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"Summing" inside a "legacy" Metric Halo 2882
Old 23rd May 2010 | Show parent
  #61
Gear Nut
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by astronmr20 ➡️
Resurrecting this post.

Wondering if anyone else would chime in on their MH mobile I/O setup...
With regards to the whole mio console summing stuff:

I did a test today comparing logic studio and the mio console. First, I did a mix completely in logic, and then I took that same mix and output every channel to the the mio console separately. Fader levels, automation, fx, plugins, whatever all remained exactly the same....the summing was simply done by mio console.

I then imported these two mixes into a new project, bussed them together, and inverted the polarity of one of the mixes.

What I heard back was nothing - complete and perfect silence. This confirms what mathematically should be obvious in the first place: there is absolutely no difference in the outcome of summing using either mixer.

I did the same test while running 'character' plugins on all of the tracks plus the mix bus. Depending on the character plugin, the result varied. For example, "modern tube soft sat" produced more of a difference between the two tracks, while "classic british mic pre" and "American transformer" required 50-60 dB of gain after the null before the difference became audible (in other words, they were almost a perfect null).


With regards to the mobile I/Os being flexible, quality converters, interfaces, and routing devices:

They are seriously capable.
Old 17th July 2010 | Show parent
  #62
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
The sound using the MIO mixer is definitely better than logic - but it's a terrific pain to work with two DAW's at the same time - MIO/Logic users need some cool templates in both logic and the MIO to make this work
Old 17th July 2010 | Show parent
  #63
Tui
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Tui's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Another "My DAW sounds better than your DAW" debate.

The people who argue that different DAWs and different digital mixers sound differently, are the same who object to phase cancellation tests.

It all makes perfect sense. 32-bit sounds better than 24-bit, but 80-bit sounds even better.
Old 25th July 2010 | Show parent
  #64
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
sure, but things definitely sound better through the mio mixer
Old 8th September 2012
  #65
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bakerman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
am contemplating the LIO/ULN8 at the moment and stumbled across this. Already have a 2882 and the MIO does sound much wider/separated than Logic and as a ITB mixing platform it yields better results for me than mixing in Logic or PT alone.
Old 8th September 2012 | Show parent
  #66
Gear Nut
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Davis ➡️
Lagerfeldt,

The biggest difference between an MIO and most DAWs is precision of interim calculations, and how the sums are handled internally. The benefits of 80 bit summing are most apparent in 2 contexts:
- when there's dsp being applied before or with the sum (as in the aforementioned character plugs, or complex chains).
- when there are a ton of tracks, and/or submixed or grouped tracks (ie 2 stage summing).

Let's start with the first case, and let me offer a familiar example. If you open up a TDM session, and raise/lower the gain with any plugin you want in successive non-integer steps (e.g. up 1 dB, then down 1dB), the output stops nulling with the source almost immediately, and each successive round trip calculation gets worse. By contrast, in Logic or most native DAWs these days, you can do this all day and all night, and the source keeps on nulling. This is because sufficient precision (32 bit float) is maintained throughout the audio engine for the task at hand. This is pretty well understood and easily duplicated, so that's the first distinction.

Try the same experiment with an equalizer set to reciprocal curves (e.g. an RIAA curve). At this point the plug/method starts to matter more. The TDM version may even null BETTER than the 32 bit float version in some cases, because both systems are starting to bang the rails, and the effects of anti-imaging filters begin taking a toll on the data's integrity. For whatever reason, the MIO filters and mixer null better in this case, suggesting some benefit for the greater precision.

The benefit comes from preserving the precision all the way through the chain, from input to output. 64 bit floating point systems like Sonar and soundBlade sound better as process hosts, because they're able to pass 64 bit words to the next plug in the chain, which pushes the calculation error waaaaaaaay down in the noise weeds, far below where we'll later truncate or dither our way back to ear-depth (16 or 24 bit fixed AES words).

In digital, error is analogous to noise in analog: it's always there, so the game is keeping it well-below the signal of interest. All DSP brings error, with the exception of simple bit shifts (multiply/divide by 2), which merely scales the existing error according to magnitude of the shift. In practice, most vanilla plugs do bad things to the output in fixed point systems. Floating point plugs are more gentle with the error-floor on the order of a 48 bit fixed system, but at the end of the day the noise floor is still a bit closer to ear/gozinta depth than a 64 bit float or 80 bit fixed point system. With every successive process, error is always added (if only magnifying or distorting the existing error in the captured signal). These errors are cumulative. They add up, so chains of complex processes always have a greater error/signal than simpler ones, including repeated roundings up or down of a more precise calculation. So there are 2 paths of error to be concerned about...
- the inherent error of each calculation step (precision of original calculation - e.g. some plugs work at 64 bits internally and pass 32 or 24)
- the accumulated error of all calculation steps (each rounding/truncation, added to the next increases the sum of the error in the mix).
It's easy to measure this phenomenon in TDM vs native systems as mentioned, because we can store and compare 24 bit WAVs to 32 bit CAFs directly through nulling, so none of this is new or surprising. The benefits of higher precisions still are less obvious: we can't compare easily because there's no intermediate format or method... we can indirectly do it in a 64 bit DAW, but those who've invested in 32 bit technology can call "voodoo" because the comparison or experiment is only apparent in the higher precision system, with steps that preserve that precision.

When mixing many tracks, the sum gets bigger and bigger. Each sample has a remainder that matters as well. So the exponent grows as well. 32 bit float systems do a great job with this, and have plenty of dynamic range. But as numbers get larger, steps get bigger and precision lags. The difference between a 64 bit sum and a 32 at the output is going to depend mostly on how you round or get down at the outputs... the more tracks, or alternately the more SUBMIXES (which are effectively plug-ins, and additional truncation/error opportunities) you need to manage a complex mix, the greater the benefit.

It's important to remember these benefits are TINY. And the losses in any system, 24 bit TDM or native 32 float, can be managed and minimized by the operator to insignificance. Precision's not a magic bullet. Rather it's a tool that can make gain changes a literal "free lunch" (long strings of gain reciprocal changes always null to source), make submixes and complex mixes more useful in all contexts because they're lossless within the high precision mixer, and when properly engineered, allow fully reciprocal general DSP, like eq and such. To the extent one is careful in method and tools, these benefits are attainable in a native 32 bit system. They're just more accessible, and less dependent on tactics in higher precision systems like the MIO.

-d-
I quote the whole thing because, seems like this threads been answered pretty darn good! hehe - yet everyone just keeps going on
Old 30th December 2013 | Show parent
  #67
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by astronmr20 ➡️
Resurrecting this post.

Wondering if anyone else would chime in on their MH mobile I/O setup...
Re-Resurrecting this post . I guess I'm Going to have to agree and disagree with some on here… I have a 3 box MH setup with all the 2d cards..
One ULN8 and 2 ULN2's and +dsp, Had the setup for a while now, probably over 5 years, ULN8 I added when It came out.. I have always summed through my MIO's and NEVER thought to test the differences.

Now, You also have to excuse my methods, but I do own just about Every high end plug on the planet, I lately use Uad (two quads) I use some waves, Eq's I use Fabfilter and Portico mainly, compressors, UAD and portico, Some waves, some PA plugs.. Anyhow

Using Logic X, and Mio. I have produced a Song that exceeded 70 tracks, and to be honest, I was just Interested to know what's going on with all this MIO VS DAW Mambo Jumbo… Been noticing these threads for a while now and decided to do a test by myself..

To be honest, to my ears, I can honestly say this. If you keep your faders in logic LOW, you can achieve a great mix. and when I say LOW i mean some tracks are barely audible, I want to see my master fader NOT exceeding -10 DB.

When Mixed in MIO, you don't really have to worry about that as much because well, MIO can take much more heat than Logic can, I still keep MIO's faders a -3 db just in case, NOTHING you do can not be made louder in the mastering stages, but If you do run your faders HOT, your sound will change..

So In my experience, IF you know what you are doing, you can get pleasing mixes from both ways. they are a little different, ONE is NOT better than the other, and the mixes are NOT interchangeable, meaning if you mixed to one Master, and then want to check your mix in the separate MIO changeless, and reroute the Tracks to Different MIO channels, YOU WILL need to change your mix a little, But that's a whole different subject.

For me, I love my MIO, I'm used to it, and the sound it provides, so I will keep on using it regardless of technical specs.

One last thing, I will listen to an OK sounding mix of a great song all day, before I will think about turning on a GREAT mix of an OK song.

Hope that makes sense Sorry for the typo's
Old 17th June 2015 | Show parent
  #68
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Bump.

Found this thread as I was trying to find info on why mixing within the MIO (as opposed to my DAW: DP8) sounds so much better...

But yes, I've summed using the MIO and it does indeed sound better than my mixes done in DP. Not sure if this is because of me or DP (I'll assume the former just to be safe) but things just seem easier to make "sound good" in the MIO.

Cliche-alert: Everything does indeed seem to "breathe easier".
Old 31st January 2020 | Show parent
  #69
Deleted e2a9217
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett ➡️
See? All one has to do is DO IT and the debate is closed. Done. You can talk theoretical mumbo jumbo all day. What matters is what actually IS.
Bumping an ancient and fascinating thread with new observations. I'm now running two LIO-8 3D boxes, and just conducted a comparison of a 24-track Logic X mix (all real acoustic/electric instrumentation tracked in my studio). The test setup:

a) A song summed/mixed in Logic @ 96k and using the 64bit mixer setting in Logic. Logic 2-bus peaking at -6dB or so. I'm using a variety of third party plugins including BX Focusrite SC channelstrip, LX480, Arouser, Metric Halo Production Bundle, etc.

b) The exact same Logic mix file, but my 16 stereo sub stems sent from Logic to MIO console and summed to a 2-bus in MIO. No character plugin used, or any other plugin in MIO. Logic is doing the individual track panning, levels, automation, Aux sends etc. All final sub busses are going out to MIO in the aforementioned 16 stereo stems. No fader adjustments or panning (these are stereo stems) in MIO, just running through it then summing in MIO's 2-Bus.

c) I usually have analog hardware on the 2-bus, but for both mix comparisons I kept it off to focus on the internal summing at play.

What I hear is this, and it isn't subtle:

- way louder reverb and delay clarity (I'm running a Bricasti M7 among others); it's as if the reverb stems got pushed up 3-6db in level. They haven't changed, it's just that you can hear them so clearly now, and front-back imaging is better/wider.

- drum transients better preserved and separated in MIO. Folding Mio mix to mono and out one monitor only, then ABing the two mixes is revelatory. There is absolutely a marked difference in depth, separation, punch and clarity using MIO this way. Mono monitoring really exposes this.

- Kick drum has a little bigger presence and is 'breathing' better for lack of a better term.

- One would have to mix from the beginning through this MIO summing to gain full benefit, as right now the MIO mix is brighter than Logic due to aforementioned clarity breaking through whatever bottleneck Logic's 2-Bus is creating and which I mixed into originally. But doing a mix through MIO from the beginning should be fantastic.

- definitely a wider overall soundstage in MIO. I wonder if letting MIO do the panning would increase this further, but will not be trying this because it's a level of additional mix complexity and dancing between Logic and MIO that I don't want to contemplate. The way I'm using it, MIO as a 16 stem summing console is set and forget and identical for every project.

These are my observations, take them for what they are worth. There is something seriously great about Metric Halo's MIO mixer and something inferior about Logic's to my ears. I had previously been summing mixes with an Iz Radar and a Midas Verona console, so I know what a half-decent (fairly clean, a tad dark, and not gloriously coloured of course) analog board can accomplish in terms of width and separation.

All of the above said, I love Logic X for its snappy workflow, user-friendly (I've been working in it since 2004) interface, key commands, MCU control-friendly connectivity etc. This is a happy marriage of two impressive pieces of software at the moment.

Can anyone recommend transparent software to interleave the 2-bus Left and Right tracks captured in MIO's record panel? Would like to avoid bringing it back into Logic to bounce down to 44.1/16 etc

Last edited by Deleted e2a9217; 31st January 2020 at 10:21 PM.. Reason: Added more info
Old 3rd February 2020 | Show parent
  #70
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by petergreeny ➡️
Can anyone recommend transparent software to interleave the 2-bus Left and Right tracks captured in MIO's record panel? Would like to avoid bringing it back into Logic to bounce down to 44.1/16 etc
In 3d, if you record directly from the two-bus via the record panel, it will record it to to a stereo interleaved file. This is different from 2d; in 3d we use the width of the strip to control the file interleaving (rather than recording everything mono like we did in 2d).
Old 3rd February 2020 | Show parent
  #71
Deleted e2a9217
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by mh_bj ➡️
In 3d, if you record directly from the two-bus via the record panel, it will record it to to a stereo interleaved file. This is different from 2d; in 3d we use the width of the strip to control the file interleaving (rather than recording everything mono like we did in 2d).
Thanks BJ! I actually discovered this shortly after posting my inquiry but forgot to update my remarks. I love this new feature - thanks for chiming in.
Old 3rd February 2020 | Show parent
  #72
Gear Maniac
 
bakerman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by petergreeny ➡️
Bumping an ancient and fascinating thread with new observations. I'm now running two LIO-8 3D boxes, and just conducted a comparison of a 24-track Logic X mix (all real acoustic/electric instrumentation tracked in my studio). The test setup:

a) A song summed/mixed in Logic @ 96k and using the 64bit mixer setting in Logic. Logic 2-bus peaking at -6dB or so. I'm using a variety of third party plugins including BX Focusrite SC channelstrip, LX480, Arouser, Metric Halo Production Bundle, etc.

b) The exact same Logic mix file, but my 16 stereo sub stems sent from Logic to MIO console and summed to a 2-bus in MIO. No character plugin used, or any other plugin in MIO. Logic is doing the individual track panning, levels, automation, Aux sends etc. All final sub busses are going out to MIO in the aforementioned 16 stereo stems. No fader adjustments or panning (these are stereo stems) in MIO, just running through it then summing in MIO's 2-Bus.

c) I usually have analog hardware on the 2-bus, but for both mix comparisons I kept it off to focus on the internal summing at play.

What I hear is this, and it isn't subtle:

- way louder reverb and delay clarity (I'm running a Bricasti M7 among others); it's as if the reverb stems got pushed up 3-6db in level. They haven't changed, it's just that you can hear them so clearly now, and front-back imaging is better/wider.

- drum transients better preserved and separated in MIO. Folding Mio mix to mono and out one monitor only, then ABing the two mixes is revelatory. There is absolutely a marked difference in depth, separation, punch and clarity using MIO this way. Mono monitoring really exposes this.

- Kick drum has a little bigger presence and is 'breathing' better for lack of a better term.

- One would have to mix from the beginning through this MIO summing to gain full benefit, as right now the MIO mix is brighter than Logic due to aforementioned clarity breaking through whatever bottleneck Logic's 2-Bus is creating and which I mixed into originally. But doing a mix through MIO from the beginning should be fantastic.

- definitely a wider overall soundstage in MIO. I wonder if letting MIO do the panning would increase this further, but will not be trying this because it's a level of additional mix complexity and dancing between Logic and MIO that I don't want to contemplate. The way I'm using it, MIO as a 16 stem summing console is set and forget and identical for every project.

These are my observations, take them for what they are worth. There is something seriously great about Metric Halo's MIO mixer and something inferior about Logic's to my ears. I had previously been summing mixes with an Iz Radar and a Midas Verona console, so I know what a half-decent (fairly clean, a tad dark, and not gloriously coloured of course) analog board can accomplish in terms of width and separation.

All of the above said, I love Logic X for its snappy workflow, user-friendly (I've been working in it since 2004) interface, key commands, MCU control-friendly connectivity etc. This is a happy marriage of two impressive pieces of software at the moment.

Can anyone recommend transparent software to interleave the 2-bus Left and Right tracks captured in MIO's record panel? Would like to avoid bringing it back into Logic to bounce down to 44.1/16 etc
Thanks for adding to this thread, I've also been firing up MIO with console connect for some dense mixes and doing it all ITB. I completely agree, the transients seem to retain more punch and there's less masking going on with the low end, more width in general. I'm still on 2D here, but am considering the 3D upgrade for sure. The workflow takes getting used to but the 2882 has been a great asset in my studio for so many years.
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