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Superior Drummer & best e-drum controller?
Old 21st January 2009
  #1
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Roger Starr's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Superior Drummer & best e-drum controller?

Hi there,

I have Superior Drummer which I think sounds really good btw, and since I am a drummer I'm thinking of simply getting a good e-drum. What brand and model would be best to be able to drum as accoustical as possible? Important for me is especially the behouviar of the hi-hat and in general the dynamics and sound differences of the snare drum including rim shots etc. Is this Roland or Hart Dynamics (this latest I saw mostly with Roland modules, don't know why)? What module is at least best for this?

Regards,

Roger
Old 21st January 2009
  #2
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Goliath|Audio's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The Rolands absolutely kill Yamaha (I own one), Hart (played them), Simmons and Alesis.
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #3
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Roger Starr's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Roland OK. Which model? Also, what about Hart compared?

Regards,

Roger
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #4
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RET Drums

Roland V drums def smokes the yamaha stuff IMO
Old 21st January 2009 | Show parent
  #5
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feck's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
The Roland TD9sx is the best I have found, price-wise and features-wise. I got mine new for $1300 or so, and they have the black rubber cymbals and hat, and the mesh snare and toms (3 of them), are compact and trigger unbelievably well with Superior. In fact, I do almost all of my playing/programming with Superior due to its great V-drum performance.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #6
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Roger Starr's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanx. Roland sounds good. RET, looks cool, never heard off, is it good?

Regards,

Roger
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #7
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kgdrum_nyc's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
i have the roland td 20 with the pro pad setup w/ rubber cymbals and hh, it's very good.
I have not spent too much time trying to trigger S2 w/ it.
are most people tracking w/ Vdrums and than triggering S2 later?
I have never really gotten S2 to feel right actually playing ,if anyone has some good suggestions.



I think the harts are very good,
I have had alessis and simmons kits they are not in the same league.d druml(i also had) not very popular but very good as well.
I think most of it is just getting used to the feel of the pads.I always prefer e drums that have trigger inputs as they always seem faster more responsive than anything that utilizes midi based triggers.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #8
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Roger Starr's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanx for the replies. Is Hart better then Roland? Also, I tried one of the Rolands in a store, I think it was the TD9. It sounded more or less, Superior sounds much better I think. What I didn't like was playing the hi-hat of Roland, I completely missed the subte differences in sound in how touching the rubber cymbal as well the way the foot pedal interacted with the delivered sound. Way too abrupt sound changes. I don't know, but I suppose Superior will do much better on this? I think I saw some video's of some hot shot drummers on NAMM or so playing Hart hardware with a Roland module on software drums, which did gave me the impression the hi-hat behaving very natural? For me this is important, if it is not posible I rather record an accoustic hi hat or simply use some simple pads to play on.

Regards,

Roger
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #9
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Virtuoso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I've got an expanded TD-12 which I tried to use with Superior 2. The response felt very different to playing the onboard sounds (especially the hi-hats) and I couldn't really work out how to improve it. For some reason it seems to respond better under Toontrack Solo than under Cubase or Logic, but I have no idea why that would be?

It would be great if Toontrack would make some plug-and-play templates for popular eDrum kits that just set everything up for you.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #10
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Roger Starr's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virtuoso ➑️
I've got an expanded TD-12 which I tried to use with Superior 2. The response felt very different to playing the onboard sounds (especially the hi-hats) and I couldn't really work out how to improve it. For some reason it seems to respond better under Toontrack Solo than under Cubase or Logic, but I have no idea why that would be?

It would be great if Toontrack would make some plug-and-play templates for popular eDrum kits that just set everything up for you.
Hmmm, good to know. Very different respons, in what sense?

Regards,

Roger
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #11
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Virtuoso's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Starr ➑️
Very different respons, in what sense?
The velocity curve feels strange on S2 so there isn't as much variation as there ought to be going from delicate hits to powerful ones. The hi-hat response is screwed - I'm getting either an open sound or a closed sound with no stages in-between, an unnatural close and no splash sound. Positional sensing doesn't seem to work.

These are probably all things I could resolve if I sat down with the manual and spent a couple of days reprogramming it, but I haven't the time, the patience or the experience of eDrum programming. It would be very helpful if Toontrack would do the hard work on behalf of their users and release an update so we don't have to sit here scratching our heads over remapping CC numbers.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #12
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chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Toontrack have been using a TD20 brain and Hart pads a lot.
So I would they think they regard that set up as the best.
If a combination is too hard to organise I would think the TD20 would be fine.
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #13
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s_sibs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
It would be very helpful if Toontrack would do the hard work on behalf of their users and release an update so we don't have to sit here scratching our heads over remapping CC numbers.
Check out this thread over at the Toontrack forum. See if the preset that Rogue provided helps you out any.

Last edited by s_sibs; 22nd January 2009 at 10:55 PM.. Reason: Forgot link...doh!
Old 22nd January 2009 | Show parent
  #14
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kittonian's Avatar
I've been triggering Superior 2.0 with a Roland TD20 and a Hart Pro 6.4 kit. Drummers have been nervous at first but then they sit down and can't believe how real everything feels. It's quite impressive.
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #15
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Roger Starr's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by kittonian ➑️
I've been triggering Superior 2.0 with a Roland TD20 and a Hart Pro 6.4 kit. Drummers have been nervous at first but then they sit down and can't believe how real everything feels. It's quite impressive.
This sounds good and exactly what I'm looking for (maybe they use the Hart hardware because it simply looks so much cooler then the Roland hardware?). Now gonna check the Toontrack thread. They should have good solid presets for exactly that type of need using Cubase or Logic or whatever. In case they don't, it is for me a reason to use simply the keyboard and some simple pad thing and hoping they get that in an update, what seems to me an essential part of the software actually...

Regards,

Roger
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #16
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chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Starr ➑️
seems to me an essential part of the software actually...
I think the fact is everyone plays differently and needs different velocity curves and sensitivities. I don't think it's something a third party can provide.
It'll take time to tweak the response of e-drums and drum software to your liking, but in the end it will be worth it.
Old 23rd January 2009 | Show parent
  #17
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kgdrum_nyc's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➑️
I think the fact is everyone plays differently and needs different velocity curves and sensitivities. I don't think it's something a third party can provide.
It'll take time to tweak the response of e-drums and drum software to your liking, but in the end it will be worth it.

+1 totally agree(it's all about touch)1 size can't fit all.



yes basic settings to get started would make things a bit easier. but there are way too many variables, in the way different drummers play to have 1 setting.

the beauty of getting any e-drum setup's velocity curves,sensitivity and(for me)taking off most of the effects/compression(to my own satisfaction)is what makes any e drum set way more enjoyable to play,and it will also feel way more REAL.
Old 24th January 2009 | Show parent
  #18
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Roger Starr's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➑️
I think the fact is everyone plays differently and needs different velocity curves and sensitivities. I don't think it's something a third party can provide.
It'll take time to tweak the response of e-drums and drum software to your liking, but in the end it will be worth it.
I don't see it like that. Why? Because with Superior Drummer you try to get as close to a very well recorded accoustic set as posible and so you need to have the option to play with an E-Drum as realistic as posible. It's all about in a digital way appraoching the real thing as much as posible...

Regards,

Roger
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #19
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chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Starr ➑️
I don't see it like that. Why? Because with Superior Drummer you try to get as close to a very well recorded accoustic set as posible and so you need to have the option to play with an E-Drum as realistic as posible. It's all about in a digital way appraoching the real thing as much as posible...
And Superior has offered the most realistic recordings possible.
How you play them back is another matter. Everyone has a different feel and companies like Toontrack can't provide a template to suit the nuances of a million different users.
It's up to you to tweak the e-kit to suit your own feel and needs.
The sounds are all in there, and as Toontrack don't sell e-drums, I don't think it's up to them to make the pads work perfectly first time for every user.
Also, as you are asking about the best e-kit to buy and haven't a lot of experience triggering Superior 2 from Roland or Hart kits, it seems a bit much to criticise Toontrack over their e-kit set ups. Why not see if you have a problem first?
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Starr ➑️
I don't see it like that. Why? Because with Superior Drummer you try to get as close to a very well recorded accoustic set as posible and so you need to have the option to play with an E-Drum as realistic as posible. It's all about in a digital way appraoching the real thing as much as posible...

Regards,

Roger
I'm using the Roland TD-8 kit with Superior Custom & Vintage & I can tell you it worked great out of the box with no tweaking.

After I played a while I tweaked some settings on the Roland brain & the program but it was really about preference, and i have not touched them since.

Mabe you could find someone with a similar setup & see if it works for you.
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #21
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s_sibs's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➑️
And Superior has offered the most realistic recordings possible.
How you play them back is another matter. Everyone has a different feel and companies like Toontrack can't provide a template to suit the nuances of a million different users.
It's up to you to tweak the e-kit to suit your own feel and needs.
The sounds are all in there, and as Toontrack don't sell e-drums, I don't think it's up to them to make the pads work perfectly first time for every user.
Also, as you are asking about the best e-kit to buy and haven't a lot of experience triggering Superior 2 from Roland or Hart kits, it seems a bit much to criticise Toontrack over their e-kit set ups. Why not see if you have a problem first?
And let me add to what Chris said.

Any drummer sitting down to a real acoustic drumset is going to set it up to work the best for him. He's going to adjust the kick pedal tension, the hi-hat stand and hi hat pedal for his personal preference. He's going to tune things to his liking and so on to get the kit to work for the way he plays.

Why would an e-drum player expect anything different?
Old 25th January 2009 | Show parent
  #22
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Roger Starr's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➑️
And Superior has offered the most realistic recordings possible.
How you play them back is another matter. Everyone has a different feel and companies like Toontrack can't provide a template to suit the nuances of a million different users.
It's up to you to tweak the e-kit to suit your own feel and needs.
The sounds are all in there, and as Toontrack don't sell e-drums, I don't think it's up to them to make the pads work perfectly first time for every user.
Also, as you are asking about the best e-kit to buy and haven't a lot of experience triggering Superior 2 from Roland or Hart kits, it seems a bit much to criticise Toontrack over their e-kit set ups. Why not see if you have a problem first?
OK clear. The critisism is just based upon some reaction here above, so in a certain way you are right on this of course. Still I don't agree with the tweaking aspect, any accoustic drums, wheater it is tuned in your 'taste' or not, will have always a lot of nuances in sound, it is accoustic in the end. How you tune your snare etc. is compared to software rather a choice of the right snare brand and tuning in the presets. How that choosen snare sounds in the middle towards the ring and that in combination with the type of sticks and the velocity of touch is what the player does. A great sampled software drum can do this, which I believe Toontrack probably has made (sounds good to me so far) and so it is justified to ask here which trigger system responds best to that need, which again, is as standard for all drummers from a accoustical point of view. Last thing I can say is, if there where here shops which have ToonTrack or BFD or whatever fully configured with Hart and/or Roland I wouldn't ask this here because then I could simply sit 1 minute behind the kit and know right away if it is doing what I expect/want. There ain't no, so that's why I asked around here...

Regards,

Roger
Old 26th January 2009 | Show parent
  #23
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chrisso's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Electronic drums, sampled drum software etc... it's always going to be a compromise compared to an acoustic kit.
How little you have to compromise is the key.
Also, if you have to compromise on the feel slightly, you certainly don't have to compromise on the sounds. They've usually been recorded in great studios by experienced recording engineers, something which many users of this type of product don't have access to.
Old 18th February 2009 | Show parent
  #24
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DeepSpace's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➑️
Electronic drums, sampled drum software etc... it's always going to be a compromise compared to an acoustic kit.
How little you have to compromise is the key.
Also, if you have to compromise on the feel slightly, you certainly don't have to compromise on the sounds. They've usually been recorded in great studios by experienced recording engineers, something which many users of this type of product don't have access to.
I can certainly see where you're coming from and I partly agree. But it's worth stating that the reverse can be equally true depending on one's POV. That is, acoustic drums and mic set-ups and drum booths etc... it's always going to be a compromise compared to electronic drums/samples.

At the end of the day, the question is which compromise delivers the most benefits with the least down-sides for a particular set of needs. The set-up kittonian describes certainly sounds like a good place to be.
Old 18th February 2009 | Show parent
  #25
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Hi!

I have used my expanded TD10 with the original DFH Superior for a few years now. I think it is a great setup. I've done a TON of drum tracks with it. I just recently upgraded to S2.0, and while the GUI is great and the sounds are really nice (though I think less flexible than the original), there are several things I like better in the original. I haven't spent any time at the toontrack forum yet so I could have somethings wrong, but the two big ones have to do with the hihats and midi mapping.

In the original, when you opened the ap, it asked which brain you used for mapping purposes. I was always happy with how the HH responded, and was able to do lots of tricky stuff. In the new version I haven't been able to find any such option. I have really struggled with the lack of variation in open HH sounds. The instrument/trigger drop-down lets you assign open1-open5 to a trigger, but the sound doesn't seem to be affected as much by the midi foot control messages. I'm not sure? Also, as someone else mentioned, I have used the new fandanggled hi-hat controllers, and they have a more familiar feel for drummers, buts I feel like I get a lot more control out of an old pd-7 and fd-8. Probably just me being stuck in my ways again though.heh

I think Toontrack is a really great company, and plan on picking up more of the bundles.

The drum solo and everything, but a couple of the songs on the reel on my myspace page below were done with the above mentioned configuration. Feel free to check it out.

peace.
Old 18th February 2009 | Show parent
  #26
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DaveC's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
I've been triggering Superior 2.0 with a Roland TD20 and a Hart Pro 6.4 kit. Drummers have been nervous at first but then they sit down and can't believe how real everything feels. It's quite impressive.
Been using the same myself for 2 years now; it plays, looks and feels great!
Old 19th February 2009 | Show parent
  #27
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Roger Starr's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
For the two here above, how does this kit and set up handle playing the drums within a sequencer along a song such as Cubase and/or LogicPro? Is it tight?

Regards,

Roger
Old 19th February 2009 | Show parent
  #28
Gear Maniac
 
58lespaul's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso ➑️
Electronic drums, sampled drum software etc... it's always going to be a compromise compared to an acoustic kit.
How little you have to compromise is the key.
Also, if you have to compromise on the feel slightly, you certainly don't have to compromise on the sounds. They've usually been recorded in great studios by experienced recording engineers, something which many users of this type of product don't have access to.
I would much rather compromise feel than compromise sound. I have been using the Yamaha DTXplorer to trigger EZDrummer through Cubase and I am so pleased with what I have gotten so far. It is so much better than recording a ****ty kit, in a ****ty room with my good mics (Shure Drum mic kit =D ). I think that it even feels great and is pretty darn responsive (granted, I am not the greatest of drummers, but none of my Berklee friends have complained so thats good), and EZdrummer isn't even designed for E-Kits like Superior is and I am not using a Roland.

I think that modern e-kits, Toontrack's stuff and Drumagog have been some of the best inovations for home studios and hobbysts. Drums are the toughest thing to record, and many of us can't afford the room treatment, the killer kit, the killer mics, the killer pres and the killer AD/DA conversion to make them sound great. But now we are closer than ever to a good sound and all we have to do is compromise the feel of a kit. I would say that is a good trade off.
Old 19th February 2009 | Show parent
  #29
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Starr ➑️
For the two here above, how does this kit and set up handle playing the drums within a sequencer along a song such as Cubase and/or LogicPro? Is it tight?

Regards,

Roger
Hey Roger,

I typically monitor the sounds from the TD10 in the no latency software mixer of my interface (used to be ULN2, now Ensemble). I have monitored from Superior before, but have never been as comfortable with the latency I have. Monitoring thru Superior sounds great. The latency for me isn't terrible (Dual 2.7 G5 with logic studio), but I have built enough custom kits in the TD10 that I don't mind using them for tracking purposes. It keeps the buffers high and everything stable. I'm sure there are guys here though that are using new screaming machines and don't have any problems. I also typically will give a slight nudge to the midi track if I am not doing any quantization or partial quantization. Between the midi cable connection and the usb for the midi interface (motu micro express for me), things are typically just a touch behind.

It's just a workflow stuff you get used to like anything else. I do think it is a great flexible, and powerful method for doing things.

Hope that's what you were asking.
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