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Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #31
Gear Maniac
 
Agreed's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by 25ghosts ➑️
ROTFLMAO ----- great analogy...... just plain and simple; great.
Plain, simple, and wrong.

Licensed software is not the same as a rented car. To correct the flaw in your analogy, it would be like making an exact copy of the rented car and keeping that, without depriving the original rental body of the car they have rented you, and then distributing the copy and further copies of the copy to anyone who wants it for free. Does it have an impact on your ability to rent out further cars? Probably, yes, and that's why software piracy is a ****ty thing to do. Is it identical to stealing the only rental car you have? No, not at all.

Edit: He even said it was a joke...
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #32
Gear Addict
 
RMJAZZ's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Talking

I just want to know when it became considered ok by the younger generation to download free music, when they are aware that it is not right to do so. And crack software is much worse in my mind. I know software and plug ins get expensive...so do Ferrrari's.....my neighbor has a brand new Porsche 911 turbo, I would like have it....but I can't afford one. That doesn't mean it's OK to take it, just because it is unreasonably expensive. I drive a Chrsyler...and am happy with what I can afford. I also can't afford to buy all the plug ins, and pre amps and mics that I want either...but I learn to live with what I can afford, and as such, I only download a few songs per week.......BECAUSE I PAY FOR IT!!!!!!!

I buy about one or two plug ins every couple of months too.....as I can afford them.


On the theft subject....you need to understand that music, movies ( even that crappy porn you guys are watching), software, as well as trademark and patent stuff...is classified as intillectual property and as such has rights to ownership.

Imagine you borrowing my neighbor's Porsche to go to a job interview. He washes and waxes that thing regularly, and takes care of the engine like it is his daughter. When you borrow his car, you enter it in an auto show. The car wins first place and you get a $10,000 award for it. The problem is, it isn't yours, and you did zero work for that cash.....should you give some (or all!!! ) to the owner of the car? The answer will tell what kind of person you are. No need to share your answer with the forum.......
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #33
Gear Maniac
 
Agreed's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMJAZZ ➑️
I just want to know when it became considered ok by the younger generation to download free music, when they are aware that it is not right to do so. And crack software is much worse in my mind. I know software and plug ins get expensive...so do Ferrrari's.....my neighbor has a brand new Porsche 911 turbo, I would like have it....but I can't afford one. That doesn't mean it's OK to take it, just because it is unreasonably expensive. I drive a Chrsyler...and am happy with what I can afford. I also can't afford to buy all the plug ins, and pre amps and mics that I want either...but I learn to live with what I can afford, and as such, I only download a few songs per week.......BECAUSE I PAY FOR IT!!!!!!!

I buy about one or two plug ins every couple of months too.....as I can afford them.


On the theft subject....you need to understand that music, movies ( even that crappy porn you guys are watching), software, as well as trademark and patent stuff...is classified as intillectual property and as such has rights to ownership.

Imagine you borrowing my neighbor's Porsche to go to a job interview. He washes and waxes that thing regularly, and takes care of the engine like it is his daughter. When you borrow his car, you enter it in an auto show. The car wins first place and you get a $10,000 award for it. The problem is, it isn't yours, and you did zero work for that cash.....should you give some (or all!!! ) to the owner of the car? The answer will tell what kind of person you are. No need to share your answer with the forum.......
All these car analogies suck because intellectual property rights are not nearly as straightforward or intuitive as physical property rights. In the above case, once again, the true analogy would be as follows: first, your neighbor is trying to sell his Porsche 911. You like it and think it would be a nice car for you, but the idea of buying it is out of the question. Instead of stealing your neighbor's Porsche 911, you instead make an identical copy of it by using some kind of magic car-copying scanner on his car, and then you also made identical copies for anyone else in the area who wanted one. Does this deprive him of his original Porsche 911, from which you made the copies? No, not at all. But it definitely makes it a lot harder for him to sell his.

This also has similar wrinkles analogous to the software piracy problem, because a bunch of the people who're showing up to get free Porsch 911 copies from your magic scanner definitely couldn't have afforded the real car, but it's difficult to tell who among them really couldn't have afforded it and so wouldn't have given him business in the first place, and who actually could buy your neighbor's Porsche 911 but chose instead to pick up your free illegal copy of it. So in his enforcement of his intellectual property rights, he has to treat every case as though it's basically "costing" him a sale, when in fact it might not be, but he can't know it.

I don't know why people think "analogies are called for" and then go on to offer blatantly false analogies. I think it might be because they don't really understand the applicable laws, but it also might be a simple problem of familiarity with logic and the difficulty of drawing a true analogy in the first place. Philosophers get in trouble with each other for analogies that fail at some crucial point, and those without any philosophical (argumentative) training are especially prone to putting forward (and falling for) false analogies that seem persuasive on the surface.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #34
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
I agree with everything you say except crack software being a worse offence. I can't see stealing music as something that is a lesser crime, because it can have the same impact and could also be seen as the thin end of the wedge. As for Scenario A/B - I guess it depends on whether you make your living from scenario B. In this case you will not have to worry about A at all. Personally I pay for software for selfish reasons. I really hope that what I use is still around with some updates in the next few years.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #35
Gear Addict
 
Monobasser's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Like most musicians in the circles I move in I used soley pirated software to make music until around the age of 25. From then onwards I had the funds to buy software gradually.. and now aged 33 I don't think I've had a bit of cracked software for about 5 years and have probably spent around 8000 dollars on software.. and been responsible for purchasing around 20,000 dollars worth of audio software in my day job.

I have no grand statement to make here but a lot of people here are going for a "you're either with us or against us" mentality. Fortunately life is a lot more interesting and diverse than that.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #36
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
All this EULA sh*t is stupid and pointless. You don't actually "own" software because THERE IS NOTHING TO ACTUALLY OWN. YOU CAN"T HOLD THE ONES AND ZEROS IN YOUR HAND. THE ONLY THING THAT IS A PHYSICAL OBJECT IS THE DELIVERY METHOD. YOU PAY FOR THE RIGHT TO USE THE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY THAT IS ON SAID DELIVERY METHOD. THAT IS ALL SOFTWARE AND MUSIC IS. NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS. And as far as the price goes you can charge whatever the hell you want and the market will decide if it is a good value. If I charge $10,000 and a hand job from your old lady for an mp3 I won't sell any, but guess what? That is the price and if you don't like it then p*ss the f*ck off! You don't have to buy it.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #37
Lives for gear
 
AdamJay's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
no need for an analogy.

the dude stole and got his ass handed to him on a cyber platter.


boo yah
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #38
Audio Alchemist
 
Lagerfeldt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by filin ➑️
Scenario A: You come home after a day at work/night out to find that your door is broken in, your possessions have all been rifled through, and some stuff is missing.

Scenario B: You go to someone elses studio and find a couple of things on their computer that they shouldn't have.


Sure, B is gonna make you angry, fists might fly, but I don't believe for a moment that it's going to have as much impact as A: Particularly if your home is also home to family.
You are entirely correct of course.

I was merely making a point, slightly jesting.

In scenario A I would probably not be prosecuted for attacking the thief unless I used excessive force (like poking his eyes out while holding him down).

In scenario B I would get a fine for attacking the thief. UNLESS I actually catch him in the act of pirating.

According to Danish (and probably US) law I can use physical force in order to prevent theft of or damage to my belongings. So I could certainly kick his ass if I caught him downloading or making a bootleg copy. "Is that a bit torrent I see on your screen?" WHAM!

Isn't this thread just getting more weird by the minute?
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #39
Gear Addict
 
Monobasser's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I have no real sympathy for the guy who has got in trouble here... but your macho talk is far more annoying
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #40
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agreed ➑️

This also has similar wrinkles analogous to the software piracy problem, because a bunch of the people who're showing up to get free Porsch 911 copies from your magic scanner definitely couldn't have afforded the real car, but it's difficult to tell who among them really couldn't have afforded it and so wouldn't have given him business in the first place, and who actually could buy your neighbor's Porsche 911 but chose instead to pick up your free illegal copy of it.

I don't know why people think "analogies are called for" and then go on to offer blatantly false analogies. .
And I don't know why you keep couching the argument in terms of what the damage is to the victim.

You take something that has a price on it. You don't pay the price. That is stealing.

Legal penalties may differ according to the severity, but the moral point is the same.


Instead of an analogy, I'll offer an old joke. A man asks a woman "would you sleep with me for a million dollars?" "Why, yes!" she answers. "How about sleeping with me for 5 bucks?" the guy asks. The woman is shocked, "What kind of woman do you think I am!" The man replies, "We've already established what kind of woman you are, now we're just haggling over the price."
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #41
Gear Maniac
 
Agreed's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeBasement ➑️
And I don't know why you keep couching the argument in terms of what the damage is to the victim.

You take something that has a price on it. You don't pay the price. That is stealing.

Legal penalties may differ according to the severity, but the moral point is the same.


Instead of an analogy, I'll offer an old joke. A man asks a woman "would you sleep with me for a million dollars?" "Why, yes!" she answers. "How about sleeping with me for 5 bucks?" the guy asks. The woman is shocked, "What kind of woman do you think I am!" The man replies, "We've already established what kind of woman you are, now we're just haggling over the price."

Funny joke

But the argument is couched in terms of damages to the victim because that is the legal ramification. I'm not arguing morals/ethics, I'm arguing law. Although I would add that law is derived from *some* moral framework, confused and contradictory though it may be.

False analogies are useless analogies. Everyone should be required at some point to take a basic logic course and an introductory course to philosophical reasoning. These are tools that are often misused and made blunt and which when blunted only work on people who have been similarly blunted. Just the facts, sir.

And at any rate, are you suggesting that under some system the damages to the victim don't matter? Do you advocate the same punishment for stealing a garden hose versus stealing one's life savings? After all, if we're not concerned about the damages to the victim... what exactly are we concerned about?
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #42
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt ➑️
"Is that a bit torrent I see on your screen?" WHAM!

We should start a vigilante group, super-hero costumes and everything
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #43
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMJAZZ ➑️
I just want to know when it became considered ok by the younger generation to download free music

It became "considered ok" when the technology became available, it's not a problem of kids today; kids of yesterday copied cassettes.
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #44
80425
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamJay ➑️
no need for an analogy.

the dude stole and got his ass handed to him on a cyber platter.


boo yah

end of story. entertaining read though, especially some of the comments that follow after the article!
Old 6th February 2009 | Show parent
  #45
Lives for gear
 
mac black's Avatar
 
4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Oh dear ... what a fool.

I think he should go to prison/ do some community work (preferably at Audio Damage, watch your hard drives boys !) just for being such a loud mouth.
Its pretty simple, you use something that belongs to someone else (whether its physical or software), pay for it !.

Or use shareware/free stuff.
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #46
Gear Maniac
 
Agreed's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yeah, I'd like to reiterate that the guy who did this is a complete tool and that I think software piracy is a source of damages, difficult to precisely determine but bad enough that no company should take it lightly. ESPECIALLY when someone with a reasonably high profile has admitted to software piracy, possibly encouraging others to do so as well. AD showed remarkable restraint, and I hope their scheme pays off. This guy needs the lesson and more importantly others who might be influenced to do the same need a reality check. It devalues all of our contributions to these companies to compensate them for their good work when someone comes along and steals it.

But the legal distinction is important, too, and I will continue to debate the nuances of that distinction with any who are interested
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #47
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
Kudos to Mr. Audio Damage, I didn't catch his name. Very classy.

A poster on the AD site made an amazing observation, that we're in an era that might be described as "post-ethical".

For example:

My music loving 18 year-old niece was sitting with me and my wife and watching music videos on TV. We were having a nice time. As we're, umm, "in the biz", we were especially interested in her response to different videos. She likes a lot of different music and was listing what she liked in a little notebook.

I asked her what she was going to do with the list, and she said that she would go home later and download the songs. Download? You mean from iTunes? No, she said, that would be too expensive. She'd get them for free elsewhere.

I almost lost it. I think she sensed it because she looked away. My wife reminded her that we're songwriters, just like Sheryl Crow and Toby Keith and Pink and Gwen Stefanie, and that downloading without paying is stealing. Would she steal our songs, too?

That's different she said. Really? How? To which she had no response, and a certain heaviness fell on the family gathering.

My nephew (different parents) offered us a DVD of a movie he'd just dowloaded. Same deal. The little ****ers won't admit they're stealing, and their parents don't say anything to them about it!

I think there may be something to the notion of us being on the "post-ethical" era!

To my niece's credit, she told me that she now pays for all of her music. I don't know if I believe her, but at least she seemed to have realized that what she was doing was not right.

Last edited by stratton; 7th February 2009 at 04:11 AM.. Reason: Spelling!
Old 7th February 2009 | Show parent
  #48
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agreed ➑️
Funny joke

But the argument is couched in terms of damages to the victim because that is the legal ramification. I'm not arguing morals/ethics, I'm arguing law. Although I would add that law is derived from *some* moral framework, confused and contradictory though it may be.


And at any rate, are you suggesting that under some system the damages to the victim don't matter?
Well, what I was trying to illustrate was that regardless of the level of 'harm' to the victim, the crime is the same - morally speaking, not legally. Software piracy, and any theft of intellectual property, is theft plain and simple.

I realize that the scope of damages would of course impact the severity of punishment. But my point (and the joke) was directed at those who like to parse the difference between copyright infringement and "stealing", as if somehow it's not "really" thievery to take someone else's ideas or creations, since nothing physical has been irrevocably taken. That is, as you say, a legal distinction. Which is why lawyers keep so busy. That's the complicated stuff. But the simple stuff is that morally it's all theft. Stealing. Taking what isn't yours from somebody else who would rather you'd pay for it.

Let the lawyers figure out the appropriate sentence. But I'm tired of the "it's not really stealing" arguments coz, well, they're just plain lame. heh
Old 7th February 2009
  #49
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
While this is my first post, I've been lurking and enjoying this forum for quite some time. So first off thanks to you all.

With that out of the way, there is no excuse for piracy. And yes I have downloaded umpteen mp3's and movies. What I have done is blatantly wrong. problem is I didn't realize it until I started bumping into friends of friends that happened to have a few of my songs that I made available via iTunes. Ouch that hurt. And it doesn't stop there. My kid brother decided that it really wasn't an issue to lend his pal my Reason discs and license. Propellerhead didn't like it and neither did I. It took me weeks to straighten that out. So while I can say that I hate the dongles, the 20 steps to register products and all the boxes in my closet, I'm a proud owner of all the technology I use. Karma is a bitch.

BTW thanks again for having me!

-f
Old 10th February 2009 | Show parent
  #50
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
I think people forget the joy that is actually purchasing items. I'd much rather buy an album in a store than d/l it for free. I pay money, I legally can have it so I have a clear conscience and best of all, I have something physical I can hold and look at. I don't think this whole digital thing does folks a lot of favors. Online, since there isn't that physical connection, I think people miss the severity of their actions. My generation started it (I'm 25) and it looks like the newer generations are really running with it. The worst part is that it hurts the artists and the developers who put so much of their time and financial backing towards it. What kills me is that folks just won't "get it" until some higher authorities come knocking on their door. Then the mood changes and when they get caught, that's when they really pay. I hear so many stories about people's futures ruined by this stuff, but online I guess people think they're invincible. Big brother is watching and with all the tracking techniques available these days, I can't understand how people can be so nonchalant about pirating.
Old 12th February 2009 | Show parent
  #51
Gear Nut
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
You are talking about the western world where the dealers and the stores can be found in hundreds. In the Middle East, the number of these stores are very limited. However the piracy is way worse than you can imagine. They don't just steal, they are selling them in thousands of GBs. They are competing on the sizes of the bundles. You can find everything between DAWs and libraries to tutorials and books.

They reached a point to not to ask the customer to buy a single software from X company. They tell you we have ALL products from X and ALL products from Y.

If they got stolen, I won't recognize who is the thief.

I was talking to one of my friends about the future of the keyboards and the virtual instruments software. We concluded that at some point we would see a sharp decrease in selling the keyboards because of the sounds libraries. However, I can tell that some companies might go back and use hardware. We all recall the experience of UAD and WAVE experience. Although UAD consumes space by using the PCI-e card, however they are more protected than WAVE.
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