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Cytomic "The Glue" Bus Compressor Effect Plugin
Old 22nd May 2009 | Show parent
  #601
Gear Maniac
 
obliterations's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️

I'm pretty sure the distressor schematic is confidential, and with Universal Audio doing a model I sure they will not take kindly to someone else doing one with regards giving me access to their schematics.

Andrew Simper
Andy, I to would like to see a distressor plug-in! Maybe you could save yourself some problems by calling it a "Repressor" Haha ha urr...
Old 22nd May 2009 | Show parent
  #602
Gear Addict
 
mplancke's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
Just so you know different ssl's have different voltages so there isn't "the ssl setting" since they all sound different. Also different ssl's use different op amps with different slew rates and there are loads of other factors that will make each run of each model even be slightly different.
Hi Andrew

A stock GSSL uses +/- 15 volt rails on the main VCA's (dbx202's or equivalent emulation) through 5534's and 5532's. Sidechain is +/- 12 volt rails, the sidechain is summed mono and utilizes a THAT2181 VCA and TLO72 opamps.

There are some variations on this circuit out there, but that's the original design.

Mark
Old 22nd May 2009 | Show parent
  #603
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hi Mark. Thanks for your post. I have a copy of the Gyraf schematic already. I am interested in full schematics of the SSL 4000 bus compressor and the rack equivalent. The ones I have seen so far only have one of the main and sidechain amps shown, and no markings to show part numbers of the other one and how it connects.

Andrew Simper
Old 23rd May 2009 | Show parent
  #604
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gyraf's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
...the relevant parts of the SSL 4000E schematics (82E26 and 82E27) can be found on our diy-page already, for reference...

Jakob E.
Old 23rd May 2009 | Show parent
  #605
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gyraf ➑️
...the relevant parts of the SSL 4000E schematics (82E26 and 82E27) can be found on our diy-page already, for reference...

Jakob E.
Hi Jakob. These are the incomplete schematic I was referring to. Perhaps it's just because I do not understand the notation used because all I see is one amp, and one sidechain amp and no indication of how this transmogrifies into a circuit that can process stereo signals. Can you please lend a hand?

82E26: http://www.ka-electronics.com/images/SSL/ssl_82E26.pdf
There are is DBX 202C A1, and DBX 202C A2, one is for the sidechain, and the other for the main amp, so that means only a mono signal can be processed. Unless you can please point out where I am missing the special notation that indicates which bits of the circuit are duplicated, and how they are hooked up to the other section. I can clearly see how it should probably be connect, which is how I have done The Glue, that the same circuit is repeated, and points 42 D and 16 B are where the two stereo circuits join. This is the same structure I use in The Glue, where post sidechain envelope follower diodes the signal is summed. I prefer not to make assumptions though so I will wait till is see full schematics to say what is going on.

I also note that in http://www.ka-electronics.com/images/SSL/ssl_82E27.pdf in the auto release the 750 K resistor is next to ground but in the gssl version the resistors are flipped and the 91 K is next to ground http://www.gyraf.dk/gy_pd/ssl/ssl_sch.gif . Is there any particular change the auto release on the gssl like this?

Andrew Simper
Old 24th May 2009 | Show parent
  #606
Lives for gear
 
AshleySmith06's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Could any info be sourced from here...

Analog Console Forum • Index page

???

Old 24th May 2009 | Show parent
  #607
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleySmith06 ➑️
Could any info be sourced from here...

Analog Console Forum • Index page

???

I did a search for ssl 4000 and it came up blank. I think the easiest solution is to just order the full schematics from somewhere, but it would be easier to just look at an original desk with a voltmeter.

Andrew Simper
Old 24th May 2009 | Show parent
  #608
Lives for gear
 
AshleySmith06's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
I did a search for ssl 4000 and it came up blank. I think the easiest solution is to just order the full schematics from somewhere, but it would be easier to just look at an original desk with a voltmeter.

Andrew Simper
I'll keep my eyes open

I have a plugin request... Perhaps you could model a summing unit? I think that'd be cool, and don't think anyone has done this yet. It'd be nice to bounce stems through a modeled summing plugin such as the d2bus or something like that everyone raves about.

Thoughts?

Old 24th May 2009 | Show parent
  #609
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleySmith06 ➑️
I'll keep my eyes open

I have a plugin request... Perhaps you could model a summing unit? I think that'd be cool, and don't think anyone has done this yet. It'd be nice to bounce stems through a modeled summing plugin such as the d2bus or something like that everyone raves about.

Thoughts?

I think this would be a really useful effect, but it would have to operate at the host level otherwise it will be a nightmare to configure. I'll probably do a few more regular effect plugins before tackling something like this, but it's definitely of interest.

Andrew Simper
Old 24th May 2009 | Show parent
  #610
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AshleySmith06's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
I think this would be a really useful effect, but it would have to operate at the host level otherwise it will be a nightmare to configure. I'll probably do a few more regular effect plugins before tackling something like this, but it's definitely of interest.

Andrew Simper
Cool
Old 24th May 2009 | Show parent
  #611
Lives for gear
 
BLueROom's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Andy, just wanted to say...again... that this is without a doubt one of the best software comps on the market. I use it all the time on drum buss and even 2buss. It actually "feels" like an analog comp with how it reacts. You really have a winner here and $99 bucks was a steal!
Old 24th May 2009 | Show parent
  #612
Gear Addict
 
frankymax's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleySmith06 ➑️
I have a plugin request... Perhaps you could model a summing unit? I think that'd be cool, and don't think anyone has done this yet. It'd be nice to bounce stems through a modeled summing plugin such as the d2bus or something like that everyone raves about.

Thoughts?

+ 1 on a modeled summing plug- even if you have to make a host program for it I think it could be a big seller as long as you could run it alongside your DAW. PS- I'm lovin' The Glue!
Old 24th May 2009 | Show parent
  #613
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BLueROom ➑️
Andy, just wanted to say...again... that this is without a doubt one of the best software comps on the market. I use it on the time on drum buss and even 2buss. It actually "feels" like an analog comp with how it reacts. You really have a winner here and $99 bucks was a steal!
Excellent! It's really great to hear this kind of feedback. Please help spread the word about it as I have pretty much zero marketing budget

I'm a big believer in affordable audio software. I think the move by apple to lower the price of Logic Studio to US$499 is fantastic. Ableton Live is great value at US$449. I think for a high quality analog model compressor under 1/4 the price of either of these hosts is fair. US$99 is a price I would be happy paying myself, which to me is really important.

Andrew Simper
Old 24th May 2009 | Show parent
  #614
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankymax ➑️
+ 1 on a modeled summing plug- even if you have to make a host program for it I think it could be a big seller as long as you could run it alongside your DAW. PS- I'm lovin' The Glue!
"modeled summing"?

Okaaaaaayyy...

This request makes me wonder if people are understanding some basic concepts.

Or are people just baffled by/bewildered by/refuse to believe the concept that there's something that a computer can't do?

- c
Old 24th May 2009 | Show parent
  #615
Gear Addict
 
topperf's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya ➑️
"modeled summing"?

Okaaaaaayyy...

This request makes me wonder if people are understanding some basic concepts.

Or are people just baffled by/bewildered by/refuse to believe the concept that there's something that a computer can't do?

- c
You trust your ears i guess? That's a good thing - a great computer is controlling them.
Old 25th May 2009 | Show parent
  #616
Lives for gear
 
feck's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya ➑️
"modeled summing"?

Okaaaaaayyy...

This request makes me wonder if people are understanding some basic concepts.

Or are people just baffled by/bewildered by/refuse to believe the concept that there's something that a computer can't do?

- c
True, I think many people don't understand what summing does. There is (currently) no way to model a summing unit digitally, since in essence the only/main benefit that they offer is analog headroom. If there was a way to digitally model analog headroom, digital would most certainly sound better than it currently does! And whoever developed the converters/algos to do it would be in the money....
Old 25th May 2009 | Show parent
  #617
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by feck ➑️
True, I think many people don't understand what summing does. There is (currently) no way to model a summing unit digitally, since in essence the only/main benefit that they offer is analog headroom. If there was a way to digitally model analog headroom, digital would most certainly sound better than it currently does! And whoever developed the converters/algos to do it would be in the money....
Computers have arbitrary resolution so headroom is not the issue here. What happens with something like the Neve 8816 is the same sort of thing that happens when you track through a compressor doing nothing. The signal in fact goes through transformers, op amps, transitors, capacitors and a bunch of other components that will alter the signal and make it sound good for various reasons. Also in a circuit each channel is not isolated from each other, there is always cross talk and other interactions going on.

Andrew Simper
Old 25th May 2009 | Show parent
  #618
Lives for gear
 
JustinAiken's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
The signal in fact goes through transformers, op amps, transitors, capacitors and a bunch of other components that will alter the signal and make it sound good for various reasons. Also in a circuit each channel is not isolated from each other, there is always cross talk and other interactions going on.
The question is, could you model all that?

(But I'd still rather have a Distressor...)
Old 25th May 2009 | Show parent
  #619
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
Computers have arbitrary resolution so headroom is not the issue here. What happens with something like the Neve 8816 is the same sort of thing that happens when you track through a compressor doing nothing. The signal in fact goes through transformers, op amps, transitors, capacitors and a bunch of other components that will alter the signal and make it sound good for various reasons. Also in a circuit each channel is not isolated from each other, there is always cross talk and other interactions going on.

Andrew Simper
I have a Dangerous D-Box in my little portable rig. Lemme tell you, it imparts no transformery, capacitory wizard sauce on the signal. While I like wizard sauce as much as anybody else (I am a client of this studio, after all, which is pretty much a wizard sauce factory), I think the wizard sauce component of this technology is overstated and leads to innocent, but fundamentally misguided notions like "please make a plug-in that does that."

The Dangerous (which was the product cited in the original request) is a Chris Muth-designed, super high fidelity circuit with a frequency response that goes from the truly subsonic to the ultrasonic. It brings no fairy dusty crosstalky black magic to the party. It is clear as a bell.

Clear as a freakin' bell.

What the Dangerous D-Box is, is a simple tool that allows me to (a) enjoy easy, elegant integration of my analog outboard [primary tools: thermionic culture phoenix, altamoda unicomp, smart c1, distressor, and a lunchbox of various eq's] into my mix, thereby allowing zero-latency multi-buss techniques, etc. (b) exploit the analog headroom extension (I can raise the levels of the signal within my DAW, thereby capturing them at higher resolution in the final mix, etc.) and (c) have more fun making music instead of worrying so much about DAW internal gain-staging headaches. It helps to have good converters to take advantage of this, which in my case is a Prism Orpheus. But, really, most any modern converter wil do.

The internet has created a mythology around analog technology that, particularly for young people who are growing up without it, has created a lot of confusion. They all seem to think DAWs are all about perfection and infinite/perfect resolution and that analog is just about imparting wizard sauce.

It seems that it's difficult for some people to believe that there's anything in the analog world that digital technology can't obviate. Generationally speaking, these tend to people who have grown up knowing nothing else. You can't blame them, really.

All of this is WAAAAAYYY OT from the Cytomic plug-in, which is amazing. You shouldn't distract yourself reading my boring prattling. Get back to designing us some fun presets and release this thing officially already!

- c
Old 26th May 2009 | Show parent
  #620
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
I finally downloaded the trial of this plug to test on the mix buss of a hard rock/metal mix i'm working on... quite nice... it did seem to effect stereo image a little, but the limiter stage can be pushed quite hard without loosing the meat of the snare etc. I look forward to testing it a little more before decided whether to buy or not.
Old 26th May 2009 | Show parent
  #621
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
A Distressor/1176 plugin (silverface & blackface all in one ) aka "The Crunch" as a follow up to "The Glue" would be perfect.
Old 26th May 2009 | Show parent
  #622
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
+1 for "The Crunch"

Hate to be a pain, but any time to work on the RTAS beta yet ?
Old 26th May 2009 | Show parent
  #623
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_cytomic ➑️
Hi Mark. Thanks for your post. I have a copy of the Gyraf schematic already. I am interested in full schematics of the SSL 4000 bus compressor and the rack equivalent. The ones I have seen so far only have one of the main and sidechain amps shown, and no markings to show part numbers of the other one and how it connects.

Andrew Simper
So does this mean that you have modeled "The Glue" after the Gyraf DIY clone?

Interesting...
Old 26th May 2009 | Show parent
  #624
Gear Maniac
 
chrisma's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Let's see here...

"The Glue" ()

"The Crunch" (+1 on that )

and

"The Punch" DBX 160 (Hint Hint )
Old 26th May 2009 | Show parent
  #625
Gear Addict
 
topperf's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
And a decrapper while you're at it, please.
Old 26th May 2009 | Show parent
  #626
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Staying off topic for just one more post.

@Silver Sonya: If the outboard mixer you are using is completely pristine then there is no problem doing this same task on a computer since the amount of headroom you have on 64 bit data memory elements is stupendous. There is enough precision here to not have a problem doing precise calculations for scientific computing where literally astronomical numbers are in use.

Even for a simple 32 fixed point mixing engine of 24 bit files this is what should happen: 32-24 = 8 bits for headroom. Each time you adjust the gain of a signal you need to dither, but the summation of all these dithers doesn't add much total noise since the dither is uncorrelated. So in total we have around 3*Sqrt(N) to fit into 2^8 bits, which means we can mix around 5000 signals without a problem with a 32 bit number and still introduce no clipping and no dither noise within 24 bit number range. We do have to introduce one final lot of dither when we go back to 24 bit to save to disk, which leaves us with -141 dB or non noise signal. (edit) This last quantization step is still needed when you sample from analog to 24 bit digital so can be ignored in the context of using an external summing mixer.

Andrew Simper
Old 26th May 2009 | Show parent
  #627
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphonic ➑️
A Distressor/1176 plugin (silverface & blackface all in one ) aka "The Crunch" as a follow up to "The Glue" would be perfect.
LOL I was thinking for an 1176 or Distressor something like The Vice, but I think that's taken.

Andrew Simper
Old 26th May 2009 | Show parent
  #628
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisma ➑️
Let's see here...

"The Glue" ()

"The Crunch" (+1 on that )

and

"The Punch" DBX 160 (Hint Hint )
Excellent name suggestions guys
Old 26th May 2009 | Show parent
  #629
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by lydpik ➑️
So does this mean that you have modeled "The Glue" after the Gyraf DIY clone?

Interesting...
I looked at both the SSL 4000 and gyraf schematics. I have also made custom modifications to the circuits. I have two sidechain amps that feed into the single envelope follower, and these have absolute value rectifiers on each of the stereo sidechain signals so you never get phase cancellation problems.

Andrew Simper
Old 26th May 2009 | Show parent
  #630
Cytomic
 
andy-cytomic's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enerjex ➑️
I finally downloaded the trial of this plug to test on the mix buss of a hard rock/metal mix i'm working on... quite nice... it did seem to effect stereo image a little, but the limiter stage can be pushed quite hard without loosing the meat of the snare etc. I look forward to testing it a little more before decided whether to buy or not.
Thanks for checking out The Glue, hopefully you will be hooked in no time. Please note that The Glue applies the same gain to the left and right signal, so doesn't alter the stereo image.

Andrew Simper
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