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Scoring in Logic 9 THAT bad???
Old 16th November 2009
  #1
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🎧 15 years
Scoring in Logic 9 THAT bad???

Hi,

I really don't get it. Seriously. I can't believe that the scoring function, especially the export functionality is THAT bad.
To illustrate it, here's a screen capture of what Logics score editor looks like in page mode (taken with Skitch):


All fine, at least for now.

Now, here's what Logic is producing out of this, using the camera tool:


I have a tough time to believe that this is true...

And here's the Print-to-PDF result (again, a screenshot of the PDF):


As you can see, it's really just as bad as the camera export. Downright unuseable by any means.

And here's yet another one, how Logics score editor displays dotted quarter notes (followed by an eighth note):


Again, downright wrong, as much as it gets. The dot has to be placed WAY closer to the quarter.

Yet another thing: I installed a few TTFs, the "Jazz" one among them. They are all working fine in Logic 5 / Win, but they produce a horrible load of absolutely unreadable crap in Logic 9.

I fail to see how anybody could get any scoring done with this pile of BS.
I also fail to see how anybody has even remotely tested the scoring (and especially export) functionality at all before the release.

In case anybody has some suggestions about how to improve the situation (others than Apple fixing things, which never will happen), I'd be very grateful. I just need to print out a few scores for a theatre job and this is driving me entirely nuts.

- Sascha
Old 16th November 2009
  #2
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🎧 15 years
Alright, I loaded the same song in L8, here's what the export looks like:


Still completely unuseable (look at the rests in the git system), but at least the bass system is looking correct.

So, this is clearly a Logic 9 issue. And it's even more clear that NO-F***ING-BODY at Apple even remotely gives a damn about this functionality anymore, let alone test it at all. I mean, I already detected 4-5 MAJOR bugs (read: absolute showstoppers) in the score editor after fooling around with it for just half an hour.

Really pissed off!

- Sascha
Old 16th November 2009 | Show parent
  #3
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synthoid's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I've seen lots worse come out of it. You're really not doing so badly.

I've always thought of it not as a real scoring tool per se (not an alternative to Sibelius etc.) but rather as a way making MIDI data quasi-readable in a form other than piano roll or event lists. Most of the other scoring programs I've worked in do lots better at layout, but much worse at interpreting human-played MIDI data than Logic's does. That's no consolation if you're hoping to get an honest-to-goodness camera-ready score from the thing, but still.

-synthoid
Old 16th November 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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saovi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Ouch. Makes me glad I stuck with L8 for now. This is frightening because I do rely on Logic on occasion to produce quick scores for live players. I wonder why this is being overlooked?
Old 16th November 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthoid ➑️
I've seen lots worse come out of it. You're really not doing so badly.
Well, how much worse than "completely unuseable" does it get? I mean, really, the exported score can't be used for anything. Fine (errm, well, "sort of fine") in the editor, a pile of nonsense when exported. If I ever put such a sheet in front of some player, he/she/'ll laugh his/her ass off and I'll probably even risk being fired.

Quote:
I've always thought of it not as a real scoring tool per se (not an alternative to Sibelius etc.) but rather as a way making MIDI data quasi-readable in a form other than piano roll or event lists. Most of the other scoring programs I've worked in do lots better at layout, but much worse at interpreting human-played MIDI data than Logic's does. That's no consolation if you're hoping to get an honest-to-goodness camera-ready score from the thing, but still.
Thing is, for the time being, I really don't need any better scoring functionality, but I *do* of course need a properly working export function. And apparently that is broken as much as it gets.

- Sascha
Old 16th November 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by saovi ➑️
Ouch. Makes me glad I stuck with L8 for now. This is frightening because I do rely on Logic on occasion to produce quick scores for live players. I wonder why this is being overlooked?
As easy as that: Logic support is non-existing ever since the Apple takeover.
Squeeze new things into that old bug-ridden code? Yes (of course, they need to sell more Macs). Iron out some old and outstanding bugs? By all means, no!

- Sascha
Old 16th November 2009
  #7
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code 10's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Found something else to moan about Sascha I see?

Stop whining and get a copy of Sibelius, job done........





...
Old 16th November 2009 | Show parent
  #8
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🎧 10 years
That is messed up. I can not reproduce that behaviour, though. When I go crazy with the layout tool and have too much stuff on a system it messes up the spacing (as expected). But even then the messed up spacing is consistent from Logic to the camera tool pic to the pdf export. And the dots always stay where they belong.

I guess I'd start with the usual troubleshooting, reinstalling the font, trashing the preferences.

Logics score editor is of course no match for Sibelius or Finale but you shouldn't really have a problem with simple, straightforward scores like this.
Old 16th November 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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Geert van den Berg's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Apple - Logic Pro - Feedback
Old 17th November 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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synthoid's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck ➑️
Well, how much worse than "completely unuseable" does it get? I mean, really, the exported score can't be used for anything. Fine (errm, well, "sort of fine") in the editor, a pile of nonsense when exported. If I ever put such a sheet in front of some player, he/she/'ll laugh his/her ass off and I'll probably even risk being fired.
I haven't found Logic's score editor to be good enough to generate working scores for other musicians. It does lots of stuff that is worse than what you are seeing, which looks to me like nothing more than a font problem of some kind. The bizarre connection between the chord/transposition track, the score editor, and the actual MIDI regions in the project creates all kinds of complicated problems. Coercing it into recognizing proper triplets, grace notes, etc., all of that kind of stuff is a real headache. I mean, fundamentally it is designed to be fully automatic, working right off the MIDI data, and given that, it does a pretty reasonable job I think. But that's not how real scoring is done.

-synthoid
Old 17th November 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg ➑️
LOL
Old 17th November 2009 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
None of DAWs' score editors are good. They are all very bad. I have suggested to Logic and MOTU so many times...... Unfortunately the manufactures don't care, because most DAW users don't use it and most of them can't read music too (for good or bad reasons). More plug-ins or instruments will sell, but not score editing function.

If you really need a good scoring application, try Sibelius or something similar.
Old 17th November 2009 | Show parent
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chao ➑️
None of DAWs' score editors are good. They are all very bad. I have suggested to Logic and MOTU so many times...... Unfortunately the manufactures don't care, because most DAW users don't use it and most of them can't read music too (for good or bad reasons). More plug-ins or instruments will sell, but not score editing function.

If you really need a good scoring application, try Sibelius or something similar.
They all really need to drop that function and let Sibelius and Finale take over
No comparison IMO.
Old 17th November 2009 | Show parent
  #14
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🎧 15 years
I've complained about the scoring a number of times - it falls on deaf ears unfortunately.
Old 17th November 2009 | Show parent
  #15
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🎧 15 years
Fwiw, trashing my preferences helped a great deal, so thanks a lot, strandkorb.
There's still quite some weird things happening, though. The dotted quarter still looks as wrong as it gets and I already discovered some further things. The jazz font still doesn't work properly, either.
And btw, I also reported everything to the Logic Feedback. None of the bugs I reported there ever got fixed during the lifespan of a version. Not a single one. Most of them even didn't get fixed with version jumps. So it's absolutely pointless to waste your time on that page (I really don't know why I'm doing it at all).

Regarding score editors in general, I like them to be inside my sequencer. I never need full orchestral scoring, I also don't need publishable score sheets, so the outcome of what, say, Cubase and Logic offer, is quite fine. And it's obviously a LOT easier to do such simple scoring along your songs.
What would be cool would be a score editor that worked as a plugin, so dedicated 3rd party developers could take care of. I know that PT has some sort of "link" to Sibelius, but I don't think you can actually use Sibelius as a MIDI editor for PT, so that's not exactly the solution.

However, all I'm asking for is the things available in whatever score editor (or any other area of the program) to work as supposed. And they often don't (in Logic 9 even pretty often, the dreaded "capture last take" mess up is really driving me nuts just about each minute).

And btw, as it's been quite some time that I worked with Logics scoring, I had to look into the manual. It's unbelievable how much they messed that part up, too. If you, say, search for "lead sheet", there's one relevant search result for the score editor, but that doesn't explain the lead sheet functionality, either. Also, there's a complete lack of a proper tutorial-alike section.
Fwiw, I don't remember how long it took me to find out about the "n-tole" function. In fact, I never found out about it, a friend told me how it worked.
And then, the new java based manual is a complete joke. For whatever reasons, Apple had to reinvent the wheel (why oh why, the PDF based ones worked fine), but the result was a square. Whenever you open the manual, it's opening as an "always on top" window (Why? I think "float" windows are hated in Apple land - at least they took most of them away from Logic), so you can't switch back to Logic. You need to minimize the manual to get back to Logic. When you're really checking out some new functions you (obviously) need to switch between the manual and Logic quite often - a raw clickfest and a true major PITA (fortunately, at home I can just place the manual on my second monitor, but when I'm on the road, using my 13", well, better don't remind me...). I know, the english manual can be downloaded as a PDF (I think?), but I haven't found the german version yet. Anyway, that new help system is ****, nothing else. I don't remember someone asking for a new manual implementation, either.

Oh, before I forget, here's another bug I'd like to make you aware of, it can really mess things up in case you work quickly:
Let's say you're in a typical swing scoring situation. You'd usually use "8, 12" for that.
Now, when you have, say, a triplet of an 8th/t rest and two 8th/t notes and delete the last triplet 8th, the result should either be rest/8th/rest or rest/4th, so it's clear that the second note of the triplet should be played. Logics score edit however produces a rest/8th combination, which each and every swing player on earth interpretes as having to play the last triplet note. This is 100% reproduceable. The easiest workaround I found so far is to actually insert an 8th note rest on top of the last 8th note (you won't see it for now) and then delete the note (now the rest becomes visible). Deleting the note first, then placing a rest is working, too, but it's tougher to place the rest.

Finally, thanks again to strandkorb, should've thought about preference trashing myself, but I just had to do it last week, so well - I mean, who likes trashing preferences on a weekly base?

- Sascha
Old 17th November 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken ➑️
I've complained about the scoring a number of times - it falls on deaf ears unfortunately.
Which is weird. I mean, especially deaf ears should need proper score editing, no? I guess Beethoven wouldn't be amused...

- Sascha
Old 17th November 2009 | Show parent
  #17
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthoid ➑️
I haven't found Logic's score editor to be good enough to generate working scores for other musicians.
I have. A good friend of mine is the musical director and arranger of the Roger Cicero bigband (which, right now, is quite famous in germany, probably the biggest "regular" act inside germany these days) and he's doing all his scoring with Logic. Yes, for a bigband. Mind you, he's still using Logic/Win, so things such as the jazz font actually do work (which helps the look of things a lot). Now, he admittedly things of getting Sibelius, too, but his scores still look very very good and people are permanently stunned about him only using Logic (he obviously knows that thing inside out).
Of course, once you need to do more complexed scores (or lead sheets with brackets, repeats, segnos, D.C.s and what not), you will have to deal with a "score specialized" arrangement of your song and you will as well run into troubles keeping track of some things. Yet, for my friend things seem to work quite well.

- Sascha
Old 17th November 2009 | Show parent
  #18
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jamwerks's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Eventually all DAW's will probably have a Finale/Sibelius quality score editor built in. PT is seemingly about half way there with the "export to Sibelius" feature. Never seen comments about how well that works though.......
Old 17th November 2009 | Show parent
  #19
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synthoid's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck ➑️
Of course, once you need to do more complexed scores (or lead sheets with brackets, repeats, segnos, D.C.s and what not), you will have to deal with a "score specialized" arrangement of your song and you will as well run into troubles keeping track of some things.
right, that's the only way I've been able to get decent scores out of it too. At that point, it's not much more convenient to use Logic than it is to use another scoring program though. probably less convenient, actually, because a lot of stuff that's really convoluted in Logic is straightforward in other programs.

I've gotten some great results from Lilypond, which is free, by the way. It uses a text-based input language, and so it's not as convenient as a MIDI-based solution, but the printed results are terrific.

-synthoid
Old 18th November 2009 | Show parent
  #20
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I have done well over a 1,000 TV Episodes and film cues with Logic's score and it can be made to work just fine. I have never used the Export feature however, but print from Logic.
Old 18th November 2009 | Show parent
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashermusic ➑️
I have never used the Export feature however, but print from Logic.
I need the export function as I need to send PDFs out.
Apart from that, there's several actual bugs (see the one about deleting the third triplet, which is 100% reproduceable).

- Sascha
Old 18th November 2009 | Show parent
  #22
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valis's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
If print works better than export, just print to a pdf exporter....or print to file with a postscript printer setting and use Distiller or something to convert that to pdf.

The TTF's you tried worked properly in Logic 5 PC because TTF's are a Microsoft standard and font-handling tends to be an OS thing these days. Of course since Apple owns Logic now and Logic 9 is showing issues...but Apple isn't even consistent with it's UI standards (they break them even with their own apps) so some of this may be dependant on what other updates have been done to the OS for other applications installed or etc (dependancies).

Also, most of the people I know who record Orchestrations using Logic and use it's Scoring function for their composing tend to bring the score over to Sibelius (or similar) and finalize things from there. Ie, they see Logic as a DAW with an easier path to final scoring than just bringing midi tracks over, but not as a final solution for everything in and of itself (regardless of what marketingspeak does with bulleted lists and such.)
Old 18th November 2009 | Show parent
  #23
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jamwerks's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by valis ➑️
If print works better than export, just print to a pdf exporter....

Also, most of the people I know who record Orchestrations using Logic and use it's Scoring function for their composing tend to bring the score over to Sibelius (or similar) and finalize things from there. Ie, they see Logic as a DAW with an easier path to final scoring than just bringing midi tracks over, but not as a final solution for everything in and of itself (regardless of what marketingspeak does with bulleted lists and such.)
That's what I do (export to Finale) but I spend a lot of time preparing the mock up for export (quantisation, correct not lenghts, etc). Would be nice if Logic had a flexible and feature filled Score editor.
I was expecting lots of novelties in Logic 9, but nooo
Old 18th November 2009 | Show parent
  #24
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Geert van den Berg's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sascha Franck ➑️
And btw, I also reported everything to the Logic Feedback. None of the bugs I reported there ever got fixed during the lifespan of a version. Not a single one. Most of them even didn't get fixed with version jumps. So it's absolutely pointless to waste your time on that page (I really don't know why I'm doing it at all).
You could report it and explain the situation and maybe also put in a link to a thread or post on this forum, or to other threads/post where you've pointed out problems. In this way they can also see the pic's you added.
Old 19th November 2009 | Show parent
  #25
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamwerks ➑️
That's what I do (export to Finale) but I spend a lot of time preparing the mock up for export (quantisation, correct not lenghts, etc).
Are you aware of these two functions (see image)?
Attached Thumbnails
Scoring in Logic 9 THAT bad???-fix-displayed-note-positions-durations-.png  
Old 19th November 2009 | Show parent
  #26
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🎧 15 years
A way around needing to export to make a PDF could be one of those virtual PDF printers - then just print from Logic straight to the virtual printer.

I haven't tried it but this might work CUPS-PDF Package for Mac OS X | codepoetry
Old 19th November 2009 | Show parent
  #27
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg ➑️
You could report it and explain the situation and maybe also put in a link to a thread or post on this forum, or to other threads/post where you've pointed out problems. In this way they can also see the pic's you added.
I did just that (2 days ago already).

- Sascha
Old 19th November 2009 | Show parent
  #28
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🎧 15 years
And fwiw, most of the export problems seem to be gone indeed ever since I trashed my preferences. But there's quite some issues remaining inside the score section...
And as said, trashing preferences isn't all that much fun, either.

Regarding the jazz font issue, I think it's a rather lame excuse to say that TTF is an MS format. OSX is supposed to supprt TTFs - and well, almost all the other apps that you need fonts for in one way or the other accept the jazz font just fine (read: using it somewhere else things look the same as under Windows), so this is most likely a Logic issue.
Besides, as has been said, Apple is breaking their own OS conventions on so many levels (especially in their "Pro" application line), it's quite tough to believe.

And finally, folks, please, you can really stop telling me I should rather get a full scoring package such as Sibelius or Finale. I do know that these can do a better job for most scoring things. But I'm only doing some rather compact things (these days it's like two handful of jingles and underscores for a theatre revue), mostly lead sheet style for a 4-5 person band, so I'm absolutely happy with what Logic offers, just that I'd prefer the functions to work properly.

Btw, there's even some things that Logic can do which, say, Sibelius can't. As an example: Let's suppose you have a 4 part horn section, then a number of 8th notes that all the horns are playing. Now you want to have those 8ths legato, hence adding "arches" (is that the proper english word? In german it's "Bindebogen") between them. In Logic, you can select all the 8th notes in all the systems simultaneously and use the KC to add arches, in Sibelius (at least that's what a friend, quite a Sibelius expert, told me) this has to be done separately for each voice. Things like that are a lot more important to me than whatever professional layout.

Anyway, does anybody know of an alternative for the jazz font that one can use globally?
(Ah well, fwiw, it's absolutely stupid that you have to select these fonts globally - this should absolutely be a song setting)

Regards
Sascha
Old 19th November 2009 | Show parent
  #29
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broken ➑️
A way around needing to export to make a PDF could be one of those virtual PDF printers - then just print from Logic straight to the virtual printer.

I haven't tried it but this might work CUPS-PDF Package for Mac OS X | codepoetry
Maybe I misunderstand what you discuss here, but if you want to export score to .pdf, just press Print, then select preview, followed by "Save as...".
Old 19th November 2009 | Show parent
  #30
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gsilbers's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
maybe try Welcome to the VI Control Forum! Musicians helping Musicians!

they are more into scoring functions than here.
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