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Is Logic lagging behind the other DAWs?
Old 9th February 2009
  #1
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PheelTheMusic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Is Logic lagging behind the other DAWs?

Sorry for the inflammatory thread title but I am currently at a DAW crossroads and strongly considering a move to Logic. Well, at least I was until I did some research on here last night only find a list of Logic users' gripes a mile long. How are you pros handling the issues? Lack of non-destructive audio editing? Crippled fade tool? "7-Bit fader resolution"? The inability to select and move more than one track at a time? This is a non-inclusive list of complaints from the "What do you want in Logic 8.1 thread"...

"Arrange:
The ability to arrange tracks in the mix window (like PT)
The ability to apply every AU plug-in to selected audio regions within the arrange window/A 'Burn' feature that would apply all your plugins to the track, in place, leaving you with a 'finished' audio file that could be edited and move around
Fix the comping feature or at the very least allow users to turn it off
The ability to select and move more than one track at a time
Track-based folders like Cubase - as opposed to (or in addition to) the current region-based folder / Real folders like DP
When you bounce an instrument or processed audio track, that file should pop up on arrange window with new audio track
"Chunks" a la DP
Volume envelopes on regions
Fade handles on regions
A marquee tool (like in PT): Let me cut, fade, trim, etc, depending on where my cursor is over a given region, without having to go look for the right tool / "An easier way to work on audio regions"
Snap to Region
Arrange zooming refreshment bug fix
Melodyne like editing with Elastic pitch and time properties
An easier way to reveal when audio regions are stacked on top of one another and to rotate through them
Automatic color coding when recording or dropping samples to new tracks

Automation:
Mix/Automation "takes"
Consolidate the hyperdraw and automation confusion
Snapshot automation

Groups:
Better group implementation
Better group editing, including fades to groups (with tool in Arrange - not in Inspector)

EFX:
A Convolution Verb that can play true stereo files at 96k and 32 bit and generally sounds better than it does at the moment
Improved Deesser
Improved Exciter
Improved Limiter
Convolution based hardware simulation
New Guitar Amp

MIDI/Audio Instruments:

Multiple parameter lanes in the piano roll window
Easier to use arp's
Make EXS24 easier to set up
Fix Multi-channel Virtual Instruments
Make the arpeggiator play correctly when loop is on and I press play
A real x0x style pattern sequencer
Make it easier to convert CC's (like DP)
New Sampler
A new power synth
Ability to freeze multi-out instruments
Software Instrument MIDI out
MIDI playback plays early when PDC set to ALL. This needs to change...
More MIDI tools by building easily accessible environment type features into the application
Ultrabeat sequencer that accepts MIDI input and has multiple division setting options (like the hyper editor)
Better EXS or complete integration of Keymap into Logic
Hardware Controller for Ultrabeat

Audio
Sub-sample delay tools ala Eventide
An update to the audio window - ala Soundtrack Pro
Bring back "set audio filepath"
Non-destructive audio
A Warp feature / Beat Detective / "Elastic Audio - Like the one in Pro Tools, nothing innovative
64 bit support
Fix auto input monitoring
Easily assignable multi disk recording (a la Pro Tools): i.e tracks 1-24 to disk one, tracks 25-48 to disk two
An option to update the timestamps (SMPTE start position) of all of a project's audio files
Make bounce to mp3 work again
An update to the audio window - ala Soundtrack Pro
Put back the output select in the sample edit window
Get rid of Busses and leave only Aux's
Improved I/O delay handling, and management of outboard effects units (ping)
Add a "Flatten" (as in Live7) function in addition to "Freeze"
Ditch the sample editor and move functionality to the arrange window
The option for mono outputs
Finer fader resolution
Better time streching algos
Improve Strip Silence
Better meter reading
More Headroom
When I insert a I/O insert from the utilities menu and press solo in that channel.... fix mute-bug.
Most of Soundtrack Pro's abilities should be built into the Sample Editor (ambient noise print, etc)
Ability to Rewire Reason and Live with more ease

General
Make the GUI fit better on 13" MacBook screens.
Fix Paste Replace
Fix "return to last position" so the "position" doesn't constantly change to the last record in position
Playlists
Better performance and stability
Fix the mouse wheel zoom
Open up the bug tracking app to the public similar to those found on open source projects so folks can see what is being worked on


File related
Better track transfer/"Export tracks" with pan, volume, automation, and insert plugins
Improved OMF support"


"Midi timing? Still broken.
Tap tempo? Still broken.
Graphic glitches? Get used to'em
SMPTE scoring? Better learn the workarounds.
System overload and buffer noises? A fact of life.

Apple has yet to show any tangible proof that they care about this product. I believe they bought it to cannibalize technology for other apps, like Final Cut and Soundtrack "Pro" (sic). It's a shame. It's a disgrace. But it's a fact of life, and like most other first generation Logic users, all I can do is grumble and wait. Grumble and wait."
Old 9th February 2009
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
all daws/software have plusses and minuses.no perfect daw.
prolly never will be.
its up to us individually to decide which negatives we can live with.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #3
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1 ➡️
all daws/software have plusses and minuses.no perfect daw.
prolly never will be.
its up to us individually to decide which negatives we can live with.
Come on manning,just say it!!! EVERYTHING is lagging behind REAPER

Just ribbing you BTW, you still da man

manning hit it on the head. I dont consider Logic a Pro App just because Apple doesnt look at it that way and treats its PRO's with COMPLETE silence. Quite the opposite of DIGI

Steinberg will at least acknowlege you and ban you from their forums

NO ADC for hardware is killing Logic for me here BTW

What DAW are you using now??
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanabit ➡️
Come on manning,just say it!!! EVERYTHING is lagging behind REAPER

Just ribbing you BTW, you still da man

manning hit it on the head. I dont consider Logic a Pro App just because Apple doesnt look at it that way and treats its PRO's with COMPLETE silence. Quite the opposite of DIGI

Steinberg will at least acknowlege you and ban you from their forums

NO ADC for hardware is killing Logic for me here BTW

What DAW are you using now??

did you see Peeders videos on manual delay compensation for hardware inserts?
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #5
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by lllubi ➡️
did you see Peeders videos on manual delay compensation for hardware inserts?
Didnt no Peeder did one for Logic?? Ill look

Manual Delay Compensation in 2009, think about it, crazy.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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Pepe Ortega's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Many of your complainst works fine, just RTFM. Many other dissapear on 8.0.2 upgrade. Some of them will be great features, even for PT , DP cubase and so on.... Honestly , No Daw is perfect.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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🎧 15 years
shanabit
lol.
actually to be fair...from what i see logic does have nice instruments etc etc ??
and i acknowledge the fact its very popular with lots of musicians.
for its very detailed midi features obviously historically etc etc .
it really depends on ones needs etc.
if i was on mac i would prolly look closely at logic express edition for midi..
or pg's realband if it came out for mac. then prolly reaper on the audio side.
i personally would find it a difficult decision which to buy//use if i got a mac.
a very difficult decision in fact.
if the baby mac came out cheap with quad cores i might get one to play with...
when i'm more flush with buks.
dam pension..lol.
overall to be fair i think anyone would acknowledge that logic does have a ton of features
built in.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
If this list is up to date, then you should just consider Samplitude Pro (under bootcamp if on a Mac), and get on with making music

Greg
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #9
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1 ➡️
shanabit
lol.

or pg's realband if it came out for mac.
I've been reading your posts for maybe oh, 5 or 6 years now and I've never commented, but for some reason I feel compelled to speak up..

I can count maybe a good half dozen audio forums that I frequent, and you are the only one that has ever touted "real band pg" or whatever it is...Do you work for
"Real Band".. ??? honestly, do you have any affiliation with them?

I mean, dude, if its the same program I'm thinking, I worked with a version of that back when I had a 486 and Win 95, and it was pretty lame back then.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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uncle duncan's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
If you're considering DP, the graphic pitch correction is a useful feature, at least if you record vocals and want them in tune but don't want to hassle with a plugin to get them there. DP is also really good at crossfades and stretching/shrinking of individual notes. In other words, the audio editing is intuitive and the GUI makes sense from a tape-based perspective. The latest version of DP gives you the option of using Broadcast Wave format, which is compatible with PT. However, for VI's Logic rules.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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🎧 15 years
captain54
hey mate feel free to speak up !!
but be prepared for a friendly debate...lol.
Realband is brand new. i'm still looking at it due to price.
have you ever looked at it ??
if not...assume i'm a total lying idiot (which i'm not..)...then
go to the pg forums and hear what users are saying about it.
or ask users if you think i'm a dope.

heres just one users comments of loads of comments...
PG Music Forums: Thanks Peter for such a great program! More Real Tracks Please Please Please....

actually it was hearing some of harvey ghersts examples useing RB that prompted
me to delve into it. cos i was sceptical...and i'm sure harvey (due to his experience ) could slay mine and a lot of others skills.
somewhere in the GS new products section if i remember are his comments about it.

ps..you pay for the lawyer and i'll swear on a stack of bibles i have no affiliation with pg or any other vendor for that matter. an apology is in order i suggest respectfully.
(i'm a retired puter engr who writes songs for fun. my recommendations are totally independent based on my own evaluations.)
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1 ➡️
captain54


an apology is in order i suggest respectfully.
(i'm a retired puter engr who writes songs for fun. my recommendations are totally independent based on my own evaluations.)
Hey, take is easy tiger, I wasn't accusing I was making an inquiry
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
captain54 .
actually i'm a pussy cat mate..lol.

ok i found harveys comments on realband. and his audio examples.
a new pgmusic product..REALBAND.
heres a realband video of some features.
YouTube - RealTracks Sets 20-39 for Band-in-a-Box and RealBand video 1 of 2
pgmusic has more vids. n loads of music examples in different rok n country n many other styles. you might want to check out the names of some of the brilliant session players involved.


re .."lame"..i suspect you prolly tried an early version of biab done years back.
if your useing midi traks, and a cheesy sounding synth or sound chip in a computer..
any daw software playing back...whether logic or pt or whatever will sound cheesy or lame.
cos midi data has no sound.
to hear hi quality sound you need to use a high quality outboard midi module.
eg a fancy workstation. (or plug in.)
some people like the roland sonic cell or ketron product for cheaper

god bless to you.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #14
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PheelTheMusic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle duncan ➡️
If you're considering DP, the graphic pitch correction is a useful feature, at least if you record vocals and want them in tune but don't want to hassle with a plugin to get them there. DP is also really good at crossfades and stretching/shrinking of individual notes. In other words, the audio editing is intuitive and the GUI makes sense from a tape-based perspective. The latest version of DP gives you the option of using Broadcast Wave format, which is compatible with PT. However, for VI's Logic rules.
Thanks for the suggestion! I'm actually a DP user right now and I just purchased my upgrade to version 6 from MOTU!

I never gave DP enough credit until I shopped around and saw what was out there. It always gets a bad rap as an audio editor but what is better at that task besides PT 8 maybe? And for MIDI it rules right alongside logic.

DP for me is a perfect fit but it's the compatibility issue that's killing me. I wanted to switch to Logic so I could bring projects into some other places that are Logic based. There aren't many DP facilities out there... Maybe I'll just get logic too to have the option to check it out and then load projects into there before bringing them to another place. Anyone selling their Logic copy???
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #15
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1 ➡️

re .."lame"..i suspect you prolly tried an early version of biab done years back.
if your useing midi traks, and a cheesy sounding synth or sound chip in a computer..
any daw software playing back...whether logic or pt or whatever will sound cheesy or lame.
cos midi data has no sound.
to hear hi quality sound you need to use a high quality outboard midi module.
eg a fancy workstation. (or plug in.)
No, I mean "lame" as in it reminds me of an 80's casio or yamaha keyboard that would trigger the bass part or the accompaniment with a touch of a finger on the lower end of the keyboard.

I listened to Harvey's track and the YouTube video, and I'm sorry man, it's not my cup of tea. You can hear the mechanical-ness of the chord changes a mile away. I'm sure it has some use somewhere, and I'm sure someone with some chops could put out some cool stuff with that thing.

Either, way if you find that "Real Band" rocks your world, but all means, ignore me.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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H-Rezz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Ummm ? That thread is a wish list , it ranges anywhere from people not knowing how to use Logic , to outlandish features that aren't in any DAW , too gripes why their old computer doesn't run Logic 8 as well as 7 , to why cann't Logic make me a cup of coffee .... heh

In amongst all that there are a few great suggestions by people who know what Logic is capable of and how it can be improved in the next update
Old 10th February 2009
  #17
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whinecellar's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Name a DAW that isn't lagging behind others in some area. Sure, Logic has its weak spots like any, but its strengths are still highly unique and keep me coming back for more...

IMHO, people just hate Apple's deafening silence (myself included) as it's not very reassuring to professionals. Lots of folks went on about how "Logic is dead" just before version 8 was announced, and it was a MAJOR advance, seemingly out of the blue. The same thing is happening again; it's been a year and a half, and folks are hitting the panic button.

I do know for a fact that Logic remains a much higher priority than people think. It's being worked on, they do care about the product, etc. - it's just an unfortunate fact that Apple's corporate policy is what it is.

I would wager that whatever's up their sleeves, it will take people by surprise (again). I for one would be utterly lost if I had to switch to another app - I've made my living on Logic for 16 years now, and there's still nothing else out there that lets me work the way I do in Logic - quirks and all ;-)
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by whinecellar ➡️
Name a DAW that isn't lagging behind others in some area. Sure, Logic has its weak spots like any, but its strengths are still highly unique and keep me coming back for more...

IMHO, people just hate Apple's deafening silence (myself included) as it's not very reassuring to professionals. Lots of folks went on about how "Logic is dead" just before version 8 was announced, and it was a MAJOR advance, seemingly out of the blue. The same thing is happening again; it's been a year and a half, and folks are hitting the panic button.

I do know for a fact that Logic remains a much higher priority than people think. It's being worked on, they do care about the product, etc. - it's just an unfortunate fact that Apple's corporate policy is what it is.

I would wager that whatever's up their sleeves, it will take people by surprise (again). I for one would be utterly lost if I had to switch to another app - I've made my living on Logic for 16 years now, and there's still nothing else out there that lets me work the way I do in Logic - quirks and all ;-)

I disagree that Logic v8 was a "major advance."

The game-changing method that they employed was to simply throw in everything they and emagic ever made for audio under the sun. Every loop library, every VI, from legacy to new.. from evp88 to sculpture (I remember having to pay for an exsp to exs sampler upgrade) then, charge only $499 for the whole thing with full surround capability, premium plugs like space designer, etc, which you could only previously get in the "pro" versions of 6 and 7. Essentially they threw about $2500 of software in there if you went by the prices from just a year or two before.. even more if you came from a legacy express setup as I did.

So, this method kept them competitive in the market, and helped them sell hardware- which is apple's main goal. For Logic users who were considering jumping ship (myself included), it was so much added value for musicians and composers that I couldent pass it up.

No doubt, it's packed with features already, but other than quick-swipe comping (which I do like a lot), the DAW itself did not really change. Just the layout and workflow a bit.

it was a step backwards in efficiency, too. That was really my one big disappointment, since I'm on a dual 1.8 G5 that ran a lot more tracks and VI's back when I was running Version 6.

Otherwise, it's kept me fat and happy for the time being, and I, along with a gazillion other Logic users, are wondering what Apple's future plans are for their DAW- will it be dumbed down, or will it incorporate some real game-changing features and utilities?
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #19
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H-Rezz's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by astronmr20 ➡️

No doubt, it's packed with features already, but other than quick-swipe comping (which I do like a lot), the DAW itself did not really change. Just the layout and workflow a bit.
What about sample accuracy ?
Tab to transient ?
Auto buss creation ?
Streamlined add tracks ?
Time stretch on the arrange ?
Automatic punch in ?
Recording from busses ?
Beat -mapping ?
Quickswipe ?
extra editing tools ?
Enhanced Automation ?
Custom shortcuts ?
must i go on ?
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #20
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
captain54.
re RB.
for someone who is a purist and wants total control to do everything from scratch
in a song... point made.
bear in mind these are prolly early days for RB.
however for me it shows the way forward in the next phase of daws.
ie...incorporating lots of real session insdtruments in daw software.
and useing sophisticated programming techniques.
ive a feeling this will be a major theme in lots of daw software in the coming years.
there is a MAIN REASON WHY.
viz...lots of people around the world wanting to create songs without access to
session musicians or lacking the funds.
think of the lone songwriter for example who needs a scratch pad n needs to get
the song fleshed out fast without spending lots of time tracking.
and needs some session band to create with.

as i said my main concern is price as i have other commitments.
but whats already happening is people are useing it for fast bed trak creation ..
drums/bass/guitar/other rhythm instruments etc. ie like a rhythm section of traks
which they can then import into their daw of choice and manipulate.
(manipulation will remove the mechanical aspect).

just like the first product,years ago... biab... some people will like it and some wont.
i would prolly use it for fast bed trak creation.
by the way the earlier biab product you feel is "lame" has a huge installed
base all over the world. read the huge guest pages at pg and user comments.
so some must like it. just google for zillions of links etc.
if you dig youll find its more than just a casio approach.
ive seen loads of times...people diss it until they dug into it. and start working with the tools.
if i were on mac i would prolly use it plus logic express. and reaper.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #21
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Firechild's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Logic is not lagging behind, but...
Logic was approx 3 years ahead of the competition three years ago but now they are side by side with the other DAW:s outthere.
Despite the graphical news with Logic 8 not much is actually changed under the hood since Logic 7 but due to the extremely smart programming from the Germans Logic is still one of the Best DAW:s.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #22
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elmolemon's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaTone ➡️
I think people just can't use Logic because it's a bit complicated and takes some time to learn. I personally feel it does everything I want it to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firechild ➡️
Logic is not lagging behind, but...
Logic was approx 3 years ahead of the competition three years ago but now they are side by side with the other DAW:s outthere.

+10

Logic is an extremely powerful DAW! Of course i wish that Apple would be a lil' more active, but for it's price Logic is UNBEATABLE!


...if you can handle it!
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #23
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colinmiller's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The fact that Apple wasn't even at the NAMM show makes me question how much effort they are putting into Logic. And PT 8 with it's new MIDI setup fixes a lot of the reasons why I do production stuff in Logic and not PT. if Apple doesn't do some updates soon, I may switch over since it would be more convenient to do everything in one DAW.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #24
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R3altruth's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Too bad you're not on a PC... Cakewalk Sonar honesty has most of what you asked for...
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #25
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmiller ➡️
The fact that Apple wasn't even at the NAMM show makes me question how much effort they are putting into Logic.
Don´t. They are not even going to attent Mac world anymore. Their reasoning behind this apparently, is that tradeshows doesn´t play the role they used to anymore.

They are doing their own promotion campaigns though, like the tour with Waves a while ago. To OP there´s alot of people that use Logic professionally, for any more specified questions you might have I would suggest you to post in a dedicated Logic forum like LUG. Lot´s of experienced users there. Other than that, download the manual and have look and most importantly, try to demo it for yourself.

Apple - Logic Studio - In Action
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #26
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nativeaudio's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by PheelTheMusic ➡️
Well, at least I was until I did some research on here last night only find a list of Logic users' gripes a mile long.
That looks like the list I compiled based on what people have suggested in the first pages of that thread, and it's just a list - without any comments about a la 'this can actually be done in Logic, just in a slightly different way' or similar comments. There's stuff on that list that doesn't make sense (to me) at all, things that Logic already can do as well, but the purpose of making that list was only to list what people had suggested: not to evaluate it.

I did a similar thing when I compiled a score wish list (and a survey) a while ago, and to edit a long list of requests into a list that makes sense takes a lot of time - which I don't have at the moment...


Btw - that score poll (linked above) is closing very soon... vote now if you want to participate!

ALmost half of the wishes I hear from people in forums (or in Logic workshops) are wishes for features Logic already have in one way or the other. Still - I actually think Logic is lagging behind in some critical areas - but see no reason why Apple wouldn't be interested in dealing with that. I'm sure they do.

Logic is also ahead other DAWs in some ways, and owned by Apple - meaning that there's a great potential in Logic - a potential that I don't see in other DAWs.
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #27
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whinecellar's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by astronmr20 ➡️
I disagree that Logic v8 was a "major advance."

it was a step backwards in efficiency, too.
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then ;-) I have a 2-page printout (small text) of all kinds of changes, fixes, optimizations, etc. that came with Logic 8. The app was essentially rewritten from the ground up. I'd include the list here but I don't have an electronic copy unfortunately - it was handed out at a private meeting with the national Logic reps during the Logic/Apogee/Euphonix tour a year ago...

As for the "step backwards in efficiency" I'd have to disagree there too. Certainly it might be an issue on older hardware, but on newer (Intel) boxes, things took a MAJOR leap forward as of Logic 8.0.2 and OSX 10.5.3 - my usual torture test went from 48 channels to 72 with those 2 updates.

Where we DO agree is that Logic is far from perfect. There are just as many oddball little (and not so little) issues that bother me that have been there for years, and they drive me nuts. Again though, there are just as many things I hate about every other DAW I've ever used. None of them are perfect - at the end of the day you have to pick what works best for your needs. For me, the grass has NEVER been greener on the other side.

There's always room for improvement, certainly - and Logic IS being worked on, full-time, I assure you. They DO listen to the end user - they just don't provide the kind of feedback we like ;-)
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #28
Deleted 86c3d96
Guest
Logic is truly a splendid product. Is there room for improvement? Yes.

I guess it depends on your needs.
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #29
Gear Maniac
 
AjanovicH's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Even if Logic had all the features from that "Wishlist" above, someone would still find that it's missing something.
Old 11th February 2009 | Show parent
  #30
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
from what i see to be fair... logic express is a pretty good deal.
theres a lot of freebies n instruments included etc.
and thats good.
i feel the next BIG PHASE of daw development will be daws includeing
oodles of instruments n composing features to help with song composition.
i suspect the logic team have recognised this.

i would be surprised if apple wasnt listening to the market.
they have to , to survive in a very competitive market.
its easy to look at any daw software and find the minuses.
but to be fair logic has always had a slew of midi features.
cos that was its roots if i'm not mistaken.
so its not surprising that the midi features alone have realised
a big base of fans. its tough for competitors to dislodge
a loyal fan base no matter how good the competing product.
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