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ECC vs. non ECC memory
Old 30th April 2009
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ECC vs. non ECC memory

What is the advantage of running ECC memory? Is it worth paying extra for ECC memory? The Computer is a dual 2.3ghz Mac G5 that takes DDR 2 Ram. If it's been asked before I apologize to all offended.
=nick=
Old 1st May 2009
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nothing?
Old 1st May 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilalshabazz ➡️
What is the advantage of running ECC memory? Is it worth paying extra for ECC memory? The Computer is a dual 2.3ghz Mac G5 that takes DDR 2 Ram.
ECC memory does error checking and supposedly has higher latencey as a result. It's usually only required for server boards and sometimes dual socket boards. No advantage and you shouldn't try and use it if your board/machine doesn't specifically require it.
Old 2nd May 2009 | Show parent
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Thank you
Old 14th January 2021 | Show parent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alndln ➡️
ECC memory does error checking and supposedly has higher latencey as a result. It's usually only required for server boards and sometimes dual socket boards. No advantage and you shouldn't try and use it if your board/machine doesn't specifically require it.
Please excuse the rehash but I was curious after reading this raised
some concerns. https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstech...r-pcs/%3famp=1

The report initially describes and quotes Mr. Torvalds’ contempt for Intel’s refusal to support error correcting ECC memory which apparently impacts his interest with server hardware, computational computing and other non-home theater related tasks. But later discussed are claims, though unspecified, where consumers-presumably home users-can also suffer from non-ECC memory generated errors.

Thus, if the lack of ECC memory would leave the computer audiophile vulnerable to errors, however infrequent, in what form would they be? Could they manifest as permanent audible “clicks” during the re-digitizing of music in 24 bit audio and/or when downloaded from stores like https://www.hdtracks.com/ ?

Has anyone experienced this? If not perhaps because such errors may be even more noticeable and more frequently occurring from much more common be still respectably sounding 16 bit audio?

OTOH, would such errors be more noticeable if downloading or playing 1080p or especially 4K video, though both requiring far more digital bandwidth (e.g. bit depth?) than even 24 bit audio? However, the ears are likely more sensitive than the eyes to digital audio errors.

In any case, do AMD brand Ryzen CPUs and motherboards support ECC memory?

And which if any other motherboard brands do also?

But if so would such consumer desktop systems tend to create more heat induced fan noise than desktops with comparable Intel CPUs and motherboards performing the same kinds of work loads, such as 1080p video editing-and full length movie playbacks via https://jriver.com/overview.html ?
Old 14th January 2021 | Show parent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966 ➡️

Thus, if the lack of ECC memory would leave the computer audiophile vulnerable to errors, however infrequent, in what form would they be?
application freezing/crashing - system freezing / BSOD

In simple terms; ECC == long term application stability.
-based on experriencing what happens when you try to run demanding server applications on desktop pc hardware vs dedicated server hardware in a number of scenario's over weeks/months of operation.



Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966
AMD brand Ryzen CPUs and motherboards support ECC memory?
according to AMD:
Quote:
ECC is not disabled. It works, but not validated for our consumer client platform.
Old 15th January 2021
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Apple 'required' ECC ram in all those machines. Only some of the later Mac Pro's can use non-ECC ram. Didn't have my G5 long enough to need to upgrade it so I never got to test it. Might work, or it might just beep at you.
Old 7th February 2021 | Show parent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966 ➡️
Please excuse the rehash but I was curious after reading this raised some concerns. .... In any case, do AMD brand Ryzen CPUs and motherboards support ECC memory?
...
Late to the party here, but I do have some answers and comments:

About this time in 2020, I built a Win10 DAW/NLE machine with an AMD 3950X on an ASRock X570 Creator motherboard. That specific board supports ECC RAM, and I briefly considered getting 128GB ECC for this build.

At the time the Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200-C16 RAM was about $600 for 128GB. There was no comparable DDR4 ECC UDIMMs for under $900 at the time. Prices have softened since then, but still ECC DDR4 3200-C22 is all I can find at about $800 for 128GB, and I still haven't found any 3600MHz ECC at all. The problem became one of cost/benefit. My 2010 Mac Pro has 96GB of ECC RAM, and I installed that much because it was very cost-effective; around $150 for all 96GB.

After decades of working with consultants on multimillion dollar contracts who all are using laptops and desktops with no ECC RAM (thankfully without *any* data integrity incidents that weren't caused my humans) I have a very low sense of urgency and willingness to invest in ECC RAM.
Old 7th February 2021 | Show parent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaGary ➡️
Late to the party here, but I do have some answers and comments:

About this time in 2020, I built a Win10 DAW/NLE machine with an AMD 3950X on an ASRock X570 Creator motherboard. That specific board supports ECC RAM, and I briefly considered getting 128GB ECC for this build.

At the time the Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200-C16 RAM was about $600 for 128GB. There was no comparable DDR4 ECC UDIMMs for under $900 at the time. Prices have softened since then, but still ECC DDR4 3200-C22 is all I can find at about $800 for 128GB, and I still haven't found any 3600MHz ECC at all. The problem became one of cost/benefit. My 2010 Mac Pro has 96GB of ECC RAM, and I installed that much because it was very cost-effective; around $150 for all 96GB.

After decades of working with consultants on multimillion dollar contracts who all are using laptops and desktops with no ECC RAM (thankfully without *any* data integrity incidents that weren't caused my humans) I have a very low sense of urgency and willingness to invest in ECC RAM.
Well, the nitpicking observer (who owns even a laptop with ECC) might point out that if these people all run without ECC they are not only missing error correction, they also lack error reporting. So they can't know how many memory errors they had, much less what those errors did.

Having observed memory errors for many years I notice a pattern that there are usually no errors, even over years, but suddenly an event such as overheating causes errors. With ECC you will be notified and can do something about it.

Another problem is a memory module that simply breaks, but slowly. It will be a threat to your data integrity if you don't have the reporting from ECC.

I agree that prices on DDR4 unreg ECC are a bit disappointing right now. DDR3 registered ECC is dirt cheap as you say.
Old 7th February 2021 | Show parent
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966 ➡️
Thus, if the lack of ECC memory would leave the computer audiophile vulnerable to errors, however infrequent, in what form would they be? Could they manifest as permanent audible “clicks” during the re-digitizing of music in 24 bit audio and/or when downloaded from stores like https://www.hdtracks.com/ ?

Has anyone experienced this? If not perhaps because such errors may be even more noticeable and more frequently occurring from much more common be still respectably sounding 16 bit audio?
Memory errors can cause any imaginable kind of condition, but I think audio dropouts are unlikely.

The problem with memory errors is that they can silently scramble the data on your disk(s) - via the filesystem write cache, which is in main memory. You flip a bit, you have corrupt data on disk. The real trick here is that filesystem metadata ("which block belongs where") can be scrambled that way, in which case you have corrupted files today that you didn't even touch for months. Or lose the entire filesystem or an entire directory and find junk data.

This is really bad for people who do one-shot (or few-shot) backups since they are likely to overwrite all good backups with the corrupted current version before they notice. Tape backup for the win

Quote:
In any case, do AMD brand Ryzen CPUs and motherboards support ECC memory?

And which if any other motherboard brands do also?
Yes, most of the AMD motherboards recommended on this forum support ECC (unbuffered, not registered) with all the higher end AMD CPUs. This is usually pointed out prominently in the specs.

Quote:
But if so would such consumer desktop systems tend to create more heat induced fan noise than desktops with comparable Intel CPUs and motherboards performing the same kinds of work loads, such as 1080p video editing-and full length movie playbacks via https://jriver.com/overview.html ?
ECC memory takes a bit more power, about 10% more. But overall power consumption of memory is very low, so this won't make the fan any louder.

Putting faster memory at higher voltage, which is a sport on this audio forum, drives up the consumption much more.
Old 7th February 2021 | Show parent
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alndln ➡️
ECC memory does error checking and supposedly has higher latencey as a result. It's usually only required for server boards and sometimes dual socket boards. No advantage and you shouldn't try and use it if your board/machine doesn't specifically require it.
The latency is higher for registered RAM, not for ECC RAM. Two different, independent technical properties.

As pointed out, you can usually not buy ECC (unbuffered.unregistered) that is clocked higher than the CPU spec says it can drive. For AMD 5000 that is 3200 MHz. 3600 MHz, even if supported by the RAM, is overclocking the memory controller. So you can't buy 3600 MHz ECC yet. Not enough people want both error correction and overclocking.
Old 8th February 2021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt ➡️
The latency is higher for registered RAM, not for ECC RAM. Two different, independent technical properties.

As pointed out, you can usually not buy ECC (unbuffered.unregistered) that is clocked higher than the CPU spec says it can drive. For AMD 5000 that is 3200 MHz. 3600 MHz, even if supported by the RAM, is overclocking the memory controller. So you can't buy 3600 MHz ECC yet. Not enough people want both error correction and overclocking.
So if I understand correctly, the most frequent (?) cause of bit corruption (data loss?) of audio and video files are bit flips occurring in storage drive’s cache memory? If yes, does this happen mostly during writing or equally often during writing and reading?

In any case, however, can ECC memory-though which is all but exclusively available on AMD motherboards (?)-provide prevention and/or compensation against these HDD cache memory write created bit errors?

If yes, then to prevent such errors in 16 bit CD track rips saved to uncompressed WAV files and 720p Youtube downloads, how much ECC memory should I install into an AMD motherboard?

While I never do any gaming and much insist on quiet cool computers rather than over clocked ones (save for one desktop for occasionally 1080p video editing), on average how much might a 15” laptop with an AMD processor equivalent to a four core Intel Tiger Lake CPU AND the above prescribed amount of ECC memory cost?

Since Microcenter doesn’t custom build laptops, could you recommend any brand name or custom builder?

Indeed, as you may have surmised, I do multiple backups of my data, but unless it’s stored under idea climatic conditions to prevent sticky shed syndrome, mag tape data storage seems impractical, unless you periodically copy backed up data on same to new mag tape stock.

One more problem? How likely are bit errors to occur repeatedly if I then copy those Youtube files from the laptop with ECC memory which downloaded them to a USB external drive? And then copying those files from the external drive to an HDD on a desktop pc? Won’t more bit errors be created in each new copy?

If yes, would the only practical way to avoid successive bit errors would be to move NOT copy the downloaded youtube files from the laptop’s HDD to the external drive-and then do likewise from the external drive to the desktop’s HDD?

But how likely would bit errors be created merely from moving NOT copying the files?

OTOH, as I believe you had earlier pointed out how likely and often would bit errors be noticed from uncompressed rips of CD tracks or even from downloads of high sample rate audio recordings from stores like https://www.hdtracks.com/ ?
Old 8th February 2021 | Show parent
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt ➡️
Memory errors can cause any imaginable kind of condition, but I think audio dropouts are unlikely.

The problem with memory errors is that they can silently scramble the data on your disk(s) - via the filesystem write cache, which is in main memory. You flip a bit, you have corrupt data on disk. The real trick here is that filesystem metadata ("which block belongs where") can be scrambled that way, in which case you have corrupted files today that you didn't even touch for months. Or lose the entire filesystem or an entire directory and find junk data. This is really bad for people who do one-shot (or few-shot) backups since they are likely to overwrite all good backups with the corrupted current version before they notice. Tape backup for the win
Speaking of HDD cache memory errors, as it happens one of my very old (~ 185GB) Seagate or Maxtor desktop storage HDDs is nearing its capacity limits. Is there a particular 1, 1.5 or 2TB enterprise grade 7200rpm HDD model that has both exceptionally low idling noise levels?

And has one that can somehow offer extremely low write and/or read cache memory errors?
Old 8th February 2021 | Show parent
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966 ➡️
...

In any case, however, can ECC memory-though which is all but exclusively available on AMD motherboards (?)-provide prevention and/or compensation against these HDD cache memory write created bit errors?

...
Intel only support ECC on Xeon server chips + thus you'll only find it on server mobo's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966
Mr. Torvalds’ contempt for Intel ..
.. and Linus doesn't what to shell out for a 'proper' intel based workstation (eg a server mobo+cpu in a desktop case)


Drive caches normally use a memory type called SRAM, which is not prone to the same issues as DRAM.

The 'filesystem write cache' is normally data being held in the computer's main memory before being sent to the disk.

The cache on the disk is self-mamanged by the device itself.
Old 8th February 2021
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If my DAW computer doubled as an air traffic control system I would use ECC memory.
Old 8th February 2021
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Yes

but not sure I'd want to use your air traffic control system though ..
Old 8th February 2021 | Show parent
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snoskit ➡️
Drive caches normally use a memory type called SRAM, which is not prone to the same issues as DRAM. The 'file system write cache' is normally data being held in the computer's main memory before being sent to the disk. The cache on the disk is self-managed by the device itself.
Okay, so bit errors that can corrupt audio data written to and read from HDDs? If yes, good news for a change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoskit ➡️
Intel only support ECC on Xeon server chips + thus you'll only find it on server mobo's...........in a desktop case)
And no Intel cool and quiet running CPU for desktops, much less laptops?
Old 8th February 2021 | Show parent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966 ➡️
So if I understand correctly, the most frequent (?) cause of bit corruption (data loss?) of audio and video files are bit flips occurring in storage drive’s cache memory? If yes, does this happen mostly during writing or equally often during writing and reading?

In any case, however, can ECC memory-though which is all but exclusively available on AMD motherboards (?)-provide prevention and/or compensation against these HDD cache memory write created bit errors?
No data is available on what is the most common or average reason for data corruption.

And to clarify, I am talking about the write cache that the main CPU holds in main memory. Not the RAM on the disk.

BTW, the disks themselves have ECC. A lot of it.

Quote:
Since Microcenter doesn’t custom build laptops, could you recommend any brand name or custom builder?
Unfortunately ECC enabled laptops are rare. Mine is a Thinkpad P50. I think the Dell 5510 and successors can do it, too. Never seen an AMD laptop that does ECC.
Old 8th February 2021 | Show parent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966 ➡️
And no Intel cool and quiet running CPU for desktops, much less laptops?
No, that is a wrong assumption.

The Xeon chips for one-processor workstations are practically identical to the desktop chips, including heat levels, except they do ECC (unbuffered).

The other kind of Xeon is for multiprocessor systems (like old Mac Pros). And they usually do ECC registered memory.
Old 8th February 2021 | Show parent
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966 ➡️
Okay, so bit errors that can corrupt audio data written to and read from HDDs? If yes, good news for a change.
just to simplify here - data corrupted in non-eec memory can be written to a disk (any type of disk).
That error has now been 'baked' into your data (eg your audio track).

IMHO you really don't have to be worried about the cache memory on storage devices themselves, eg HDD's.
Old 8th February 2021 | Show parent
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt ➡️
No, that is a wrong assumption.

The Xeon chips for one-processor workstations are practically identical to the desktop chips, including heat levels, except they do ECC (unbuffered).

The other kind of Xeon is for multiprocessor systems (like old Mac Pros). And they usually do ECC registered memory.
But no multicore Xeons with comparable heat levels to mulitcore desktop chips?
Old 8th February 2021 | Show parent
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snoskit ➡️
just to simplify here - data corrupted in non-eec memory can be written to a disk (any type of disk). That error has now been 'baked' into your data (eg your audio track).
Apparently, there are Lenovo and/or recent Dell series laptops that do have ECC memory. And if 4 core Xeon chips run as cool and quietly as do, say, 4 core Comet Lake chips (except perhaps briefly while doing 1080p video editing) then I have ECC memory in my next desktop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoskit ➡️
IMHO you really don't have to be worried about the cache memory on storage devices themselves, eg HDD's.
Yes, and as you and uOpt said HDDs and SSDs have lots of error correction.
Old 8th February 2021 | Show parent
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt ➡️
....... This is really bad for people who do one-shot (or few-shot) backups since they are likely to overwrite all good backups with the corrupted current version before they notice. Tape backup for the win
Off topic, but I had no idea that mag tape data storage was still so prevalent and for many applications has long eclipsed HDDs, sales of which are rapidly declining. https://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/...-magnetic-tape I better stock up on a few 1 .5 or 2TB enterprise drives while supplies and reasonable prices last.
Old 8th February 2021 | Show parent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966 ➡️
But no multicore Xeons with comparable heat levels to mulitcore desktop chips?
No, I was talking about multi-processor systems, not multi-core.

Two or more CPU sockets in one mainboard.

Xeons for one-CPU mainboards are identical to desktop CPUs except they support ECC.
Old 8th February 2021 | Show parent
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt ➡️
No, I was talking about multi-processor systems, not multi-core.

Two or more CPU sockets in one mainboard.

Xeons for one-CPU mainboards are identical to desktop CPUs except they support ECC.
Thanks for acquainting me with the obvious advantages of Xeon processors, though it seems strange why they aren’t more popular with consumers, especially those opting for desktops. Certainly, a strong choice for my next desktop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...icroprocessors

Here’s an Intel Xeon Mobile pdf from 2017

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/ww...mily-brief.pdf

But here’s a short review on the then cheapest HP Xeon laptop from 2020.
https://www.techradar.com/news/the-c...-editing-tasks

Pricey but as I don’t buy computer hardware very often if it really can do 1080p video editing without crazy amounts of fan noise I’d be interested. Any thoughts on this?
Old 8th February 2021 | Show parent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966 ➡️
Thanks for acquainting me with the obvious advantages of Xeon processors, though it seems strange why they aren’t more popular with consumers, especially those opting for desktops. Certainly, a strong choice for my next desktop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...icroprocessors

Here’s an Intel Xeon Mobile pdf from 2017

https://www.intel.com/content/dam/ww...mily-brief.pdf

But here’s a short review on the then cheapest HP Xeon laptop from 2020.
https://www.techradar.com/news/the-c...-editing-tasks

Pricey but as I don’t buy computer hardware very often if it really can do 1080p video editing without crazy amounts of fan noise I’d be interested. Any thoughts on this?
Those Xeons won't have less fan noise than their non-Xeon equivalent.

As for ECC memory, just having the Xeon is not sufficient. You also need to have a motherboard made with an ECC-enabled chipset, and the BIOS needs to support ECC, too.

According to this
https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c05994905
that particular HP supports ECC memory.

Looks like a nice laptop with both NVME and SATA HD. But it will be bulky and make regular noise.
Old 9th February 2021
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I was reading that ECC has around 33% less bit slip somewhere.. I'm including it in a build I'm working on at the moment but that build is going to be doing some potentially critical measurement tasks. Intel, AMD and all those other big tech big boys should just release one big mega super tech we can all work on for free.
Old 9th February 2021 | Show parent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Dunnett ➡️
I was reading that ECC has around 33% less bit slip somewhere.. ..
I'd like to read that reference. The 'bit slip' term usually arises in the context of serial data communications where the synch between transmitter and receiver isn't stable.
Old 9th February 2021 | Show parent
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uOpt ➡️
Those Xeons won't have less fan noise than their non-Xeon equivalent.

As for ECC memory, just having the Xeon is not sufficient. You also need to have a motherboard made with an ECC-enabled chipset, and the BIOS needs to support ECC, too.

According to this https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c05994905
that particular HP supports ECC memory.

Looks like a nice laptop with both NVME and SATA HD. But it will be bulky and make regular noise.
Happily, it didn’t take me long to conclude before your reply that a desktop, equal to or slightly larger than a mini-ATX, suits my present and future needs far better than any laptop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_ATX#Noise BUT are there motherboards for Xeon CPUs which have ECC memory chipsets and are ECC BIOS compliant for mini-ATX desktop cases?

If yes, then I can have Microcenter build the desktop with larger diameter slower spinning fans than even those in my old Dell ATX desktops, and radiators (heat pipes?) will further cool the Xeon CPU and/or GPU card processors. Plus I think there’s special acoustical materials that can be added to the case interior which if placed correctly can absorb much of any remaining fan noise.

The next computer I spend serious money on will control the HT system I’ll build around it. No laptops these days have BD drives which I need to play BD and DVD movies. JRiver https://jriver.com/index.html will play the discs feed video via HDMI to my OLED TV and feed decoded DTS MA audio via USB to a multi channel DAC like this one https://www.exasound.com/Products/e688-channelDAC.aspx to feed my 5.1 surround system.

Unlike most of even the best standalone BD players, with BD decrypters like https://www.redfox.bz/en/anydvdhd.html running in the background, JRiver also gives you full zoom and slow motion control, which can be lots of fun to play with.Add-ons like these allow full remote control. http://www.usbuirt.com/ https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Remotes#More

And a big plus is that with AnyDVD HD or other decrypters running, JRiver’s decoded audio can then be processed by room correction solutions like Dirac. https://www.exasound.com/Blog/tabid/...ery-Group.aspx

Best of all as discussed here with AnyDVD HD running there’s no need to rip and store the physical BD or DVD, not even for Dirac to process the audio for room correction.
https://www.avsforum.com/threads/jri...#post-58874520

Any holes in my royal master plan? Please share you thoughts.
Old 9th February 2021 | Show parent
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d1966 ➡️
Happily, it didn’t take me long to conclude before your reply that a desktop, equal to or slightly larger than a mini-ATX, suits my present and future needs far better than any laptop. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_ATX#Noise BUT are there motherboards for Xeon CPUs which have ECC memory chipsets and are ECC BIOS compliant for mini-ATX desktop cases?
[...]
Any holes in my royal master plan? Please share you thoughts.
Supermicro has several variants of the X12SCZ board, which are mini-ATX Xeon ECC capable. Getting a LGA1200 Xeon in stock anywhere might be a different matter. But then all attractive CPUs and GPUs are sold out everywhere...

I agree that watching Blu Rays in your player software of choice is the way to go.

You might have more luck with in-storeness in the AMD world. You can buy an older CPU now and put in a 5000 series later.
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