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Moving folders around in Windows XP
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #61
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TacosWhenTwisted ➑️
Thanks for proving music people usually dont have a good sense of humor, as have many others proved in this thread. Stick to music man =). Im surprised i'm the only one that has come accross this finding. They should make a Wiki about me, the man who found out mp3's and .wavs lose quality over time if stored on a hard drive. I'm not going to debate this any furthur, but just ask for people to just observe their files and the quality of them, all digital audio files decline over time.

/contribution to my own thread that evolved into something that it wasn't meant to be about.

If you are serious: You are an idiot

If you are joking: You are a worse comedian than Dane Cook.


Please leave the internet
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #62
Gear Guru
 
Ethan Winer's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Lightbulb

I love this thread. It's my daily laugh. Carry on.
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #63
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theblue1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
Please tell me he's joking.
I can't tell any more.

I thought he was joking. But I looked at his prior posts and they're more or less straightforward. He's a dance producer, so he's apparently not coming from the same studio recording background as many of us.

But he also claims to have been using a computer for over a decade.


It's really hard to say.

Either he's joking or he's got a thought disorder. That's my current thinking.

Since one of his last statements was that "music people usually dont have a good sense of humor" maybe it's the former.

If that's the case, let me just say to Tacos:

Dude -- if you're faking your nutty take on "file degradation," thinking that it's SO outrageous no one would think you're serious, you have staked a position at the far edge of outrageousness, to be sure, but, sadly, there are those who appear to sincerely hold some truly crackpot beliefs. At least until they're straightened out.

It may have escaped your attention, but one of the primary activities in forums like this is members helping to inform other members.

Many people here at GS have decades of experience with studio recording and even with computers. (As I noted, I've been using computers daily for about a quarter century, and, in fact, I develop desktop and web applications. My studio experience goes back a few years before that.)

But many others are pretty green behind the ears and many of us take extra time and effort to try to help them understand some of the often complex and sometimes perplexing issues involved.

When someone like you wastes that time, trolling for outraged responses to patently absurd statements like you've made, it simultaneously frustrates and annoys people.

So, TacosWhenTwisted, next time you have a real question about recording, don't be surprised if some of the folks with long memories give it back to you in spades, spewing nonsense they feel is as absurd as the time-wasting BS you're laying down here.
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #64
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by filin ➑️
If you are serious: You are an idiot

If you are joking: You are a worse comedian than Dane Cook.


Please leave the internet
Hey.. I like Dane Cook.. and I love you guys!!
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #65
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drmmrboy's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➑️
But he also claims to have been using a computer for over a decade.
So has my mom, but she still has trouble sending email.
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #66
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timbreman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TacosWhenTwisted ➑️
I'm not going to debate this any furthur, but just ask for people to just observe their files and the quality of them, all digital audio files decline over time.

/contribution to my own thread that evolved into something that it wasn't meant to be about.
Aww c'mon dont stop now! This is getting really good. I want to hear more of the knowledge you have that nobody else knows about.
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #67
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theblue1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by drmmrboy ➑️
So has my mom, but she still has trouble sending email.
Duly noted.

And when your mom comes on board here and seems confused about some computer or recording minutiae, I'll definitely cut her some slack.

heh


The problem is not folks who are a little hazy on the facts -- we all are at times in different situations.

The problem is those who ask for info and then reject it when it's offered, who then proceed to argue absurd contentions with no factual or logical support, and then go so far as to insult those who are simply trying to help them...


Somehow, I doubt that profile fits your mom... but it does appear to fit TacosWhenTwisted. Whether he's serious or not.



PS... I know you cited your mom only to prove someone can use a computer for a decade and still be hazy... so I know you're on the side of truth and justice, here. heh Only used your post as a jumping off place...
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #68
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Jovas's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Interesting, i wonder why people put so much time and attention into this topic.. For me its pretty clear, its hilarious, i love the typical American styled humor which comes around here haha. Only the name; TacosWhenTwisted lmao heh
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #69
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➑️
He's a dance producer, so he's apparently not coming from the same studio recording background as many of us.
I primarily have a dance production background also; it's not an excuse for moronics. If anything you'd expect someone who spends more time with synths and sequencers than mics and amps to know MORE about the digital side of music production.


Quote:
Originally Posted by drmmrboy ➑️
Hey.. I like Dane Cook.
Sorry for your loss
Old 31st January 2009 | Show parent
  #70
Gear Guru
 
theblue1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by filin ➑️
I primarily have a dance production background also; it's not an excuse for moronics. If anything you'd expect someone who spends more time with synths and sequencers than mics and amps to know MORE about the digital side of music production.

[...]
Oh, you bet. I've done my share of dance and electronica, as well. Ten years ago, I was pretty deep in it, barely touched a guitar while recording for a couple years. And I met plenty of very knowledgeable types in the ranks of the club music folks.

I was just trying to cut the guy a little extra slack and contextualize the 'sincere mistake' scenario. Needless to say, my patience started running a little thin as time wore on... heh


PS... TacosWhenTwisted IS a great screen name.
Old 1st February 2009 | Show parent
  #71
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➑️


PS... TacosWhenTwisted IS a great screen name.

That is true.
Old 1st February 2009 | Show parent
  #72
Gear Nut
 
🎧 15 years
Greatest thread on GS ever - regardless of whether the OP was trolling or not.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #73
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alexp's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TacosWhenTwisted ➑️
I dont get why you guys are making such a big deal of this lol.

There is definately a loss in quality when copying a file from one place to another place.

Here is a test you can run. Take an MP3. Drag the MP3 around from folder to folder and hard drive to hard drive, do it like 10 times. And then turn both the original untouched version of the source MP3, and the MP3 you dragged around into .wav file and view them closely within a .wav editor and let me know what you see. Pictures are the same, if copied and duplicated and moved around in folders they loose some of their image quality. No im not going to sit here debate this with some of you tech nerds, this just my observation from using a computer for the past 10+ years. But I guess you learned something new today from a non techy =)
LMFAO!!


Dude... Tell me this is a joke? Please? ahahahahahahahah OMG I cant stop laughing at this..... HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

BEST THREAD ON GS EVER!!!!!!

alexP
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #74
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David-Morpheus's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
ROFL heh

I have noticed the more I am visiting gearslutz the website's colors are fading away. I think the they are getting lost in the internet cabling.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #75
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Saudade's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TacosWhenTwisted ➑️
Thanks for the laugh guys, I didn't expect some of the replies in this thread. I think it was aided by the fact that I know for a fact that when an MP3 or .Wav file is used repeatedly it loses some of its quality over time. Actually over time sitting on a hard drive it probably loses quality even if its not being used.

You're welcome Whatever makes you happy man, it's your life and you're entitled to your version of reality as anyone is.
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #76
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by morpheuzrecords ➑️
ROFL heh

I have noticed the more I am visiting gearslutz the website's colors are fading away. I think the they are getting lost in the internet cabling.
When I get a great idea, the more I think about it, the stupider it gets...

... do you suppose this is like that?



heh
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #77
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Hahaha! It's great to finally find somebody even less computer savvy than me!

Quote:
You're welcome Whatever makes you happy man, it's your life and you're entitled to your version of reality as anyone is.
lol....
Old 3rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #78
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MikeTSH's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Can someone please change his username to "MyPostsAreJokes"? Honest to God, this poor OP seems to have no knowledge of how the lovely 0's and 1's of the binary world seem to work. No joke, this will possibly the funniest thing I'll see the whole of 2009.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #79
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
You slutz amaze me. Can't you see Taco Karma > Slut Dogma?

I mean, they laughed at Copernicus, too...and look how that turned out!

If you look closely, really closely (we're talking sub-atomic level here), there could very well be some random changes occurring...not unlike the genetic changes which are the fuel of evolution.

This quantum bit-shifting could very well explain why some recordings just seem to have that "magic" quality to them. All this time we've assumed great recordings were the result of great performances, proper levels, sound mic technique and so on; but, thanks to TWiT, we now know it's simply random bit re-shuffling due to excessive copying.

This could be big, very big.
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #80
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Matti's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
As if the conclution is: - the more it sells / gets copied the better it gets...

Matti
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #81
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Jovas's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTruffleKing ➑️
You slutz amaze me. Can't you see Taco Karma > Slut Dogma?

I mean, they laughed at Copernicus, too...and look how that turned out!

If you look closely, really closely (we're talking sub-atomic level here), there could very well be some random changes occurring...not unlike the genetic changes which are the fuel of evolution.

This quantum bit-shifting could very well explain why some recordings just seem to have that "magic" quality to them. All this time we've assumed great recordings were the result of great performances, proper levels, sound mic technique and so on; but, thanks to TWiT, we now know it's simply random bit re-shuffling due to excessive copying.

This could be big, very big.
We've got another nick winner here! TheTruffleKing, lmao! Would this be an alias of TWT'sted? I'm getting suspicious here haha heh
Old 4th February 2009 | Show parent
  #82
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esaias's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hey dude, I got these old Winchester Drives here, these babies make your wav's and MP3's sound sweet and warm.

I also have this SCSI tape deck, it uses 1" tape and is really sweet piece of machinery, all you need a suitable controller and all this tape sweetness could be yours!
Pulled out from a working VAX/VMS system.

-Tomi
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #83
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Keep it up guys! I didn't expect to have to come back to this thread.

haha...Im just amazed that im first to make this finding. Awesome.


Digital media files lose their quality once a copy is made or a file is moved from one place on the storage device to another. 10+ years of PC use experience pays off, but im no MIT guy to write a detailed pamphlet about this finding. By the way i love Windows, so I don't get why you some of you nerds are getting fussy about my observation. I entered the Matrix and dudes in sunglasses and black suits are after me on gearslutz lol.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #84
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theblue1's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
I don't know about you guys but I just want to hug this guy.



You're alright, Tacos.

But my growing affection for you really makes me want to get you straightened out on that ones and zeros thang. heh



BTW, just so every t is dotted and i crossed -- I think most all of us would agree that hard drives can develop problems, bad sectors where data can't be reliably stored, and which the disk operating system will typically try to mark bad and work around them. And growing mechanical problems with a disc can cause a syndrome that some people call drive rot -- because more and more of the disk becomes unusable -- or the errors mount faster than can be repaired/recovered. But in those cases, modern OS's like the Mac OS and Windows and DOS before it, fail the drive read -- precisely because the file is corrupted. (You can try to recover a corrupted file using specialized software or bit-wise editors.)

Could a file become corrupted without 'setting off alarms?' Anything is possible, at some level. But our modern OS's are extremely dependable when it comes to data integrity. (Security is a whole 'nother thing, unfortunately.)

If your properly installed and functioning computer OS says it moved or copied a file successfully, you can bet very good money that every single 1 and 0 is in place. And if a single 1 or 0 gets out of place during an operation, that operation will fail with an error message and the original data retained (barring the mechanical failure of the hard drive or other storage media).

That said, I also subscribe to the idea that, to really be considered properly archived, data has to exist in at least three separate copies in three physical locations -- and be checked regularly. But that's about media failure and human error or misfeasance (ie, purging archives improperly, a huge problem). There are a lot of things a wary computer user has to worry about. But degradation from copying or playing media files is not one of them.
Old 5th February 2009
  #85
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JoeyM's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by TacosWhenTwisted ➑️
Is it possible to move a folder to another folder without physically copying and pasting the folder. I want to move some samples from one hard drive to another hard drive but i dont want to copy and paste because there is some loss in quality during that transition, so i was wondering if there is something I can type in the folders properties to change its location, or is this only possible if its within the same hard drive?
Shouldn't the quality increase every time you copy? heh Okay, now that I've hazed you like everyone else did...

TWT if you're really serious about losing quality then I can only think of one of two things:

1. You're copying samples while they are still loaded in the sampler. If so, don't do that! Close the apps and then copy.
2. You may have some virus or spyware. Spybot S & D and Avast! Antivirus are two free ways of making sure.
3. Tip: Go up to Folder Options (XP) in Control Panel and up to the View tab. Check "Show Hidden files and folders". In the past, not all files could be guranteed to copy nor be recognised by host apps.

Or, if you really have been on computers for 10 years, you may be remembering the warnings from 1999 era about some storage mediums losing their bits.

You should list your system configuration because there may be some problem with compatibility. Older motherboards with the 686b Southbridge on the motherboard used to have corruption problems.

All is well
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #86
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 ➑️
I don't know about you guys but I just want to hug this guy.

You're alright, Tacos.

But my growing affection for you really makes me want to get you straightened out on that ones and zeros thang. heh
theblue1: you are just another crappy part of analog gear, man! So am I.

TacosWhenTwisted: Welcome back!

<serious computer nerd mode>
Actually copying increases (or better, preserves) the quality of the files, but not in an audible way. The copy (but you will have to make sure you really make a physical copy) will cause the magnetism of the part of the disk where the copy is stored refreshed, while magnetism degrades over the years in those sectors that never get overwritten. So if you want to preserve your most precious files, copy them every once a while.
</serious computer nerd mode>

What degrades the quality is the playback of the files. I am currently running a test here. But I have to reboot every time I listen in order to make sure the file is read from the disk each time and not cached by the operating system, which will prevent reading the disk each time. So it will take a while until I come up with a file that is audibly degraded. Anyway, this will be a result of repeated playback, not of copying.

Stay tuned, guyz!
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #87
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timbreman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by waltermusik ➑️
theblue1: you are just another crappy part of analog gear, man! So am I.

TacosWhenTwisted: Welcome back!

<serious computer nerd mode>
Actually copying increases (or better, preserves) the quality of the files, but not in an audible way. The copy (but you will have to make sure you really make a physical copy) will cause the magnetism of the part of the disk where the copy is stored refreshed, while magnetism degrades over the years in those sectors that never get overwritten. So if you want to preserve your most precious files, copy them every once a while.
</serious computer nerd mode>

What degrades the quality is the playback of the files. I am currently running a test here. But I have to reboot every time I listen in order to make sure the file is read from the disk each time and not cached by the operating system, which will prevent reading the disk each time. So it will take a while until I come up with a file that is audibly degraded. Anyway, this will be a result of repeated playback, not of copying.

Stay tuned, guyz!
lol...love the open and close tags you used for your nerd mode. That was funny.

OK but on a more serious note I ran this by a buddy of mine who truly is a guru and he had some interesting things to say....after of course laughing about it.

Ok so he kinda surprised me at first by saying that to a small degree Tacos is correct that when a wav file is copied it is slightly changed in some situations. But not changed in the way you might be thinking.

I am hoping I can explain this properly as it's easy to get lost in his explanations once he gets goin with them.

First off this part is common info you can find anywhere:
When you delete a file on your hard drive you arent really deleting it you are just telling the system you are reserving that space to be overwritten so thus the data is still technically there. Actually that in itself is how file recovery programs work.

With that being said there are things I believe called headers inside of wave files that have specific information in them but there are many times when alot of the information is simply reserved space with a string of 0's from what I understand.

Now when you copy a wav file to another location on your hard drive that already has data there waiting to be overwritten sometimes that pre-existing data can actually change some of that filler info in the header of the wave file from a string of 0's to maybe include a few 1's here and there...etc. Not sure why windows would have an allowance for that but apparently it is possible.

HOWEVER he absolutely assured me that this in no way affects the actual audio data in any way shape or form. ONLY the header reserved space would be affected and that in itself would be rare. The important header info is not changed just the reserved space in the header. In other words the important data would never get changed and the file should be a carbon copy....atleast from the users standpoint.

As far as the above post about increasing quality from copying....well I am not sure I quite follow the logic but then again I am by no means a guru. I've been using computers for roughtly 15 years and the depth of my programming skills are limited to HTML, CSS and a bit of Javascript. I do know hardware and how things work for the most part but even with the years of experience that I have I would not even consider myself qualified to say I know the deep inner workings of computers to the degree that I would really like to know them.

If my explanation was slightly off in some way I do apologize as I am only reiterating what I contemplated and remembered from the conversation with my friend about this post a few days ago.

Btw on the cache thing I think if you delete all online and offline temp files your system wont resort to playing what you're referring to. It's all stored in the temp files. I had an issue like that when trying to upload a variation of a song to fileden with the same name but when I would play it back from fileden it was as if I uploaded the old version.

Turned out windows doesnt do things like that. If it recognizes the same file name it tries to play it back from the temp files which actually had the originally named file. This is from what I understand anyway.

And to Tacos....I agree that if you are indeed hearing or seeing degradation then I agree with the above posts that you should run some disk checks for bad sectors. Also run a ram check, anti virus, anti spyware, etc, etc. The thing though is even if you had any hardware issues I would have thought you would have gotten a CRC (Cyclic Reduncy Check) error so I am just not sure what you are experiencing over there. And please dont sit there and say it's degrading your audio when you admit yourself you are doing conversions from wav to mp3 or vice versa....OF COURSE there is going to be a change if you do that regardless of how many times you've copied the file.


Peace.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #88
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🎧 15 years
header files can be inspected by hex or file dump software.
as far as i understand, the header files are created by the pro daw software.
cos the pro audio software uses low level windows api's. (application programmer interfaces.).

from what i saw of the MS developer docs a few years back anyway.

but i dont program daw software. in the past purely industrial/govt/finance systems.
mebe a daw software developer can comment on this.
if i remember also the header files contain the sampling rate n bit depth etc.

as to a sound file sounding better or worse over time.
if the bit pattern on disc became degraded somehow prolly it would result in a faulty file.
unreadable. REMEMBER...SOUND FILES ARE READ INTO MAIN MEMORY FOR PLAYBACK.
they are just bit patterns of 1's n 0's. representing individual sample values.

lets look at what daw software does. in practice.
crudely, and in summary...to playback a mix it reads time slices of traks from disc into main pc memory ,
and then by math summing creates the stereo mix to be pumped out to the user via soundcard out. whatever sound device the user has selected for playback.

now follow this next bit o' logic argument carefully.
THERE ARE VARIOUS WAYS TO PLAY BACK A SONG.
1. in the pro audio software itself.
2. playing back a mix (wav or mp3) in windows itself useing for example win media player.
3. a third party created media player.

given the above one way i can explain that a user might hear quality differences is the following scenario.
lets take a user with a laptop and a desktop for example.
the desktop has a high quality pro ADA sound device playing back the mixed song.
the laptop doesnt. its useing on board sound to playback the mix.
(i'm not gonna touch on quality rate settings in mp3's etc...lets assume wav file playback.)
and the laptop uses the standard win media player for playback with on board sound.
on board sound of course doesnt have the DA quality of the pro interface on the desktop.

there are other subtleties TOO.
for example the daw software itself might have some funky logic to manipulate a stereo mix
in main memory to enhance it, before pumping out to the sound device...
removing low level artifacts n noise etc useing clever dsp programming routines.
its technically possible, and in a competitive daw market ive often wondered
if any daw developers are doing this.
which might account for why some people stridently claim they hear differences tween
various daw software. but one cant prove without access to source code.
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #89
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Timbreman,

I'll stay serious for the entirity of THIS post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by timbreman ➑️
When you delete a file on your hard drive you arent really deleting it you are just telling the system you are reserving that space to be overwritten so thus the data is still technically there. Actually that in itself is how file recovery programs work.
Up to here, 100% agreed.

Quote:
With that being said there are things I believe called headers inside of wave files that have specific information in them but there are many times when alot of the information is simply reserved space with a string of 0's from what I understand.
Agreed as well. At the beginning of each .WAV file (as a matter of fact, of every file that is used cross-platform, such as HTML, PDF, mp3, PostScript; with the exception of raw files, such as a-Law Audio or plain text), there is a section describing the file type and some characteristics, like sample rate, number of channels, number encoding (int versus float), and more. Since WAV allows for a great variety of sub-types, much of the space in this section is not used and will be set to 0 by serious programs (it does not matter really which values are in there, as long as it is indicated in the right place that the values may be ignored).

Quote:
Now when you copy a wav file to another location on your hard drive that already has data there waiting to be overwritten sometimes that pre-existing data can actually change some of that filler info in the header of the wave file from a string of 0's to maybe include a few 1's here and there...etc. Not sure why windows would have an allowance for that but apparently it is possible.
Disagreed. On magnetic media, such as hard disks or tape, each area representing a bit is explicitly magnetized to mean 0 or 1, ignoring its previous state. So if you have a 1 at a position and the file you place there has a 0 in the same position, the place on the disk will be re-magnetized to mean 0.
With optical (CD-RW) and EEPROM media (USB sticks, CF/SD cards, ...), this is different. Each bit has an initial state there (let's say 0 for simplicity's sake) and if you copy a 0 over it, nothing will be done. If you overwrite a 0 by a 1, you can do this, but you can not "change" from 1 to 0 by a similar physical process; rather, you will have to re-initialize the bit (*). So, on these media, whole blocks are first re-initialized (all bits set to 0; on a CDRW typically the whole media gets initialized before re-writing) in a first step and then all bits set that shall be 1 and the 0s left untouched.

In both cases, either each bit gets copied correctly, or otherwise the media is out of order and your file will be corrupt.

(*) this is a bit like charging a battery. When you want a battery to represent "Full", you can charge it (or leave it if it is already full). If you want it to represent "Empty", you can not charge it to the value empty; you'll have to discharge it. For simplicity, they "discharge" all batteries before they decide which to re-charge.

Quote:
HOWEVER he absolutely assured me that this in no way affects the actual audio data in any way shape or form. ONLY the header reserved space would be affected and that in itself would be rare. The important header info is not changed just the reserved space in the header. In other words the important data would never get changed and the file should be a carbon copy....atleast from the users standpoint.
Also disagreed. The operating system does not know where the information section ends and the "real" data start. And, in the real data, there are tons of 0s as well that might be written to a place that previously hosted a "1". Either, the resetting of the bit works fine, or else your file will be corrupt.

Quote:
As far as the above post about increasing quality from copying....well I am not sure I quite follow the logic
Okay, let me give you a picture that is inaccurate but might help explain. Consider 0 means white and 1 means black. Each bit be represented by the polarization of 10 magnetic particles. Now by electro magnetic distrubances, 2 particles "forget" their polarization, so you end up with some "grey" bit. But as long as the grey is reasonably bright or dark, whoever copies it, will detect it as 0 or 1 and thus will polarize all 10 magnetic particles at the target position accordingly. So the copy will consist of pure white and black to start with and thus be "fresher" than the original (even though, digitally speaking, they are 100% the same and thus would also sound 100% identical if they are audio files).

Quote:
Btw on the cache thing I think if you delete all online and offline temp files your system wont resort to playing what you're referring to. It's all stored in the temp files.
Windows (and other OSes) can be configured in a way that frequently read files, such as an mp3 played back over and over, are copied to the main memory to reduce disk access. This is different from temp files, which exist as well.

Sorry for not being funny this time.

Thomas
Old 5th February 2009 | Show parent
  #90
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timbreman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1 ➑️
header files can be inspected by hex or file dump software.
as far as i understand, the header files are created by the pro daw software.
cos the pro audio software uses low level windows api's. (application programmer interfaces.).

from what i saw of the MS developer docs a few years back anyway.

but i dont program daw software. in the past purely industrial/govt/finance systems.
mebe a daw software developer can comment on this.
if i remember also the header files contain the sampling rate n bit depth etc.

as to a sound file sounding better or worse over time.
if the bit pattern on disc became degraded somehow prolly it would result in a faulty file.
unreadable. REMEMBER...SOUND FILES ARE READ INTO MAIN MEMORY FOR PLAYBACK.
they are just bit patterns of 1's n 0's. representing individual sample values.

lets look at what daw software does. in practice.
crudely, and in summary...to playback a mix it reads time slices of traks from disc into main pc memory ,
and then by math summing creates the stereo mix to be pumped out to the user via soundcard out. whatever sound device the user has selected for playback.

now follow this next bit o' logic argument carefully.
THERE ARE VARIOUS WAYS TO PLAY BACK A SONG.
1. in the pro audio software itself.
2. playing back a mix (wav or mp3) in windows itself useing for example win media player.
3. a third party created media player.

given the above one way i can explain that a user might hear quality differences is the following scenario.
lets take a user with a laptop and a desktop for example.
the desktop has a high quality pro ADA sound device playing back the mixed song.
the laptop doesnt. its useing on board sound to playback the mix.
(i'm not gonna touch on quality rate settings in mp3's etc...lets assume wav file playback.)
and the laptop uses the standard win media player for playback with on board sound.
on board sound of course doesnt have the DA quality of the pro interface on the desktop.

there are other subtleties TOO.
for example the daw software itself might have some funky logic to manipulate a stereo mix
in main memory to enhance it, before pumping out to the sound device...
removing low level artifacts n noise etc useing clever dsp programming routines.
its technically possible, and in a competitive daw market ive often wondered
if any daw developers are doing this.
which might account for why some people stridently claim they hear differences tween
various daw software. but one cant prove without access to source code.
Yes that is correct. Bit depth and sample rate are 2 important pieces of data saved in the header. As far as I know though you could use any audio app with the ability to record to record a wav (Pro Daw or not) and it should still save header info. It would most likely use a default that the OS assigns to it however. Not entirely sure though.

From what I understand though there is reserved space in headers that usually arent used for anything except filling in the blanks so to speak. That was the particular portion of the header I was referring to. Nothing significant like the bit depth or sample rate portion of the header would be affected.

And yes the file would be pushed from the hd into memory and played from the main memory. The cyclic reduncy check I suppose would only be applicable when copying a file as the OP was claiming was what caused the degradation.

I am not sure if windows has a check to verify validity of what is playing from main memory but I kinda doubt it. So I suppose if the OP has bad memory he might be getting some strange artifacts. More likely a memory issue than a bad sector on the hard drive issue.

Most likely just misconceptions from the OP on how things are working. Playing thru different daws or players and hearing a difference and especially converting the files to a different format. Other than that I am at a loss as to what an issue like that could stem from. I am of course under the assumption the OP isnt transferring files to a completely different computer and playing the audio back using a different audio or sound card. That would be a bit too obvious.
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