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Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1021
Lives for gear
 
climber's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
is there any progress on resolving the GUI issue with Digital Performer 7.1 through 7.2 on OSX 4.11? I can't use Glue because I can't see the UI. pretty much of a drag when I've used it on so many tracks & projects.
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1022
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pacorro ➑️
I found The glue as a good plugin for this at a reasonable price, but STILL IMPROVABLE (remember the dirt at faster release times.
I agree that for faster times things can be improved for The Glue, but the only option left is to run things at a higher sample rate. This could be done by oversampling inside The Glue, which leads to latency, or by running the whole project at a faster sample rate. Both methods increase cpu usage. My next project requires oversampling, so once it's done I'll add it to The Glue as well as an option, and have also allow you to pick a higher oversampling amount again for offline render / freeze / track bounce.
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1023
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruud Unit ➑️
These charts are all really cool! And I think there is relevance to it. Thanks for taking the time to do this, Pacorro.

That being said, I have a hard time believing that this level of aliasing could simply slip past some of the highly talented DSP wizards working for Softube, Waves, Voxengo, et al.

What is the counter-argument here?

Is aliasing really the most crucial factor?

Are there other important things that we might be overlooking by simply reading a static analyzer snapshot?
Too much aliasing is a big problem, and will mean your audio suffers hugely - even though a listener might not be able to say "oh that's aliasing" if you do A/B tests with the aliased and non aliased version, they will prefer the non-aliased one.

As a prime example of this when I coded the oscillators for Cypher that change from tri to saw to pulse smoothly like a moog voyager, I did a quick and dirty aliasing version since I wanted to check it was the right direction before spending a lot more effect doing the anti-aliased version, so I played it to some critical test listeners at FXpansion - the verdict was they didn't like them, they sounded weak and thin. So, I ignored them, I didn't change a thing about the shape of the osc, and went on and developed the full version of the osc with high quality anti-aliasing and then played it again - the verdict was they sounded great. This is completely down to aliasing, nothing more.

But... if an effect or instrument doesn't sound good in the first place, will it matter if it has no aliasing? No. Perhaps a better way to put this that analog hardware doesn't alias, but there are plenty of bad sounding bits of analog kit!
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1024
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by climber ➑️
is there any progress on resolving the GUI issue with Digital Performer 7.1 through 7.2 on OSX 4.11? I can't use Glue because I can't see the UI. pretty much of a drag when I've used it on so many tracks & projects.
Al, I'm really sorry about this, I have not been able to reproduce it my end, so it's difficult to track down and fix. It's frustrating for me because I've not changed anything in my code that would cause this, it's something to do with the update in the framework I'm using for graphics stuff. I am still trying to find and fix this issue - which has delayed the v1.0.16 release. I know you would rather it just fixed, but I am happy to offer you a refund for The Glue since it is unusable for you.
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1025
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climber's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Andy,

I hear you & understand the problems. thanks for the refund offer. I'll wait a little more because I love the way it sounds and I hate to give it up. thumbsup Hey, I just want Glue to work but I may take you up on it if you can't resolve the issue. hard for me to believe that I'm the only person out there running it in DP7 with OSX 4.11 tho!
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1026
Gear Addict
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Hi again, Andy.
I generated a 902 hz sine in Wavelab 6.

I tested the harmonic distortion again in The Glue and psp oltimer.

-6db of GR
- Ratio 2
- attack 0'1 ms, release fastest position (in Oldtimer is 0'5ms)
- attack 10 ms (La2a style), release auto

Psp Oltimer in valve and clean mode


Do you want me to check a few more comps?
Attached Thumbnails
Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-glue-902hz-fast.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-glue-902hz-slow.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-oldtimer-902hz-fast-clean.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-oldtimer-902hz-fast-valve.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-oldtimer-902hz-slow-10ms-clean.jpg  

Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1027
Gear Addict
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
sorry, can't resist
Attached Thumbnails
Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-fet-902-fast.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-urs-902-fast.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-urs-strip-pro-902-fast.jpg  
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1028
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by climber ➑️
Andy,

I hear you & understand the problems. thanks for the refund offer. I'll wait a little more because I love the way it sounds and I hate to give it up. thumbsup Hey, I just want Glue to work but I may take you up on it if you can't resolve the issue. hard for me to believe that I'm the only person out there running it in DP7 with OSX 4.11 tho!
Good news Al! I just received an email from Salvator of TriTone Digital, and he says that this Tiger graphics issue has been fixed in the latest version of the framework we're using. I'll email you a test build early next week
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1029
Gear Addict
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Andy...
how accurate is the GR meter?
When ratio is 2 ever shows more GR than when it's 4 or 10. See the attached. Same settings and changing only the ratio.
Attached Thumbnails
Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-glueratio.jpg  
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1030
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pacorro ➑️
Andy...
how accurate is the GR meter?
When ratio is 2 ever shows more GR than when it's 4 or 10. See the attached. Same settings and changing only the ratio.
Hi Pacorro, the meter is an accurate version of the actual dB gain reduction amount, but smoothed to match the needle on the original hardware - so it's more of an rms type needle, not a peak one.

The reason that the ratio of 2 shows more compression at very low compression amounts is that the threshold changes slightly for each ratio, which is part of the design of the analog compressor. This allows you to switch between different ratio settings at usual compression amounts (ie 4-12 dB) and more easily compare the sound.
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1031
Gear Addict
 
frankymax's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by climber ➑️
Andy,

I hear you & understand the problems. thanks for the refund offer. I'll wait a little more because I love the way it sounds and I hate to give it up. thumbsup Hey, I just want Glue to work but I may take you up on it if you can't resolve the issue. hard for me to believe that I'm the only person out there running it in DP7 with OSX 4.11 tho!
Hi Al- I don't mean to be annoying but you may consider moving up to Snow Leopard as I'm running DP 7.1.2 on 10.6.3 and it's running like a dream! I guess you may have issues with UAD cards or other software that doesn't allow you to upgrade from 10.4.11 but I went kicking and screaming from 10.4.11 to 10.6 and it's been just great.
Just my 2 cents!
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1032
Lives for gear
 
Ruud Unit's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Right on! I guess my question is more like:

Even though we know aliasing is bad, is there some reason why a DSP designer would allow it in favor of gaining some other advantage?

Or are you just better than the others?

For the record, while I'm playing Devil's advocate here, I am a very satisfied owner of both The Glue and Synth Squad!

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
Too much aliasing is a big problem, and will mean your audio suffers hugely - even though a listener might not be able to say "oh that's aliasing" if you do A/B tests with the aliased and non aliased version, they will prefer the non-aliased one.

As a prime example of this when I coded the oscillators for Cypher that change from tri to saw to pulse smoothly like a moog voyager, I did a quick and dirty aliasing version since I wanted to check it was the right direction before spending a lot more effect doing the anti-aliased version, so I played it to some critical test listeners at FXpansion - the verdict was they didn't like them, they sounded weak and thin. So, I ignored them, I didn't change a thing about the shape of the osc, and went on and developed the full version of the osc with high quality anti-aliasing and then played it again - the verdict was they sounded great. This is completely down to aliasing, nothing more.

But... if an effect or instrument doesn't sound good in the first place, will it matter if it has no aliasing? No. Perhaps a better way to put this that analog hardware doesn't alias, but there are plenty of bad sounding bits of analog kit!
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1033
Lives for gear
 
dotl's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pacorro ➑️


Do you want me to check a few more comps?
Yes pliiz!

1.) Elysia mpressor 1.0.3 without noise

2.) Waves 2500

3.) Abbey Road RS124

BTW...is that 24 bit sine wave?

THX!
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1034
Lives for gear
 
climber's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankymax ➑️
Hi Al- I don't mean to be annoying but you may consider moving up to Snow Leopard as I'm running DP 7.1.2 on 10.6.3 and it's running like a dream...
not a problem with software really, it's hardware. I have a G5 & just can't afford to buy a new machine right now. I would if I could, believe me.
Old 15th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1035
Lives for gear
 
darkwater's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I saw this thread and thought, "well, it's cheap enough, I'll just buy it and check it out. Might be good for something, somewhere..."

But, WHOA! Thanks! me likee... a LOT.

heh
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1036
Lives for gear
 
johnnynash's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Causes wavelab 6 to freeze

Downloaded the trial, works great in cubase but unfortunately causes wavelab to freeze. Any chance you might have a solution?
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1037
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnynash ➑️
Downloaded the trial, works great in cubase but unfortunately causes wavelab to freeze. Any chance you might have a solution?
Yes, this is fixed in v1.0.16 which will be coming out soon, most likely before or on the end of this week (Fri 21st May).
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1038
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruud Unit ➑️
Right on! I guess my question is more like:

Even though we know aliasing is bad, is there some reason why a DSP designer would allow it in favor of gaining some other advantage?

Or are you just better than the others?

For the record, while I'm playing Devil's advocate here, I am a very satisfied owner of both The Glue and Synth Squad!
The only reasons I know of to allow aliasing is either the developer lacks the knowledge of how to lower it, or a choice has been made to compromise audio quality to lower cpu usage.

I don't know about the cpu usage of other compressors, but the plots pacorro has posted show the aliasing in most of them. For the record The Glue v1.0.16, which is just about to be released, uses an modified trapazoidal implicit circuit solver (the same type of thing that scientific circuit simulation packages use), has low aliasing, and still only takes on average 1.15% cpu per instance on a single core of a 2.8 GHz Core 2 Duo.

For those that don't have a copy of The Glue, if your existing favourite compressor don't sound as good as The Glue, takes more cpu than The Glue, and aliases as well - then perhaps it's time to switch to The Glue!

Last edited by andy-cytomic; 17th May 2010 at 07:41 PM.. Reason: small typo and added credit to pacorro for the plots
Old 17th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1039
Lives for gear
 
johnnynash's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
Yes, this is fixed in v1.0.16 which will be coming out soon, most likely before or on the end of this week (Fri 21st May).
Good news, looking forward trying it out in Wavelab in a mastering situation as well :-) Gotta tell you, man, I really like the way The Glue sounds on the 2buss in Cubase and also on individual tracks. You definitely got something good brewing with this one!

Cheers
Old 18th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1040
Lives for gear
 
Steab's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Great tests and work parroco, we could continue the plugin analyzing in a more proper thread: https://gearspace.com/board/so-much-...is-thread.html
Old 18th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1041
Lives for gear
 
Pale Pyramid's Avatar
 
31 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Hey Andy ,

You did such a bang up job with this plug in , have you considered making a SSL style channel strip with your own personal tweeks just like 'The Glue' has ? Like a Glue companion plug ?
Old 18th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1042
Lives for gear
 
Mercado_Negro's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
For the record The Glue v1.0.16, which is just about to be released, uses an modified trapazoidal implicit circuit solver (the same type of thing that scientific circuit simulation packages use), has low aliasing, and still only takes on average 1.15% cpu per instance on a single core of a 2.8 GHz Core 2 Duo.
Hi Andy,

Great news about this update (1.0.16). I just read what you wrote above and I'm worried about something, will this change the sound of The Glue?
Old 18th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1043
Gear Addict
 
pylorca's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
pacorro the resolution is low, to do this tests you must use more resolution like 32k

1khz sine, host 44.1khz
Extreme settings with ratios: 10:1, 4:1, 2:1 (gr 6dbs)

So, the glue is cleaner than many famous plugins, but in high ratios the aliasing is present.

the most of software compressors (in fast att/rel) are not free of aliasing.

The Glue is cleaner than W SSL 4000
Attached Thumbnails
Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-glue10.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-glue4.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-glue2.jpg  
Old 18th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1044
Gear Addict
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steab ➑️
Great tests and work parroco, we could continue the plugin analyzing in a more proper thread: https://gearspace.com/board/so-much-...is-thread.html
Ok, I'm coming


Pylorca, come to play there with me.
Old 18th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1045
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro ➑️
Hi Andy,

Great news about this update (1.0.16). I just read what you wrote above and I'm worried about something, will this change the sound of The Glue?
The settings and sound will remain the same, but with the trapazoidal solver has slightly lower aliasing than the solver in v1.0.15 which is called backwards euler (and is also used in circuit simulation packages)

Last edited by andy-cytomic; 18th May 2010 at 01:21 PM.. Reason: added note about backwards euler
Old 18th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1046
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pylorca ➑️
pacorro the resolution is low, to do this tests you must use more resolution like 32k

1khz sine, host 44.1khz
Extreme settings with ratios: 10:1, 4:1, 2:1 (gr 6dbs)

So, the glue is cleaner than many famous plugins, but in high ratios the aliasing is present.

the most of software compressors (in fast att/rel) are not free of aliasing.

The Glue is cleaner than W SSL 4000
I did some plots last night, and realised that an even better test frequency is 910Hz. Here is a plot with The Glue v1.0.16 and the Waves V7.1 SSL buss comp attached attack 0.1mS, release 0.1S, ratio 10, gr -6dB no makeup. Having no makeup means that you can verify the peak gain reduction via the scope display and meters. The Waves plugin also has a dc offset which you will need to remove post their plugin with a high pass filter.
Attached Thumbnails
Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-cytomicglue1.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-wavessslbuss1.jpg  
Old 18th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1047
Lives for gear
 
G. E.'s Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Lightbulb DC/subsonic frequencies with plugins

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
... plugin also has a dc offset which you will need to remove post their plugin with a high pass filter.
Better expect all kind of plugins to show this behaviour even on signals where you wouldn't expect DC or subsonic frequencies... compressors are especially prone to this in my experience. Anyway, this can really ruin your mix because it sucks so much life out of a track... sometimes the then necessary low cut at the mastering stage will do some harm as well. IMO this behaviour is one important reason why digital mixes fail if left untreated. BTW its not only a problem of digital but analog has so much stages (transformers, tape, etc.) where these frequencies get lost anyway.
Old 18th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1048
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by G. E. ➑️
Better expect all kind of plugins to show this behaviour even on signals where you wouldn't expect DC or subsonic frequencies... compressors are especially prone to this in my experience. Anyway, this can really ruin your mix because it sucks so much life out of a track... sometimes the then necessary low cut at the mastering stage will do some harm as well. IMO this behaviour is one important reason why digital mixes fail if left untreated. BTW its not only a problem of digital but analog has so much stages (transformers, tape, etc.) where these frequencies get lost anyway.
The dc blocking aspect of analog circuits is one of the easiest things to model in digital since it's at such low frequencies. Digital is great at low frequences, but much more difficult to get right at high frequencies. The Glue models the dc blocking filters in the signal chain of the original wherever they are, preserving the structure of the analog circuit. Analog circuits internally add dc offset all the time since components are never perfectly matched and everything is so approximate. This is why circuit designers have to filter it out all the time with dc blocking filters.
Old 20th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1049
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I've just finished some A/B examples between The Glue and the XLogic SSL G-Series comp. Here is the first one to check out with the fastest attack 0.1 mS, the fastest release 0.1 S, ratio 10, and the most compression possible on the hardware, the rms needle peaking at around -18 dB:

The Wavs are 110bpm 16 bit that I aligned in time as best as possible so you can switch between the two in your daw to compare them, and the the 24 bit dry one too if you want to try and match it with another compressor.

Wavs:
http://www.cytomic.com/files/AB_AccDrmExtreme_Dry.wav
http://www.cytomic.com/files/AB_AccD...SSLGSeries.wav
http://www.cytomic.com/files/AB_AccD...ytomicGlue.wav

Images:
http://www.cytomic.com/files/AB_AccD...SSLGSeries.jpg
http://www.cytomic.com/files/AB_AccD...ytomicGlue.jpg

Old 20th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1050
Lives for gear
 
dotl's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Andy, i don't know what to say...

That Range knob is just fabulous. I managed to achieve even better result than you with it.

I don't understand how The Glue can be THAT close to the hardware.
πŸ“ Reply

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