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No market for softsynths & PT?
Old 8th July 2002
  #1
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Renie's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Angry No market for softsynths & PT?

More food for thought from Erik of BF on the DUC.

Erik says there's no market for softsynths in Pro Tools, especially TDM ones, and it would seem this is to some degree down to the way Digi are restrictive with developers in their practice around it. If it's true and there's probably some truth to it, it seems a real shame.

But there seems to be a whole lot of demand for applications like Reason to be working in Pro Tools and a real appetite for stuff like Native Instruments....
maybe it's mainly the Pro Tools native market.

Maybe Pro Tools will go more away from music production like people are predicting...strange times.

Renie
Old 8th July 2002
  #2
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
Digidesign boasts PTHD as the wide open frontier for Soft Synths!

I thought HD was ALL about soft synths!

At least that was the spiel at the last Digi demo I attended. (Sony studios London)

And each Digi employe I have ever met has been a midi music enthusiast / keyboard dabbler / musician.

So...

I dunno...
Old 10th July 2002
  #3
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Renie's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Yeah the softsynth market for RTAS and HTDM seems to be OK, but the TDM market is sloooow. It's cool having TDM because you get full integration and automation which is pretty essential for softsynths potentiality...

Renie
Old 11th July 2002
  #4
Gear Nut
 
Diginerd's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
How about an HTDM VST (And VSTi) shell? By the sound of Digi's marketing speak it should be doable.

The question of course is do they have the will to open Pandora's box?

Would be cool though!
Old 12th July 2002
  #5
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🎧 15 years
It would be cool if Digi opened the box but I doubt it for a year at least.
Positives are RTAS/HTDM are now becoming standard release formats along with the other usual suspects.
Hopefully the Apple/Logic move will 'encourage' Digi to compete with a more open system but it's impossible to guess. I'd love to be able to have more options and 'rewire' type integration within Pro Tools that are all Digi built...but maybe some of these freeware gizmos will suffice..

Renie
Old 13th July 2002
  #6
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🎧 15 years
Looking further into it HTDM does do automation and is very cool- I tried out the NI PT edition bundle. But jees it's expensive compared to it's Direct Connect /VST siblings. Still for what you get and say compared to the TDM Virus is still a great bang for the buck!! Hopefully more HTDM versions will become available..

Old 17th July 2002
  #7
Mac Moderator
 
MCal27's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Talking PT Studio edition

Its true that the NI Studio edition is alot more expensive than the 'normal' versions. But the CPU load is much reduced, and having that session recall facility is invaluble to me.
Outside the day job, I work with lots of different types of bands, on lots of different sessions, and before the Studio edition, I used to dread going through the 'ritual' of opening B4,Battery and Pro52 etc, and getting all the patches that I used on the track up as they were before.
If your 'Tools' guys.. you wont regret getting the HTDM studio edition. Plus its way more bug free than the new release of Sampletank unfortunately :-(

Having said that, I'm less than blown away with the Spectral delay, But then I've had a Kyma for 7 months now, so I'm spoilt in that area...

al.
Old 17th July 2002
  #8
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
from the DUC

>"We understand that soft-synths are very important in today's DAW. If I have
>earned any credibility with you in the past, then trust me when I say we are
>working on it."
>
>--------------------
>David Sumich
>Principle Applications Engineer
>Digidesign
Old 17th July 2002
  #9
Founder
 
Jules's Avatar
I belive this to be one area Digi staff are genuinly interested in....


evileye
Old 17th July 2002
  #10
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Renie's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Thanks for the lowdown on the NI bundle al. It sounds very cool in reality.

That is good news from David Sumich for PT and softsynths, what worries me is that he comes across as a very gleeful PC guy at the moment and maybe that's ominous for PT and the Macintosh..in the light of the Apple/Emagic scene.

Renie
Old 17th July 2002
  #11
Mac Moderator
 
MCal27's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
As far as Digi and the Mac. I don't think we'll see much change... I hope Avid learned from their past mistakes when they stopped Mac support. They let Final Cut Pro take a big chunk of their stomping ground. And now they have an OSX native 'software only' version of Xpress out...

I spoke to some guys pretty high up at Digi the day after the Emagic news broke, and while they didn't know what Apple had instore, they said nuthin had changed for them, and that the Release of PT5.3.1 for LE and Mix etc on Wintel XP before Mac had been planned for months. Their Mac programmers just have more on their plates at the moment, hence the delay...

Besides, I don't think anyone on these forums would yet say that a Logic 'Native ' Rig is in the same league as even a Mix system, let alone HD. Its down to responsiveness with a High Plug-in and Track count isn't it? Its what made me go Digi anyway..

al.
Old 17th July 2002
  #12
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
Native logic has excellent response under high loads if you're using a dual processor - the present implementation has all midi, automation and screen redraws taking place on the second processor. also, wait for great things when Logic goes OSX in the near future.

but for now, if you guys want to use more softsynths and samplers in an environment that includes a full TDM, you simply have to give the highest consideration to Logic TDM with ESB. It's 8 busses of native, including all logic and Vst plugins, tracks, and instruments, ported into the Logic TDM environment. the 2 audio drivers run concurrently from within Logic. I think its the most powerful compostional tool out there at the moment (you can for instance ,, port Reason, through reWire, into Logic TDM via ESB, in perfect sync, so you can use TDM plugins on individual Reason sounds...

Malcolm
Old 17th July 2002
  #13
Mac Moderator
 
MCal27's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Your totally right. Logic + TDM + ESB is a killer setup. As Long as your a Logic fan...

I would say though, I've worked on, setup/configured and supported numerous Dual 800 + 1 Gig G4's running Logic, and while they're great systems, My G4 accelerated Beige G3 running my Mixplus and some heavyweight softsynths (the N.I studio collection, Virus, Sample cell (thanks Jules!!) and Soft samplecell) runs smoother and more responsively with a really heavy workload running Tools 5.1.1 TDM. But then I prefer 'Tools' to Logic. Its a personnal thing I guess?? ;-)

al.
Old 18th July 2002
  #14
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
I only had the previous information through numerous posts from others on the Logic User Group, for instance. i'm actually waiting for Absynth to be compatible with DP's before I get a new machine. But I'm curious, were you disabling the second processor on those 800's and I gigs (maybe because until recently you needed to do that for Pro Tools use) ? It's just that your experience runs contrary to every other user I've listened to with this setup. Also, if you use the HTDM version of Absynth, does this not also require disabling the second processor?
In general, I'd say one big advantage of the Logic ESB route (and you're right, it totally depends on how you get on with the software in the first place ) is the advantages of the instuments being incorporated into the actual song, rather than requiring separate boot ups, and syncing. Sample accurate timing in ESX, as opposed to (I think) still having to use OMS with the HTDM stuff. And all settings are saved with the song. But the sync issue has been very beneficial to me. I didn't honestly know what a tight beat was till I started working this way

In general, i tend to find Pro Tools is becoming more and more; solid, dependable, and boring. There are new Vsti marvels arriving on a weekly basis - Check out Phatmatik Pro, or Kantos. the NI stuff has been a godsend to PT users, for without it where would you be, in this front? Still stuck with Virus and SSC, pretty much. I think many pro Tools pro's are genuinely not aware of how much great creative stuff is available on the native side.The rate of change in PT world on the other hand is reaching the point of Sclerosis. I believe a wealth of native technological delevelopment is about to be unleashed now OS X.2 (Jaguar) has been released, including latency throughput for native processors which rivals that of Pro Tools, 96k, ready and all yer plugs will still work

Hope that wasn't too much of a rant,

regards

Malcolm
Old 18th July 2002
  #15
Mac Moderator
 
MCal27's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
The DP G4's I used (still use at times) didn't have anything ProTools on them. Just Logic 4.8.1. Mostly running in DP Mode. But we had numerous problems with N.I stuff not giving many instanciations when the Rigs had both processors enabled.
I believe this has improved recently. But still.. Logic looks and feels sluggish compared to my Mix rig running a similar sized session.
You'll get no arguement from me on the number and 'coolness' of VSTi's I love 'em too. I hope Protools gains more of these VSTi style synths over time. (Sampletank being the latest I've used) But your right. Its way behind in this area. No arguement...
But yes, I know this stuff as fact. I've tech'd for a Major producer and his programmer many times. (both rigs setup by me) the producer on the DP mac running Logic natively, and the programmer running Mixplus with Logic as the front end, and we had a few occasions where we had to drop stuff across to the Mix rig, so the native rig would respond to the sessions requirements. (e.g: major,major artist needing to work extremely quickly)
I've no real problem with 'native' but when the heats on... the Digi hardware gives you an edge...
al.
Old 19th July 2002
  #16
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Digi finally patched the dual-processor thing. So now, even though PT doesn't use it - you don't have to turn off your second processor by removing the extension. This means that if you are running Logic -> ESB -> PT TDM then I think Logic can use the second processor. COOL. I think the ES2 is alright sounding. And it is cheap (not counting having to buy LAP and ESB and maybe PT HD EXT).
Old 19th July 2002
  #17
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Renie's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hmm got this e-mail which is a response on the NI forum

"NI has been asked very often to develop such plugs, so we decided to make
them. We have implemented them allthough we know that the number of users of this interface is relatively small compared to the number of VST or
standalone users.

>From this point of view the Pro Tools Edition is a kind of "very special"
product, especially when taking into account the development efforts.....

Best Regards

Stephan Sippel"

It does sound then that these developers see even the RTAS HTDM market as
'specialist'. Maybe especially HTDM which is the cooler of the two, as RTAS softsynths are coming through.
I don't think NI are going to be in a great hurry to back develop Reaktor Absynth etc to these formats. Shame. But maybe their new products will be RTAS VST etc like Spectrasonics "Stylus"...(anyone tried that?)

Renie
Old 19th July 2002
  #18
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Hi Renie,

I'm afraid I keep giving you second hand information but I hope it helps...

Regarding Stylus: An engineer that I work with fired it up a couple of days ago and gave me a quick demo and well, it seems totally amazing.

From what I can gather it's all preprogrammed beats/sounds (but there's a absolute shedload of em') and you can tweak the tempo to your hearts content. In realtime!

And all the loops that I heard sounded really well played/programmed/recorded.

I generally work with live musicians (as opposed to dead! ) but it seems a great tool for laying loops/percussion/sounds efx over a existing rythm section.

I'm definitely going to check it out more when I have the time.

R.
Old 20th July 2002
  #19
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🎧 15 years
Thanks for the info R, I'm looking forward to checking it out myself now!!
I don't suppose they do demo's of something like that!!:eek:

Thanks
Renie
Old 20th July 2002
  #20
Here for the gear
 
🎧 15 years
Re: PT Studio edition

Quote:
Originally posted by MCal

Having said that, I'm less than blown away with the Spectral delay, But then I've had a Kyma for 7 months now, so I'm spoilt in that area...

al.
You lucky bastard! How are the algorithms on your Kyma? Are the filters well developed?

-kesserich
Old 21st July 2002
  #21
Mac Moderator
 
MCal27's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
new thread for specific gear questions.

Hhmm, I think getting into details of Kyma might need a thread of its own. Or at least a thread for us to ask questions about one anothers gear?
I'll do that. I'll speak abit about Kyma in this new thread, and maybe some of you could list gear you own or use too?

al.
Old 22nd July 2002
  #22
Gear Nut
 
Diginerd's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Just got the full version of re:Fuse, man does it rock!

For those of you who are staring at this post blankly a quick synopsis:-

re:Fuse glues Rewire & Direct Connect together. It lets you pipe up to 16 channels of audio between Reason & Rebirth into Pro Tools. Damn thing only cost $29 and has already changed my life.

If you are half way interested in Soft Synths on PT then this the daddy!

http://www.refusesoftware.com/

PS I Don't work for Leigh (The author), I just love his work, and found him to really care about what he's doing and what people think. It's already had a minor tweak to improve things for a group of users, and the whole thing is less than 2 weeks old.

That one guy with no inside Digi knowledge could create something like this shows how slack MOS is when it comes to listening to users..
Old 22nd July 2002
  #23
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1 Review written
🎧 15 years
I'll second that... Ummm... Twice!

Not only have I tried the reFuse demo and it is a totally amazing piece of software but... (and this is a GOOD BUT!)

I had a problem with the installation, which is very easy by the way, but I was using an older version of Direct Connect and sent a email to Leigh asking him to help me out and he replied within about 20 MINUTES!

How cool is that? Who would've thought you'd get that type of support for a $29 piece of software let alone a DEMO!!!

Cool guy. I'm definitely going to be buying it soon.

In fact I'm going to buy it right now!

See Ya...

R.
Old 30th July 2002
  #24
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
This is an interesting thread. I've been seriously considering selling my hardware sampler and getting a pc to run gigastudio 160 into pro tools via adat optical. So miserable is the lack of synths/sampler options for pt, that I think the hassle would be worth it. Besides I'm seriously excited about all that disk streaming sampling etc. It makes me feel exceptionally slutty. mmmm......gear. Of course I wont bother if I believe that digi will open a few options up to us. On the other hand, having the separate setup would be very powerful. But then, it would be yet another system to maintain. It's about time SSC was dragged up to date.

I dont know if anyone else has tried it, but the new 'stylus' plug in instrument from Eric Persing is very cool. Obviously it's not as flexible as some things, but it's not expensive and it sounds excellent. You can trigger the loops from a midi note, or import a groove control midi file for tempo control. It also lets you apply pan, level, filters, and various modulation types to every single slice, or 'globally', so you can completely change the pattern and feel etc. It's quick to use too. The only thing you cant do, is import samples of your own into the loops, or use a alternate sample from the library. They might change that though. The loops sound as you'd expect if you have used his sample cd's, and there is a good range of bongo's conga's, shakers etc. There's a video on the website if you want to check it out.
Old 30th July 2002
  #25
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🎧 15 years
Sly

I totally agree!! the Giga set up idea is a hyper-exciting and minorly daunting prospect. Digi are terribly slow at software development and their plug-in's come bottom of the heap. One glance at the interface of SSC and it's obvious that 'love don't live here anymore'. I don't have the guts for the Giga dive yet but if you do it can I come over and see/hear it?!!!

There's nothing on the radar to compete with it. I wish there was. Maybe digi will surprise us with a SSC upgrade that'll wipe the floor. I seriously doubt it.

Stylus sounds cool. What are the regular percussion sounds like? hats, rides?

When I get a new Mac I'll give it a shot..my b/w G3 350 can only take so much CPU activity. NI FM7 is great sounding too, it seems a bit more versatile than Absynth which I love but has a less usable GUI.
Old 30th July 2002
  #26
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Hi Renie

There are few if not no regular hats/rides in stylus. It is a 'vinyl' module, and the core library is treated accordingly. If you are looking for natural sounding kits etc, this is not the thing. It is very much the 'I need to quickly find a hip hop loop at a certain tempo and mess around with it cos I'm on a deadline' module.

Jack
Old 30th July 2002
  #27
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
if you're gonna get Giga up and running on a PC, build your own. It's a helluva lot cheaper AND you can make sure you have EXACTLY the specs for super effieciency.

Check out the tascam forum about giga to get up to date with what works/doesn't work.


I'm about to get 2 with rte hammerfall out back lightpipe straight into daw mix it in there.

Bev
Old 30th July 2002
  #28
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I've had a look through. The specs seem to vary quite a bit. What will you go for? How much do you expect to save? I was rather hoping I could get away with a medium spec setup and save a chunk of cash. I'm not sure I want to totally build this myself as I'd get tech support if a shop do it. I have built a pc before. I couln't get it working at first, and had no one to turn to for help. Big time waster. Ideas?
Jack
Old 30th July 2002
  #29
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
hey, you're in London like me, so try

www.cclcomputers.co.uk

They sell all the bits, but they will assemble it for 35 quid! Which means at least butterfingers don't push slot A into slot Wrong (I bought one off them before, I just gave them a list that I'd specced and they stuck it together)

It was a pretty cool computer for my uncle for Β£600 inc! including monitor!

They were the only people I could find who would do that ****. The next price up for the same spec took it up to over 1k. So I'll be using them to build my giga dedicated pc's.

DONT go to Carrillon. It his hugely expensive for what it is, and if you want quiet drives and all that I have all checked all that out and its CHEAP.

The only thing that isn't cheap is that I have to buy a gforce4ti 4600 graphics card to go with them so that I can play unreal tournament 2003. But that's my other type of gearslut problem. Whoever said being a gearslut was confined to music?


Oh, and tech support from a shop?? Yeah right, you probably know more than they do.
Old 30th July 2002
  #30
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I'll check that out. I have a good relationship with DV have given me a very competitive quote based around a 2ghz p4 with 512DDR and an 80gig seagate. It's rackmount which I need. I'm wondering whether I might be able to get away with gigastudio 96 instead of 160. It's a lot cheaper.
I too am a bit of a late night game slut. I have a separate system for that though. I've cocked a windows installation up enough times with crappy games to know not to risk it in the studio.
J
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