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Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin
Old 11th May 2010 | Show parent
  #991
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years

As an added incentive for each demo I use I'll give the submitter a free copy of The Glue, or if you already have it, then my next plugin instead!
[/QUOTE]

And what type of plug will that be? Very interested!
Old 12th May 2010 | Show parent
  #992
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norbury brook's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pacorro ➑️
hi from Spain
I'm a happy owner of the glue. this is one of the best vst comps in the market.
Is clean, even at the fastest attack. The most of the comp/lim plugins are very dirty, specially at faster settings.
The Glue have very low harmonic distortion, as you can see in the graphics
Just a little dirt when ratio is on 10 and when release is in the fastest position.
Look what the SSL do to the same 1khz sinewave.
The only vst comp that is cleaner than the glue is the Psp Oltimer, but the glue is more versatile.

P.s: gain reduction is always 6db. The sine wave was generated with Wavelab.

Best regards, and sorry for my english

But aren't those harmonics 'correct' modelling through the analogue chain?

If you put a sine wave through the hardware wouldn't you see that typr of response?

Could you compare stillwells rocket too? that's a fast compresor.

thanks for the testing :D


MC
Old 12th May 2010 | Show parent
  #993
Gear Maniac
 
Stixxs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Looks good Andy,

Anyone got a sample on acoustic guitar...or on a acoustic rock stereo bus?
Old 12th May 2010 | Show parent
  #994
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Kenton's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pacorro ➑️
The glue vs Waves SSL, same settings. 6db of GR

look at the inharmonic content.
Too right.
Something not right about that Waves comp.

Old 12th May 2010 | Show parent
  #995
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenton ➑️
Too right.
Something not right about that Waves comp.

Or maybe right compared to the hardware.
Old 12th May 2010 | Show parent
  #996
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook ➑️
But aren't those harmonics 'correct' modelling through the analogue chain?

If you put a sine wave through the hardware wouldn't you see that typr of response?

MC
I think what he meant was not "harmonics" but "sidebands". The main harmonics, multiples of the 1Khz sin, will be present in the analog version as well, but I'm not sure as to their shape. I'll do the same test with the analog hardware soon and post the results.

In the Waves example their are 100Hz sidebands around the 1kHz peak, which are very odd indeed. I'll reserve further comment till I've got the plots from analog.
Old 12th May 2010 | Show parent
  #997
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stixxs ➑️
Looks good Andy,

Anyone got a sample on acoustic guitar...or on a acoustic rock stereo bus?
I've just done an example with acoustic guitar and an A/B with the original analog hardware, I'll post some links once I've edited it down. For the A/B I pushed things a little harder than tasteful to highlight any possible differences between the two, but hopefully you will get the idea.
Old 12th May 2010 | Show parent
  #998
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tele27 ➑️

As an added incentive for each demo I use I'll give the submitter a free copy of The Glue, or if you already have it, then my next plugin instead!
And what type of plug will that be? Very interested![/QUOTE]
I'm going to do a creative modulation type effect this time, but I won't say more till an official announcement is made. I'll return to doing an eq or comp after that.
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #999
Gear Addict
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
I think what he meant was not "harmonics" but "sidebands". The main harmonics, multiples of the 1Khz sin, will be present in the analog version as well, but I'm not sure as to their shape. I'll do the same test with the analog hardware soon and post the results.

In the Waves example their are 100Hz sidebands around the 1kHz peak, which are very odd indeed. I'll reserve further comment till I've got the plots from analog.
The big peaks are harmonics, the small ones are not harmonics. These small peaks means the plugin is not being accurate with the original file.

From the wiki...

A harmonic of a wave is a component frequency of the signal that is an integer multiple of the fundamental frequency

inharmonicity is the degree to which the frequencies of overtones (known as partials, partial tones, or harmonics) depart from whole multiples of the fundamental frequency. Acoustically, a note perceived to have a single distinct pitch in fact contains a variety of additional overtones.

So when a plugin has harmonic content, the sound is probably richer and can be pleasant to your ears. Most of the hardware adds this kind of harmonics and we love that sound.
In my test you can watch that the harmonics (big peaks) are 3k, 5k, 7k...being all of them multiples of 1khz (the original sinewave)

But when you see small peaks at 900, 800, 1100, 1200, etc, this is inharmonic content that doesn't sounds good. The sound becames less defined, more blurred, foggy...

Imagine you play the A key on a piano, but unfortunately you push at the same time a few keys next to the A that sounds at a lower volume than the A note. This A note will be the louder, but less defined, and less pure than if you just pushed the A key and nothing more.
So, when you add inharmonic content to the signal, you are adding a lot of notes that don't sound good in this context, but at a lower volume. You probably not hear them, but the sound looses definition, although you don't know the reason.
You and me probably can't hear nothing of it when this content is below -80db (as you can see in the graphics), but when the inharmonic content is above -60 and you stack a lot of tracks, the sound becomes less defined and dirtier to our ears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook ➑️
But aren't those harmonics 'correct' modelling through the analogue chain?

If you put a sine wave through the hardware wouldn't you see that typr of response?
This inharmonic content doesn't exist in the analog world, you'll never find it in the hardware, just the harmonic content.

Adding inharmonic content to the original signal means a reduction of quality. In a entire mix whith lot of tracks, this means less definition in the final sound, because you are adding a lot of notes that are not harmonics with the real ones in the music.

I'm not saying that these plugins are good or bad, or if it sounds good or not. Some of them probably would be better if they improve the processing.

The most of the plugins in the market have better interface than sound. A lot of them are processing bad, adding unnecesay distortion. But, hey, we call this distortion "warm", "color" "analogue sound", etc.
A plugin works with numbers, the hardware works with electricity. Two different worlds.
What a plugin must do is processing the track as accurately and trasparently as possible. This is my personal point of view.

Another question is the byte depth of processing. The Powercore, for example, process at 48 bit, while the native plugins process at 24 or 32 floating.
There are some native plugins with oversampling very very clean and accurate, like some of the Psp stuff (masterQ, Neon HR in phat position) or Kjaerhus Mpl1 (the best native limiter in the market in oversampling mode).


Sorry again for my english. I'd like to explain this in spanish, hahaha.

If you understand spanish, there is a lot of info and graphics
comparativa limitadores : MasterizaciΓ³n
euridia
Sonimus.com - Portada

Some examples of plugins adding inharmonic content to the signal:
Attached Thumbnails
Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-blockfish.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-chandler-3.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-crunchesor-modo-valve-3-db.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-mpressor-2.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-nebula-3-g.jpg  

Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-nomadbluetubesfairchild.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-redline-preamp.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-rocket.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-sonnox-2.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-tracks-1.jpg  

Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-tracks-2.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-tracks-3.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-antressmodernlim-range-al-3.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-pocket-limiter.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-psp-mix-pressor2.jpg  

Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-mpl1-b.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-softube-tubetech.jpg   Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-sonalksis-sv315.jpg  
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1000
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Kenton's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
What happens if you apply a different driving frequency - do the sidebands take on a different spacing?
Could this be an artifact of the testing process? It looks like some kind of intermodulation distortion like a form of aliasing...
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1001
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dickiefunk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hi Pacorro. Thanks for all this interesting information. Would it also be possible to add Variety Of Sounds Density mkII to your tests?

I'm looking to buy a Buss comp at the moment and am wondering what is the cleanest most transparent VST Bus Comp out there?

I have tried Density mkII, Stillwell Bombardier and PSP Old Timer. I prefer the sound of Bombardier so far. I'll be looking to try out lots of other demos soon!
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1002
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jitterybit's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
should this be a new thread...?
Very cool stuff, but getting off course
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1003
Gear Head
 
🎧 10 years
Excellent!!! This and the other post about nulling every EQ curve with a stock EQ (demystifing digital EQ) are very "dissapointing" for us who work ITB.
Now, can we have replies form developers? Just to clarify...
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1004
Gear Addict
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by jitterybit ➑️
should this be a new thread...?
Very cool stuff, but getting off course
yes, you are right. I'm sorry. I erased some images and explanations
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1005
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenton ➑️
What happens if you apply a different driving frequency - do the sidebands take on a different spacing?
Could this be an artifact of the testing process? It looks like some kind of intermodulation distortion like a form of aliasing...
Yes, a different test frequency leads to a greatly different aliased spectrum. The aliasing frequencies are caused by folding back of multiples of the 1kHz harmonics. If you do the math the function is a "mirror" type one where:

if (freq < 0) freq = -freq
if (freq > nyquist) freq = 2*nyquist - freq

With a 1000 Hz signal the 23rd harmonic is 23000 hz, and nyquist is 22050, you will bounce back to 21100 hz, which is 100 hz from the 21st harmonic. This bouncing continues like a hall of mirrors, which is why you see all the 100 hz sidebands - they are aliasing of the harmonics. See attached.

A slightly better test frequency is something like 902 Hz, which is more obvious as the aliasing is spaced apart more. See attached.

A new thread for this stuff is a good idea. Should we also set some standards for the plots should be used to make it easier to compare them? I suggest a standard of 902 hz for the test signal, 44.1kHz sample rate, and a window size of at least 0.5 sec (22050 samples, in a power of 2 that's either 16384 or even better at 32768) and then match the compression / drive settings as best as possible ie same attack, release, ratio, and gain reduction and all the plots should also have the same range.
Attached Thumbnails
Cytomic &quot;The Glue&quot; Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-rectifiedsin1000hz.png   Cytomic &quot;The Glue&quot; Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-rectifiedsin902hz.png   Cytomic &quot;The Glue&quot; Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-sin902hz.png  
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1006
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Trying out jpg instead of png for attachments
Attached Thumbnails
Cytomic &quot;The Glue&quot; Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-rectifiedsin1000hz.jpg   Cytomic &quot;The Glue&quot; Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-rectifiedsin902hz.jpg   Cytomic &quot;The Glue&quot; Bus Compressor Effect Plugin-sin902hz.jpg  
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1007
Gear Addict
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
Should we also set some standards for the plots should be used to make it easier to compare them? I suggest a standard of 902 hz for the test signal, 44.1kHz sample rate, and a window size of at least 0.5 sec (22050 samples, in a power of 2 that's either 16384 or even better at 32768) and then match the compression / drive settings as best as possible ie same attack, release, ratio, and gain reduction and all the plots should also have the same range.
Andy, the sinewave must be EVER the same, because if you generate the same sine in 2 different programs will be different.

And, about matching the settings in the plugins...
well, The glue don't lie and the real times are the expected ones, but I promised this is unusual. First is important to watch the real times of every plugin, to match them as best as possible.

Sorry for the offtopic. It was not my intention.
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1008
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by pacorro ➑️
Andy, the sinewave must be EVER the same, because if you generate the same sine in 2 different programs will be different.

And, about matching the settings in the plugins...
well, The glue don't lie and the real times are the expected ones, but I promised this is unusual. First is important to watch the real times of every plugin, to match them as best as possible.

Sorry for the offtopic. It was not my intention.
Yes, matching settings is difficult, but just the best that can be done. You're right also that the sin wave needs to be the same file, and generated as pure as possible - a 24 bit or 24 bit float is needed, and it should look as good the plot I did. Please, no need to apologize for the off topic! This is good stuff!
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1009
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DSpec1's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
this thread feels like a game changer.
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1010
Gear Addict
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dickiefunk ➑️
Hi Pacorro. Thanks for all this interesting information. Would it also be possible to add Variety Of Sounds Density mkII to your tests?

I'm looking to buy a Buss comp at the moment and am wondering what is the cleanest most transparent VST Bus Comp out there?

I have tried Density mkII, Stillwell Bombardier and PSP Old Timer. I prefer the sound of Bombardier so far. I'll be looking to try out lots of other demos soon!
Density:
http://www.hispasonic.com/comunidad/...2581&mode=view

the bombardier is some like the free cockos Reacomp. When act in Rms mode (not peak mode) they are really clean, but the times are veeeeerrrryyyyy ssssllllllooooooowwwwwwwwww.

The best ones (for the tests I've done)
- Psp Oltimer for clean, transparent compression but doesn't sound good for squashing the tracks
- the glue for clean compression and for character / balls, but still clean, fast and versatile (and cheap)
- Psp Mastercomp, for clean and little GR
- Best limiters: Kjaerhus Mpl1 (native), Tc Brickwall limiter (powercore), Voxengo Elephant (the most adaptive)

If you want a lot of balls...some of the Uad stuff is good (not all of the plugins, of course).
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...bens/LA-2a.jpg
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...bens/la-3a.jpg
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q...posicion14.jpg
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1011
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dickiefunk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Thanks for the reply pacorro.

I'm currently using Stillwells The Rocket, Stillwells Bombardier and Density mkII as my go to compressors. I've also just picked up the Nomad factory MCL-2269 compressor that was part of the British Bundle no-brainer offer but haven't installed this yet.

I'm aiming to have a small number of complimentary compressors for :-

Bass
Guitar
Piano / keys
Percussion
Master Buss

I'm trying out quite a few demos at the moment and I did like the PSP Old Timer but am unsure if it offers anything majorly different to what I already have!?
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1012
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dickiefunk ➑️
Thanks for the reply pacorro.

I'm currently using Stillwells The Rocket, Stillwells Bombardier and Density mkII as my go to compressors. I've also just picked up the Nomad factory MCL-2269 compressor that was part of the British Bundle no-brainer offer but haven't installed this yet.

I'm aiming to have a small number of complimentary compressors for :-

Bass
Guitar
Piano / keys
Percussion
Master Buss

I'm trying out quite a few demos at the moment and I did like the PSP Old Timer but am unsure if it offers anything majorly different to what I already have!?
Have you got a copy of The Glue? With it's great sound and gentle sidechain hp and the Range knob you are pretty much covered for your source list above, and it's a different flavour to compressor to those you have.
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1013
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dickiefunk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
Have you got a copy of The Glue? With it's great sound and gentle sidechain hp and the Range knob you are pretty much covered for your source list above, and it's a different flavour to compressor to those you have.
Hi Andy,

Thanks for the post. I am downloading the demo now to see how I get on with it!
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1014
Gear Addict
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
if I can only have one I'd take The glue for versatily, sound and price
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1015
Gear Addict
 
6 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Andy, is possible to improve the little distortion at the two first positions of the release?
Then would be the perfect vst comp.
Thanks
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1016
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Kenton's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
OK, here's a thought.

Is there a compressor plug which has a means of changing between Feedforward and Feedback type processing? (i.e. control signal derived from input side vs. control signal derived from output side.)

It would be interesting to see how and if they differed...



(Basically, I'm just wondering if all the comps producing inharmonic signals are using a Feedback design whereas all the clean comps are using a Feedforward design.)

K.
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1017
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dickiefunk's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenton ➑️
OK, here's a thought.

Is there a compressor plug which has a means of changing between Feedforward and Feedback type processing? (i.e. control signal derived from input side vs. control signal derived from output side.)
Yes Stillwells Bombardier can do this :-

Bombardier | Stillwell Audio - It's About The Sound
Old 13th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1018
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theothermarkwilliams's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Waves API 2500 also can be set as either feedback or feed-forward.
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1019
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Kenton's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Sorry, I had a play with the Bombardier and I don't think Feedback/Feedforward has any relevance here.

Red Herring.

Apologies.




Still trying to rationalize this though...
Old 14th May 2010 | Show parent
  #1020
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Ruud Unit's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
These charts are all really cool! And I think there is relevance to it. Thanks for taking the time to do this, Pacorro.

That being said, I have a hard time believing that this level of aliasing could simply slip past some of the highly talented DSP wizards working for Softube, Waves, Voxengo, et al.

What is the counter-argument here?

Is aliasing really the most crucial factor?

Are there other important things that we might be overlooking by simply reading a static analyzer snapshot?
πŸ“ Reply

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