at the tail end of the DSM-related diversion and wanted to contribute. Apologies for veering off topic!
Old 4th August 2017 | Show parent
  #1754
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️
This is so true. The sound we perceive is generated in our heads from the stimuli we receive from our ears - and in fact even at the limit from our eyes and other stimuli too. It's an inner 'experience'.
This is an area where logic is often overruled by mistaken intuition and what people call 'common sense', particularly in analogue vs digital discussions.

The methods used by our body to capture and perceive sound are more like digital audio than analogue audio, particularly at the point of capture. Hearing is like eyesight - our body uses every possible shortcut to ensure maximum efficiency within the voracious electrical demands of the brain and nervous system. Our auditory and visual systems rely heavily on prediction and interpolation. We've evolved to see and hear what we need to survive, but the goal is speed, not accuracy. Hence, shortcuts.

If someone was put in charge of our auditory system design, he/she wouldn't install a tape machine into our skulls.......
Old 25th May 2020 | Show parent
  #1755
Lives for gear
 
ghostman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Frindle ➡️

...... to be honest from a personal point of view as one of the people who designed these things way back, every time I see yet another 'SSL-esque' GUI with yet another supposed 'copy' my heart sinks further.

Knowing what I know, there's no way that I want what we made back then (let alone an incomplete 'emulation' of one of them) because we have moved on so much further than the restrictions which applied in those days........

But I can say with all honesty that the stuff we have made since then (which is being sold at miniscule fractions of the cost) far surpasses the performance of anything I could achieve in the 1980's in analogue.. There's no way I want to go back to those days - and I have no interest in the 'emulations'.


...wowzers ...

thank you very much for your candour Paul.


Im a musician, a biology grad and I now work as an electrician studying electrical science to improve my trade grading

and I find endless fascinations in studying audio engineering and psychoacoustics (on my downtime) while studying electrical engineering ...

Knowledge of one feeds the other so much its like a series of eureka moments .

Electromagnetics vs, Binary code as a widely-held argument over which is better seems silly to me and so the analogue vs. digital (and consequent analogue emulation debate ) has seemed increasingly purposeless to me (no offence meant to those with strong opposing views on this)

IMO We should be forward facing like those electrical engineers in the last century who invented the ingenious things we still want to emulate now.

so for me, reading someone's opinion who was involved in the engineering of classic legacy audio engineering ...its priceless


Im only at the beginning of this thread , (page 4.)....

in the coming days....when I've read through and properly digested all the knowledge and experience in this thread...ill return with a question of my own if i may and i hope i get a complimentary "im now an audio genius " mug, t-shirt and keyring when i arrive back at this point .

...again...thanks for the candour and of course...respect to you for your great work in this field

many thanks
Old 25th May 2020 | Show parent
  #1756
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisNunchuck ➡️
Paul Frindle,
BTW, I thought I had a great idea for DSM but it didn't work out.
Dear Paul, I hope this isn’t OT but I purchased DSM when it first appeared, before Plugin Alliance existed. It’s truly an exceptional tool but AFAIK, there is presently no 96k version. Only 48k. Is this correct? Is there any possibility of a 96k version being released? Please excuse the interruption and take care.
Old 25th May 2020 | Show parent
  #1757
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by raal ➡️
Dear Paul, I hope this isn’t OT but I purchased DSM when it first appeared, before Plugin Alliance existed. It’s truly an exceptional tool but AFAIK, there is presently no 96k version. Only 48k. Is this correct? Is there any possibility of a 96k version being released? Please excuse the interruption and take care.
As far as i can see, the DSM V3 supports up to 192kHz.


Cheers
Fred
Old 28th May 2020 | Show parent
  #1758
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by frenzy ➡️
As far as i can see, the DSM V3 supports up to 192kHz.


Cheers
Fred
Thank you Paul, i was misinformed. Take care.
Old 26th June 2022
  #1759
This thread is incredible. Thank you @ paul
Old 26th June 2022
  #1760
This thread is incredible. Thank you @ paul
Old 16th August 2022
  #1761
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
I just fell into the rabbit-hole of rereading some of this.
Old 16th August 2022 | Show parent
  #1762
Lives for gear
 
Casey's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson ➡️
I just fell into the rabbit-hole of rereading some of this.
I love this thread.

I would nominate the (I believe closely associated) study of our brains “Default Mode Network” as another worthy rabbit hole.



-Casey
Old 16th August 2022
  #1763
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Indeed! The one scary part is I don't think I'm as good at discussing this stuff today as I was a decade ago.
Old 16th August 2022
  #1764
Lives for gear
 
Macaroni's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I learned quite a bit from this thread and Paul of course.

And I use DSM v3 in every mix.

As does everyone, I have more than enough diverse compressors, but oddly enough, I don't have an SSL Mix Bus compressor, and never really wanted one. Go figure.
Old 17th August 2022 | Show parent
  #1765
Lives for gear
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson ➡️
Indeed! The one scary part is I don't think I'm as good at discussing this stuff today as I was a decade ago.
Bob - I feel the same way sometimes. I've become somewhat disconnected from the sharp end because I'm now retired. But of course the principles are the same.
Old 17th August 2022 | Show parent
  #1766
Paul, Bob - thank you both for sharing your wisdom even now.
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