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Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin
Old 29th June 2010 | Show parent
  #1201
Gear Guru
 
SWAN808's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
Hopefully it did more than just remind your of an analog SSL Buss Compressor, since it is a model of one and meant to sound almost identical. Here are some A/B examples against the analog compressor for you to listen to of a setting pushed nice and hard: http://cytomic.com/files/the-glue-drums-ab-wavs.zip

As a previous poster has pointed out the SSL sounds isn't for everyone. I would have been worried if you liked the sound of The Glue when you didn't like the sound of the original, because it would have meant I didn't do my job right :-)
Sounds really good. I need to do a proper ABX test with these audio files - but I cant escape the feeling that on the snare example the analogue hardware pops and punches the transients of the snare with slightly more definition...
Old 30th June 2010 | Show parent
  #1202
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DaVogi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
(hopefully) constructive critisism:

does the range knob works as on the mpressor? value = max gain reduction -> if so, wouldn't it be more usefull if it just goes up to max 20 GR instead of 40dB and more?

same with the make-up gain... anybody really needs more than 20dB of make-up gain?

that and that you brake your backward-compatibility in a minor release drops a unprofessional shadow on your plugin. and I think that's a pitty because the one time I tested your plugin at a friends place it really sounded great and so I think it deserves also a professional presentation!
Old 30th June 2010 | Show parent
  #1203
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVogi ➑️
(hopefully) constructive critisism:

does the range knob works as on the mpressor? value = max gain reduction -> if so, wouldn't it be more usefull if it just goes up to max 20 GR instead of 40dB and more?
The Glue is a completely different compressor to the mpressor, so I doubt very much the Range knob would work in a similar manner. If you care to provide me with some schematics for the mpressor I could let you know in more detail. What I can talk in detail about is the Range knob on The Glue: due to the nature of the feedback circuit in The Glue the Range knob has the appropriate scale, where at a setting of Full it matches the latest analog versions behaviour. Try the Range knob with the slowest attack and a low threshold, you will hear it making a difference to the sound even at -60 dB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVogi ➑️
same with the make-up gain... anybody really needs more than 20dB of make-up gain?
Perhaps 24 dB or 30 dB tops for a quiet track, but granted 40 is a bit much. I just did that for symmetry with the threshold knob. And didn't want to change it and break backwards compatibility :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVogi ➑️
that and that you brake your backward-compatibility in a minor release drops a unprofessional shadow on your plugin. and I think that's a pitty because the one time I tested your plugin at a friends place it really sounded great and so I think it deserves also a professional presentation!
An improved sound will necessarily sound different, and I am aware that this will impact peoples mixing of old projects but I view this as a good thing since their projects will sound better. I will always provide access to older builds for compatibility.

What is a mistake for me is that I forgot to automatically adjust the threshold when updating from v1.0.15 to v1.0.16, which is needed because of the improved diode model I'm using. I am currently working with a user to work out what the best automatic update to the threshold - it will only be a matter of a few dB, but this should help mixes with many instances of The Glue. I apologize for not including this already, my mistake - but it will be fixed soon, so please don't save over your projects that were saved with v1.0.15 as this will be fixed. I was reminded of this just after I took v1.0.16 out of beta which is unfortunate since this is exactly the reason I first release things as public betas with warnings about not using them in production yet.
Old 30th June 2010 | Show parent
  #1204
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dotl's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVogi ➑️


same with the make-up gain... anybody really needs more than 20dB of make-up gain?
Yes!
Old 30th June 2010 | Show parent
  #1205
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DaVogi's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
thanks andy for the superfast response - great!

@ range-knob: mhm, I'm not sure if I understand how this feature is exactly implemented in your plugin. also checked the guide on your page but it doesn't makes much sense to me how it is described - but could be of course my fault.

if the values are "maximum gain reduction in dB" as mentioned in the manual, I really don't know why I would want to limit GR in such wide dimensions... but maybe a usecase with mpressor is a better example:

bus compression... I want to compress about 2-3dB and make clear that the louder parts in the song don't get flatened, so I set a gr-limit to retain some dynamic. instead of 5dB of GR on louder parts it just does maximum e.g. -3.5dB... so the louder parts are still compressed but without sucking all dynamics out of the track.

even with percussive single tracks and extreme/creative compression about 20-40dB for the limit should be plenty...

but 90% of the time most of the people would surely use it as with the mpressor and therefore with gr-limits within -10dB.

@ make up gain: I rather like it to do that what it should do -> make up the gain reduction. for making something louder somebody invented faders... :D

and I rather have a more usable/meaningful range than a symmetrical but impractical one.
Old 30th June 2010 | Show parent
  #1206
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
I am currently working with a user to work out what the best automatic update to the threshold - it will only be a matter of a few dB, but this should help mixes with many instances of The Glue.

ermm...i hope it wont affect the sound of 1.0.16 and the way it works?'cause im in love with 1.0.16 and would prefer nothing to be changedheh
Old 1st July 2010 | Show parent
  #1207
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
What is a mistake for me is that I forgot to automatically adjust the threshold when updating from v1.0.15 to v1.0.16, which is needed because of the improved diode model I'm using. I am currently working with a user to work out what the best automatic update to the threshold - it will only be a matter of a few dB, but this should help mixes with many instances of The Glue. I apologize for not including this already, my mistake - but it will be fixed soon, so please don't save over your projects that were saved with v1.0.15 as this will be fixed. I was reminded of this just after I took v1.0.16 out of beta which is unfortunate since this is exactly the reason I first release things as public betas with warnings about not using them in production yet.
Not sure if I'm that "User". But if I'm the only one who has noticed this change from v1.0.15, then by all means Andy, I'll adjust v1.0.16 to taste!
Old 1st July 2010 | Show parent
  #1208
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by izzi ➑️
Not sure if I'm that "User". But if I'm the only one who has noticed this change from v1.0.15 then by all means Andy, I'll adjust v1.0.16 to taste!
Actually I've noticed it as well. I had to adjust the threshold up about 3 dB across a series of in-store retail videos I had to update from their previous mixes because they all sounded just a tad too compressed after the upgrade. I think an adjustment that brings the overall average compression more in line between the two versions is a great idea.
Old 1st July 2010 | Show parent
  #1209
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmccoy ➑️
Actually I've noticed it as well. I had to adjust the threshold up about 3 dB across a series of in-store retail videos I had to update from their previous mixes because they all sounded just a tad too compressed after the upgrade.
BINGO!

In the meantime, while this is being sorted out, what I'm doin' is using v1.0.15 on older projects and v1.0.16 on newer one's.

~Iz
Old 1st July 2010 | Show parent
  #1210
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pimento ➑️
ermm...i hope it wont affect the sound of 1.0.16 and the way it works?'cause im in love with 1.0.16 and would prefer nothing to be changedheh
v1.0.16 will sound exactly the same - I'm not going to update the algorithms in The Glue any more, I'm completely happy with the sound! I was referring to matching the threshold a little better when v1.0.16 loads a song saved with v1.0.15 - it is really just a time saver for people loading projects previously done with v1.0.15.
Old 1st July 2010 | Show parent
  #1211
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzi ➑️
Not sure if I'm that "User". But if I'm the only one who has noticed this change from v1.0.15, then by all means Andy, I'll adjust v1.0.16 to taste!
Hey Izzi - yep it is you indeed :-) Thanks for the great feedback on both the slight change in threshold and the rtas and bias peak gui drawing oddities. Updating the threshold from songs saves with older version of The Glue is easily done in code, it is just a matter of deciding what the best setting should be. I've had The Glue update small things like this before when I've made an adjustment internally, and every song file saves which version of The Glue was used - so everything is in place.
Old 1st July 2010 | Show parent
  #1212
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVogi ➑️
thanks andy for the superfast response - great!
You're welcome! Thanks for asking the very good questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVogi ➑️
@ range-knob: mhm, I'm not sure if I understand how this feature is exactly implemented in your plugin. also checked the guide on your page but it doesn't makes much sense to me how it is described - but could be of course my fault.

if the values are "maximum gain reduction in dB" as mentioned in the manual, I really don't know why I would want to limit GR in such wide dimensions... but maybe a usecase with mpressor is a better example:....
Although the Range knob it does limit total gain reduction to approximately the level shown, but it starts effecting transients way before that due to the structure of the circuit and how the Range knob works. To be able to match settings anywhere between what the analog hardware does, through to more subtle backing off for mastering the bounds need to be what they are now. There is no need to understand the in depth theory of it, just like there is no need to understand semi-conductor physics to use The Glue in the first place, just adjust it till you get something you like the sound of :-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVogi ➑️
bus compression... I want to compress about 2-3dB and make clear that the louder parts in the song don't get flatened, so I set a gr-limit to retain some dynamic. instead of 5dB of GR on louder parts it just does maximum e.g. -3.5dB... so the louder parts are still compressed but without sucking all dynamics out of the track.

even with percussive single tracks and extreme/creative compression about 20-40dB for the limit should be plenty...

but 90% of the time most of the people would surely use it as with the mpressor and therefore with gr-limits within -10dB.
For fast attack speeds I think the Range knob will be behaving more like you would expect. There are mastering presets with the Range set to -10 dB or so with a faster attack.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaVogi ➑️
@ make up gain: I rather like it to do that what it should do -> make up the gain reduction. for making something louder somebody invented faders... :D

and I rather have a more usable/meaningful range than a symmetrical but impractical one.
I agree that 30 dB to 40 dB makeup is not that useful for most people, but I preferred that to having weird knob markings. Easy enough not to use the top 10 dB if you don't want to.
Old 1st July 2010 | Show parent
  #1213
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everythinglouder's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hi Andy,

Is there a reason The Glue "captures" the 'esc' button in 1.0.16?

Usually in Logic, if I hover my mouse over a plug-in window and hit the escape button, the window disappears. This is convenient for quickly closing a bunch of plug-in windows in succession. But with The Glue this doesn't work. The Glue is the only plug-in I've ever encountered that doesn't react to the escape button, so I assume the plug-in is "capturing" that command and preventing it from being used for normal Logic commands. I can't determine why it's doing this, as I don't see anything change on the plug when I hit escape...

Could you clear this up, and if it's a bug could you fix it for the next build? Thanks.
Old 1st July 2010 | Show parent
  #1214
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I pass all keystrokes to the host. The only time I use the keyboard is when I pop up an edit window. I've just confirmed what you mean with Logic 9.1.1. I'm using the Juce framework for the gui and mouse stuff, so I'll post a bug report to the Juce forum and see if anyone knows what is going on.
Old 1st July 2010 | Show parent
  #1215
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
Hey Izzi - yep it is you indeed :-) Thanks for the great feedback on both the slight change in threshold and the rtas and bias peak gui drawing oddities. Updating the threshold from songs saves with older version of The Glue is easily done in code, it is just a matter of deciding what the best setting should be. I've had The Glue update small things like this before when I've made an adjustment internally, and every song file saves which version of The Glue was used - so everything is in place.

Glad I could help! You've outdone yourself with this version! Really close to the "G" on this one!

~Iz
Old 2nd July 2010 | Show parent
  #1216
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 ➑️
Sounds really good. I need to do a proper ABX test with these audio files - but I cant escape the feeling that on the snare example the analogue hardware pops and punches the transients of the snare with slightly more definition...
Yeah, I didn't find this to be a very flattering showcase of the Glue

I use The Glue, and like the current version of it, but the analogue file sounds more punchy, and more significantly: it's more open. Sounds like it has some kinda high end open quality to it, whereas the glue sounds closed off and plug-in-ish in comparison.

Also, if you just forget all the technical stuff and just listen to the two files and how it makes you feel, the analouge example just has a lot more "mojo" for lack of a better word. It makes you feel better. So I don't know, there's still a long way to go, but compared to other plugins the Glue is a great and convenient tool to have in a DAW at a great price.
Old 2nd July 2010 | Show parent
  #1217
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I always recommend people buy the analog hardware if they have the budget, as it does sound better. The question people have to ask though is if it's worth the extra $3500 usd when you only get to use one at a time? If your answer is yes then you may as well buy a copy of The Glue as well so you can use it as a stand-in on multiple tracks before bouncing through the analog version.

Shall I post some blind A/B examples as well to test everyone's ears in a more unbiased way?
Old 2nd July 2010
  #1218
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Ruud Unit's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Re: Cytomic Announces "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin

I'm always down for an ABX. Do it!
Old 2nd July 2010 | Show parent
  #1219
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everythinglouder's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️

Shall I post some blind A/B examples as well to test everyone's ears in a more unbiased way?
That should be fun; let's do it. thumbsup
Old 2nd July 2010 | Show parent
  #1220
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
why don't you let him to make other plugins?
Old 2nd July 2010 | Show parent
  #1221
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
I always recommend people buy the analog hardware if they have the budget, as it does sound better. The question people have to ask though is if it's worth the extra $3500 usd when you only get to use one at a time?
That's why I bought TG, there's not a $3500 difference in sound, TG comes as close as you can probably get in plugins, even though it sounds more plugin-ish of course, and in a mix where you just used the glue on certain elements it would probably be a lot less noticeable than on that stand alone drum mix that was posted. In other words, I don't think I would be able to hear the difference if the glue it was put on a drum buss only, in the context of a full song.

And yeah we should do a blindest! If you post the exact same files that have already been posted (I only listened to the drums kick slam ones) but this time just without the file names, I will single out the analogue one every time. I just (multiple times) shuffled them around and without looking at the screen, and it was easy to tell which was which. And that is on small Labtec speakers.
Old 2nd July 2010 | Show parent
  #1222
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I've got 3 other examples, a soulful vocal, a rock stem with just bass and drums, and a full pop mix. I'll post the .zip with 24 bit wavs and include the dry, and the 'a' and 'b' versions where I'll toss a coin to decide the names. I'll also include the preset files that I used for each. I've done my own blind listening tests and picked the analog around 60% of the time ie not very well.

I'm not doing these examples especially for the thread, I've already did them for reviewers and audio examples for the web page, so it hasn't taken time out of my planned work schedule.
Old 2nd July 2010 | Show parent
  #1223
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Here is the .zip file with the blind ab examples, included are the settings files which are human readable xml and you can load them into the glue. I've kept the settings about twice as much compression as you would apply in normal mixing to make any possible differences more obvious.

**Please note that these files are not in the public domain, you may not use them for any purposes other than these listening tests**

(edit: this file has been removed because the test was flawed)
www.cytomic.com/files/the-glue-blind-ab-wavs.zip

Please vote on them using the following template where you fill in "glue" or "analog" below based on your listening tests, and leave comments to either before or after this block so it is easier for people to see your votes:

pop-mix-a =
pop-mix-b =

rock-bass-drums-a =
rock-bass-drums-b =

vox-gita-a =
vox-gita-b =
Old 2nd July 2010 | Show parent
  #1224
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
My guess:

pop-mix-a = glue
pop-mix-b = analog

rock-bass-drums-a = analog
rock-bass-drums-b = glue

vox-gita-a = analog
vox-gita-b = glue

I don't know the real hardware, so I just assume it based on punchiness and clearness of the clips. The differences are actually quite small, so it might be just placebo. :P
Old 2nd July 2010 | Show parent
  #1225
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Ruud Unit's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
pop-mix-a = analog
pop-mix-b = glue

rock-bass-drums-a = glue
rock-bass-drums-b = analog

vox-gita-a = glue
vox-gita-b = analog

EDIT: Just noticed this is the exact opposite as poonna's guesses. haha!
Old 2nd July 2010 | Show parent
  #1226
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djanthonyw's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
pop-mix-a = glue
pop-mix-b = analog

rock-bass-drums-a = analog
rock-bass-drums-b = glue

vox-gita-a = analog
vox-gita-b = glue
Old 2nd July 2010 | Show parent
  #1227
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
pop-mix-a = glue
pop-mix-b = analog

rock-bass-drums-a = analog
rock-bass-drums-b = glue

vox-gita-a = analog
vox-gita-b = glue
Old 2nd July 2010 | Show parent
  #1228
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Ruud Unit's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Aw man, nobody agrees with me
Old 2nd July 2010 | Show parent
  #1229
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dotl's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Not easy to tell...thumbsup

pop-mix-a = glue
pop-mix-b = analog

rock-bass-drums-a = analog
rock-bass-drums-b = glue

vox-gita-a = analog
vox-gita-b = glue
Old 3rd July 2010 | Show parent
  #1230
Gear Addict
 
man in the house's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
just what i expected, no difference whatsoever for sane people....
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