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"Summing" inside a "legacy" Metric Halo 2882
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #31
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tomdarude's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I´m with Henry 150% regarding the pure experience & results as soon as I switch from a Logic mix to the MIO mixer!

I think I posted it numerous times before

...WHO CAN MIX A FRIGGIN RECORD IN LOGIC???...how the f**** ???

(granted I haven´t been using a MacPro yet, but tried hard on a Dual G5, 2,4GHz Intel iMac, Macbook and MacbookPro!)

whenever I see a nice Apple Logic demo there are a million tracks of loops, VIs, few audios, etc.....lined up next to each other to nirvana, they show how many sounds are included and how you can make a nice filmscore in 15minutes with apple loos and VIs...and I must say...I LOVE LOGIC for that, it´s great, it´s cheap and it´s all people were dreaming of 10 years ago.....

BUT

then....whenever in the studio someone tracks a whole rock/pop/indie band on Logic, has multi-miked!!!!! sources.....maybe even in a stereo image......room mics...etc. etc.
and then tries to MIX entirely in Logic.....suddenly, the more faders go up the narrower, ****tier and more unstable (image/phase relationships wise) the mix gets!!! period.

I tried it, friends tried it, other friends tried it.....always the same.....those people that had great ears & experience, a proper monitoring/room set-up always had the same problems!!
All those friends now have either Dangerous 2-Bus/outboard set-ups (mostly even got PT HD along), 1 quit recording (partly of frustration with this set-up, having made records on SSL 4k before), another one even said f+++ it and got an AWS900

All agreed to my experiences that whatever goes on in the Logic mixer, as soon as the cpu is taxed above some percentage, as soon as the bussing structure goes deeper, as soon as sends are used for parallel stuff.......it´s simply NOT phase coherent at all !! even worse...the **** happens dynamically!!!....stop, save, close, reopen, start.....sounds different.
open more plugins on anoher track, mute it, again sounds different!

doing the same things in the MIO....at least feels and sounds 100x better to me everytime real recordings are involved!!

the only other time I was "subjectively" so absolutely wowed and stunned about the "feel" and experience with a digital mixing engine was on the new Fairlight CC-1

now take a 60+ tracks mix of a great acoustic and well tracked dynamic song...
mix down on the Fairlight (or even in the MIO) and then mix it in Logic (with whatever pan law you like)....in theory they should null??....will they

I don´t think so....




just my very personal 2,756338223462 ct. (rounded in 80bit fixed)
heh
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #32
Audio Alchemist
 
Lagerfeldt's Avatar
The problem is that even though you state it's "a personal opinion" as some form of disclaimer you are contributing to a myth, and unfortunately a lot of people buy into this myth. And they buy into it with their money too.

It then gets regurgitated and keeps on going around and around on various internet forums.

It's exactly the same as saying it's my personal opinion that 1 +1 = 2.5. While there can be a very small and mostly theoretical difference it's certainly not of a magnitude as to be relatively discernible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdarude ➡️
as soon as the bussing structure goes deeper
You can route as much as you like, back and forth, scale up and scale down - and the result is still perfect. It nulls completely.

Quote:
as soon as sends are used for parallel stuff.......it´s simply NOT phase coherent at all !!
Perfectly phase coherent here when doing parallel processing or anything else.

If you have a problem with phase then check your PDC settings. Be aware that changing somethings on the fly will make it go out of phase until it locks down the latency compensation or you've pressed start/stop.

If you have a problem with your mix getting "narrower" then check your gain structure and what you're doing to the sound in your plug-ins, and how you're mixing. It's certainly not the summing causing this by default. Hidden clipping can make things sound narrower because of trasient dulling, i.e. clipping the input of a fixed input 3rd party plug-in since this won't show on the meters. I see this happen all the time.

But in a floating point application like Logic there's absolutely NO difference between banging your faders all the way up and pulling down on the master, or pulling your faders down and banging up the master. Except of course once you start opening plug-ins on the master or busses - then you need to mind your gain structure. But that goes for all digital mixing systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdarude ➡️
All agreed to my experiences that whatever goes on in the Logic mixer, as soon as the cpu is taxed above some percentage
Taxing the CPU at various amounts of stress gives me 100% identical sound results in a null test.

Also, the result of summing in Logic Pro, Cubase, Nuendo or Pro Tools is 100% or 99,999% identical if you account for pan law and self-dithering. Even though Logic Pro, Cubase and Nuendo work in floating point and Pro Tools HD works in 48 fixed.

Hundreds of million selling hits have been recorded, produced and mixed in these sequencers, including Logic Pro. I know I have done just that several times.

To answer your initial question: how did I do that? It works just like it should so I didn't do anything special actually, and I certainly didn't blame the summing engine if it didn't sound right. ;-)

If you have to mix entirely ITB then you need to think about audio slightly differently than when mixing analog. You generally have to apply compression slightly differently or one more layer of compression. Also you will miss the width associated with analog distortion and subjectively pleasing phase changes of stereo signals. But that's another discussion.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #33
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henryrobinett's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I still think you're missing what I'm saying. It's as if you're being defensive about something that other people have insisted, but that I'm not saying. I am not furthering any myth.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #34
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Lagerfeldt's Avatar
My post is directed at the post just above mine, not you. I'm quoting Tom.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #35
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AdamJay's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
a wise woman once said "every tool is a weapon if you hold it right"

some tools being sharper than others.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #36
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henryrobinett's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt ➡️
My post is directed at the post just above mine, not you. I'm quoting Tom.
Oh.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #37
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🎧 15 years
more headroom with analog summing units means for me that i can
move my faders as much as i want within my daw
which gives me finer increments in the upper ranges of my daws faders than the lower ones

so can i stay within the upper ranges of my faders with the MH 2882?
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #38
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Geert van den Berg's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
It could be the DAW sounds different when bouncing live to another track or other recorder than when it bounces offline...

It shouldn't sound different, but I think it can, depending on the CPU load. When you bounce offline, the computer can take all the time it needs to render. And if you sum out, I am sure the CPU gets taxed a little less.

I believe that routing out and sum via the MIO can sound better. I have tried the same thing with my fireface and it does sound different or feels different.

I didn't do a null-test, as I found routing everything out to be inconvenient. I like that I can bounce faster than realtime for quick references on other systems.

But ... a null-test is what is needed to solve this myth...

Even if the outcome on playback for one file feels better, if the 2 files cancel out completely, it's a fact that they're the same. Let's not disagree on that.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #39
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tomdarude's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hey Lagerfeldt, (was that Holger??)

I think this is a topic that involves a lot of factors....actually I don´t think we´ll find
an "agreement" on this here online!
I´d love to discuss this further with you sometime in person, at best trying those things out once and forever in a nice real life studio situation!!

here, we´re only comparing our personal experiences which of course WILL be different!

I absolutely believe you experienced no problems whatsoever working in Logic,
I know also that I have and at least 3 more friends have too (and I was sitting next to them in their studios)

I might find the time in the next days/weeks to make a short screenshot-movie of a repeatable problem from those days...and I´d love your opinion....

maybe I´m really just too dumb for ITB and you save me from spending on a private PT HD rig this year....You´d earn yourself a dinner, if you can heh




so for the record:

that was my personal experience.....everyone try for yourself and only buy anything expensive if you´re not satisfied!

for a hit-record you surely need even less than garageband (another topic alltogether!)



BUT to pick your brain a little more on your approach.....where (and why THERE of course?) do you decrease your levels in Logic??

tracking REALLY low at -22 peaks / -32-35 RMS ??
gainer plugin (-6dB / -10dB) in the first plugin slot?
Logic fader low ?
Busses / Masterfader low ??


I started very early with a Dangerous box and now also use the MIO mixer, so I rather always "escaped" from these problems very early on....should make some more test myself someday!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt ➡️
The problem is that even though you state it's "a personal opinion" as some form of disclaimer you are contributing to a myth, and unfortunately a lot of people buy into this myth. And they buy into it with their money too.

It then gets regurgitated and keeps on going around and around on various internet forums.

It's exactly the same as saying it's my personal opinion that 1 +1 = 2.5. While there can be a very small and mostly theoretical difference it's certainly not of a magnitude as to be relatively discernible.



You can route as much as you like, back and forth, scale up and scale down - and the result is still perfect. It nulls completely.


Perfectly phase coherent here when doing parallel processing or anything else.

If you have a problem with phase then check your PDC settings. Be aware that changing somethings on the fly will make it go out of phase until it locks down the latency compensation or you've pressed start/stop.

If you have a problem with your mix getting "narrower" then check your gain structure and what you're doing to the sound in your plug-ins, and how you're mixing. It's certainly not the summing causing this by default. Hidden clipping can make things sound narrower because of trasient dulling, i.e. clipping the input of a fixed input 3rd party plug-in since this won't show on the meters. I see this happen all the time.

But in a floating point application like Logic there's absolutely NO difference between banging your faders all the way up and pulling down on the master, or pulling your faders down and banging up the master. Except of course once you start opening plug-ins on the master or busses - then you need to mind your gain structure. But that goes for all digital mixing systems.


Taxing the CPU at various amounts of stress gives me 100% identical sound results in a null test.

Also, the result of summing in Logic Pro, Cubase, Nuendo or Pro Tools is 100% or 99,999% identical if you account for pan law and self-dithering. Even though Logic Pro, Cubase and Nuendo work in floating point and Pro Tools HD works in 48 fixed.

Hundreds of million selling hits have been recorded, produced and mixed in these sequencers, including Logic Pro. I know I have done just that several times.

To answer your initial question: how did I do that? It works just like it should so I didn't do anything special actually, and I certainly didn't blame the summing engine if it didn't sound right. ;-)

If you have to mix entirely ITB then you need to think about audio slightly differently than when mixing analog. You generally have to apply compression slightly differently or one more layer of compression. Also you will miss the width associated with analog distortion and subjectively pleasing phase changes of stereo signals. But that's another discussion.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #40
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tomdarude's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
as THIS is clearly an objective problem within 32 float DAWs as you stated....has anyone compiled a list of plugins that have this fixed input problem??

I think whatever those plugs are....applying them certainly can only make the signal worse rather than better and they should be avoided alltogether, not?

I HATE to be lied to on all those software packages, which promise things the software can´t actually do!
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #41
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dirtboy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I mix ITB using logic 8 on a daily basis. No problems and sounds great. The only difference the MIO makes is when using their character plugs. Nice stuff but nothing you can't do just as well within Logic itself. Analog summing will make a difference (not better or worse, just different) this one without plugs/pan law involved won't.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #42
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bannerj's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
it is the 80bit mixer that is the big deal, but now with the 2D setting up the summing should be a breeze. I haven't summed in mine in a while since I have a console for that now, and I haven't upgraded to the 2D. Still thinking on that esp since peeps are saying the conversion is improved.
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #43
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BenJah's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I was surprised to notice a similar difference when summing using RME's total mix. This I believe offers similar higher precision dsp based mixing as the metric halo.

I was not expecting there to be a difference but to my ears there quite clearly was. The summing engine on the RME card is much more highly specced than your typical DAW and it's not particularly remarkable that a improvement in sound quality can be fairly easily discerned.

I'm imagining the same goes for the metric halo mixer.
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #44
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenJah ➡️
I was surprised to notice a similar difference when summing using RME's total mix. This I believe offers similar higher precision dsp based mixing as the metric halo.

I was not expecting there to be a difference but to my ears there quite clearly was. The summing engine on the RME card is much more highly specced than your typical DAW and it's not particularly remarkable that a improvement in sound quality can be fairly easily discerned.

I'm imagining the same goes for the metric halo mixer.
That's my guess,

But to give deference to both sides here, there is no technical "proof."

However, people are hearing it, as you mention. Not just hobbyists, but pros like Henry who use Logic every day.


Big Blue Lounge has a MH section, where I posted the same question. If it's kosher to link to other forums, I'll post or copy/paste if I get some more solid answers from MH.

Anyhow, there are some great templates in the V5 mixer, but I believe one has to have 2D to use it. As Henry mentioned, there is a way to do this in the legacy box (which is why I posted this thread), but it's like reaching around your ass to scratch some front part of your body. I remember years ago reading an explination, and my brain melted.

I'm ready to try again!

Or I don't know... 2D is only $400. MIght be worth skipping the headache to bite the bullet!
Old 8th February 2009 | Show parent
  #45
Gear Nut
 
🎧 10 years
guys, how are you bouncing/rendering the final mix as a usable 2-trk?

for what it's worth I once mixed a track ITB with Logic, then as an experiment, stemmed it out into the RME Fireface, and sort of summed through that. I'm not sure how the Halo and the Fireface differ in that respect, but...

I can prove that the track sounded better summed through the FF, even after being recorded to DAT and played back into Logic for mastering.

But I demand 24-bit mixes to master, plus would rather not have to record to DAT at 16-bit, & then have the faff of recording back into Logic for mastering etc

I mean, you can't just record-enable a track in Logic and record the output of the Halo/Fireface back in, at 24bit, or can you??? Well, one good reason I can't is that my trusty, soon to be retired G5 struggles to play back a finished mix all the way through in real time.

But, the most fundamental reason is this: I did try this method very scientifically a few times back in the day (albeit with with older cards) and always perceived a slight phasing problem, perhaps I should experiment again in this millennium? Hmmm...

I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #46
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt ➡️
Thank you for the details.

As we probably agree the "benefits" are academic or highly theoretical, especially if you consider the procedure you have to go thru first.

When some people claim to hear massive changes it is due to different pan law settings or other procedures which makes an A/B test incorrect. Or placebo, of course.
I _think_ so, but to be clear:

The benefits of headroom in most well-implemented native daws (logic, nuendo, sonar) vs PTHD is NOT academic or theoretical, even in typical applications. I was in a big ICON-based control room with an HD rig that was quite easy to drive into garbage, simply by making the mistake of _not_ moving a fader!

Not only does the channel capacity of these systems exceeds the headroom of the bus in some installations, but there's no reciprocity (nulling) in a single channel strip chain... in other words, you cannot get the original signal back after a string of reciprocal DSP operations as simple as gain changes. This is because the system is designed to give up some precision in normal operation. With musical gear, like standalone DAWs and simple 24 bit recording systems, it can be a real problem in normal use.

So, while I'd note this is generally not the case in Logic et al, it's not exactly a problem limited to labs. Rather it's as old as the first analog console: unless you're working in a 64 bit float or 80 bit fixed point world, quality is too-often dependent on the engineer's ability to manage (or at least understand) the gain structure of the device as well as his mix.

The problem is, many daw users have little experience with gain staging/management in that context...
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #47
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
As a Logic and MIO user, I prefer mixing in the MIO for a number of reasons (sound related).

But I should be clear that we're not talking magic, and for the work I do the mix bus of Logic is perfectly equivalent to that of the MIO, and nulls as Lagerfeldt notes, when the chain/dsp is the same (e.g. all I'm doing is summing/scaling). Indeed, logic has a couple benefits, in it's output panel's capacity to apply a variety of dithers, based on where the mix is heading.

I like Character in the MIO. I like the summing there because it lets me think a lot less and move fewer faders. But when it comes to adding the numbers and rounding them off to "listening" formats (16, 24 or 32 bit files or signals to a dac), Logic will give me the same set of numbers if I route the outputs back to Logic. That seems like a lot of bother though, given that I actually USE the DSP in the MIO, and prefer it's implementation (passing full words between stages) to Logic's.

Bottom line: both sum great if you mind the details. I just have stuff I like to use in the mio, so that's where I do it.
Old 17th February 2009 | Show parent
  #48
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tomdarude's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Again just this afternoon, I felt like I´ve been wasting 50% of my time on internal gain-staging tasks....

(were checking some Softube / Logic Plugin combinations with a D.I. guitar just for ****s n giggles)


dfegad I truly can´t stand this....I want a least an SSL Matrix and more stellar Outboard!!


Analog is just SO much FUN!!
Old 25th April 2009 | Show parent
  #49
Gear Nut
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I have a legacy MH 2882 (I have a D2 card, uninstalled, I was having distortion issues with it when digital summing, I had to take it out to get work done, different issue...) and mixes summed inside the 2882 are wider and deeper than mixes created within DP6. I was very sceptical, but I'm not anymore, everything I've mixed sounds better when I use the 2882 digital summing to "spread out" the mix. I feel no need to explore analog summing, I get what I need from this digital summing, much more than I ever expected to get from it.
Old 25th April 2009 | Show parent
  #50
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henryrobinett's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
See? All one has to do is DO IT and the debate is closed. Done. You can talk theoretical mumbo jumbo all day. What matters is what actually IS.
Old 26th April 2009 | Show parent
  #51
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks to Dave Davis for some of the number-crunching behind this debate.

Back at the listening end, my own tests indicated a different and marginally preferable sound when summing in the MIO rather than Logic (and I haven't tested since v7 - some folks swear the sound of v8 is 'better'). Not quite the 'night and day' some are reporting but then I was only really summing 4 stereo stems and I'm not employing MIO DSP.

Even if I couldn't hear anything different, I'd prefer to be mindful of the old adage 'never turn your back on digital' and bounce exactly what I hear coming out of my Metric Halo 2882 into my monitors rather than take even the slightest risk that an ITB Logic bounce might alter the sound in any way at all. It costs nothing extra to do it this way so I can't see why one wouldn't, given the choice and given the overwhelming body of opinion that MIO summing does have sonic benefits over some if not most DAW's.
Old 27th July 2009 | Show parent
  #52
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdarude ➡️
I´m with Henry 150% regarding the pure experience & results as soon as I switch from a Logic mix to the MIO mixer!

I think I posted it numerous times before

...WHO CAN MIX A FRIGGIN RECORD IN LOGIC???...how the f**** ???

(granted I haven´t been using a MacPro yet, but tried hard on a Dual G5, 2,4GHz Intel iMac, Macbook and MacbookPro!)

whenever I see a nice Apple Logic demo there are a million tracks of loops, VIs, few audios, etc.....lined up next to each other to nirvana, they show how many sounds are included and how you can make a nice filmscore in 15minutes with apple loos and VIs...and I must say...I LOVE LOGIC for that, it´s great, it´s cheap and it´s all people were dreaming of 10 years ago.....

BUT

then....whenever in the studio someone tracks a whole rock/pop/indie band on Logic, has multi-miked!!!!! sources.....maybe even in a stereo image......room mics...etc. etc.
and then tries to MIX entirely in Logic.....suddenly, the more faders go up the narrower, ****tier and more unstable (image/phase relationships wise) the mix gets!!! period.

I tried it, friends tried it, other friends tried it.....always the same.....those people that had great ears & experience, a proper monitoring/room set-up always had the same problems!!
All those friends now have either Dangerous 2-Bus/outboard set-ups (mostly even got PT HD along), 1 quit recording (partly of frustration with this set-up, having made records on SSL 4k before), another one even said f+++ it and got an AWS900

All agreed to my experiences that whatever goes on in the Logic mixer, as soon as the cpu is taxed above some percentage, as soon as the bussing structure goes deeper, as soon as sends are used for parallel stuff.......it´s simply NOT phase coherent at all !! even worse...the **** happens dynamically!!!....stop, save, close, reopen, start.....sounds different.
open more plugins on anoher track, mute it, again sounds different!

doing the same things in the MIO....at least feels and sounds 100x better to me everytime real recordings are involved!!

the only other time I was "subjectively" so absolutely wowed and stunned about the "feel" and experience with a digital mixing engine was on the new Fairlight CC-1

now take a 60+ tracks mix of a great acoustic and well tracked dynamic song...
mix down on the Fairlight (or even in the MIO) and then mix it in Logic (with whatever pan law you like)....in theory they should null??....will they

I don´t think so....




just my very personal 2,756338223462 ct. (rounded in 80bit fixed)
heh

not to dredge up an old thread, but this is something i'm constantly curious about...

Tomdarude's experience is EXACTLY the same as mine and everybody else I know who regularly works in Logic. It's one of the principal reasons that 95% of LA's postproduction for projects originally created in Logic finish up in Pro Tools.

Mixing in Logic has always been a nightmare for me. It just doesn't sound right, ever -perhaps I'm using it wrong, if so, I'd love to learn to use it right. My (and at least 10 other similar producers/composers I know) that write and create principally in Logic have this same problem. Mixes out of Logic always end up sounding like trash, where the same AIFFs when dropped into Pro Tools and then mixed always end up feeling and sounding more like a record.

Even the composer/sequencer studios that start in Logic that don't use Pro Tools will print mixes through Ableton or Cubase just for the sake of getting out of that nasty Logic sound. Why is this? It's NOT just placebo and it's not just something made up as has been suggested, it's widespread and very well acknowledged.

I'm hoping that the combination of the MH box I just bought and Logic 9 will be able to stop me from buying an HD rig, but I'm not terribly optimistic...

Any thoughts Lagerfeldt? Dave Davis? Anybody else?

stike
Old 27th July 2009 | Show parent
  #53
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Old 30th July 2009 | Show parent
  #54
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdarude ➡️
(granted I haven´t been using a MacPro yet, but tried hard on a Dual G5, 2,4GHz Intel iMac, Macbook and MacbookPro!)
I assure you using a Mac Pro will help you not at all with this problem...

Quote:

then....whenever in the studio someone tracks a whole rock/pop/indie band on Logic, has multi-miked!!!!! sources.....maybe even in a stereo image......room mics...etc. etc.
and then tries to MIX entirely in Logic.....suddenly, the more faders go up the narrower, ****tier and more unstable (image/phase relationships wise) the mix gets!!! period.

...

All agreed to my experiences that whatever goes on in the Logic mixer, as soon as the cpu is taxed above some percentage, as soon as the bussing structure goes deeper, as soon as sends are used for parallel stuff.......it´s simply NOT phase coherent at all !! even worse...the **** happens dynamically!!!....stop, save, close, reopen, start.....sounds different.
open more plugins on anoher track, mute it, again sounds different!


heh

Couldn'tve said it better myself... Word for word!
Old 30th July 2009 | Show parent
  #55
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pounce's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Besides agreeing that my 2882 sounds better than a mix summed only in logic, I'll toss this out there. I have a yamaha dm2000 and I've taken to mixing with it and therefore summing with it. Like the other comments as comparing against itb mixing, the depth and width of my mixes are better preserved than when mixing itb alone. Noticeable difference. Slightly surprising since it's a digital mixer, but I do prefer mixes made with over itb only. I'd also used a summthing at another studio with an apogee symphony setup and the analog summing was greatly preferred by all in the studio.
Old 30th July 2009 | Show parent
  #56
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Wow, I find that kind of surprising, Paul. But on reflection, maybe not: Yamaha's always found ways to make good sounding gear (with really odd interfaces and spotty manuals) for a reasonable price. I had an old Yammy sampler that was a beast to use but sounded gorgeous (some 3rd party made a new os for it!).

As to the sound of mix bus...

In terms of sound, nothing I have or have used in the past 3 years beats my uln8 for summing. To put a finer point on it, that includes: Logic, PT HD and Mix (no LE), soundBlade, and lately Reaper. The caveat is I've not pushed sB or Reaper anywhere near as hard as the others (which I've measured and tested). A 2882 has the same chips, so should sound as good at summing.

Logic should sound fine too, but I see no reason 8 would sound worse than 9 or vice versa. One thing that trips people up in floating point land is the illusion of "infinite" resolution - it's true to a certain extent, but as numbers get bigger, near full scale, you either give up resolution, or lock down resolution behind the decimal point to stop the bleeding. Most daws lock down the decimal above a certain level to deal, so you shouldn't slam the bus in floating point land anymore than in fixed point systems like PTHD. In other words: Logic can sound better if you treat it like analog or any other gain structure, and keep the faders in a nominal range or lower (assuming lots of plug processing). Even if you're not clipping channels, feeding a daw's mix bus 20+ channels at full scale can sound gnarly. Drop everything by 6 dB, and it opens back up. This is pretty standard stuff in PTland, but native daw-ops seem to take resolution more for granted (that's how it's marketed, esp by Apple).

The MIO's mix bus is deeper than PT or any of the native DAWs, including Reaper and soundBlade, and very well engineered (many processes are fully reciprocal), so it works better at extremes, high and low. Pretty much like analog, without the noise.

-d-
Old 2nd August 2009 | Show parent
  #57
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt ➡️
Thank you for the details.

As we probably agree the "benefits" are academic or highly theoretical, especially if you consider the procedure you have to go thru first.

When some people claim to hear massive changes it is due to different pan law settings or other procedures which makes an A/B test incorrect. Or placebo, of course.
Yeah, I'd actually go farther: wrt your ultimate 24 bit "window" at the outputs, careful gain-staging can potentially eliminate any significant differences. One of my buddies uses Logic in his studio, which has a couple MH MIOs and a large format analog console of some repute, and depending on project workflow, uses all 3 for summing. In his case it's a matter of convenience, not sonics - he can get the same sound quality from both digital paths when things are properly set up (e.g. he's not smashing Logic's bus with 24 faders at 0 dbVU). The MIOs let him work a little "sloppier" than Logic allows (much more headroom), the console lets him use more analog outboard, and avoid hassles with conversion and compensation. None are "right" or inherently "better".

The only take home message for me: while methods may have changed, engineers still have to know what's going on in their DAW. Ludwig's Dictum remains in force: Turn your back on digital workflows at your own peril. Or put another way: when you "assume" with digital audio, you can make an ass of u and me.

-d-
Old 2nd August 2009 | Show parent
  #58
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
I have just jumped on the MH bandwagon.
I had got good results with external summing but I have to say that the MIO console is great.
I suspect that people who are sceptical just havent tried it - no disrespect

The panning is better apart from anything else and some of plug ins like character and transient controller are some of the best I've come across.
Old 2nd August 2009 | Show parent
  #59
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
The MIO's mix bus is deeper than PT or any of the native DAWs, including Reaper and soundBlade, and very well engineered (many processes are fully reciprocal), so it works better at extremes, high and low. Pretty much like analog, without the noise.

-d-[/QUOTE]

Dave- are you still running mixes through analog gear or are you staying ITB now?
Nigel
Old 12th April 2010 | Show parent
  #60
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Resurrecting this post.

Wondering if anyone else would chime in on their MH mobile I/O setup...
📝 Reply

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