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Is PT that much better than Nuendo
Old 2nd July 2006 | Show parent
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joris de man
What's nice with Nuendo is that you can turn off the GUI stuff you don't want: so menu's, track parameters etc. that you don't need because you're only going to use it for audio can alll be disabled/hidden in the preferences, which makes things less complicated...

joe
Actually, it's the least they could do; there's nothing more convoluted-looking than Nuendo's mixer.
Old 2nd July 2006 | Show parent
  #302
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joris de man's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Pinder
Actually, it's the least they could do; there's nothing more convoluted-looking than Nuendo's mixer.
Yes, it can be pretty full on the first time you use it. It took me a week or two to get around its indeed somewhat convoluted workflow.
But I suppose that is the tradeoff for a program that has a much larger featureset.
You can hide channel types in the mixer (such as midi and group tracks, or inputs) which cleans up nicely.
Also, since Nuendo has about 5 different ways to show a channel (inserts, sends, or EQ curve, or big VU's etc), you can toggle this globally or locally.
Working with it these days I find it no more or less convoluted than PT or even Logic.

One thing I will say that is lacking: reorderable inserts and sends. That's still a Pita and PT has had that for ages.

btw, with regards to my previous post: which feature did you mean PT had since 6? audio quantizing or switching between musical and linear timebase?
(just want to keep up with the featureset:P)


Cheers,

Joris
Old 2nd July 2006 | Show parent
  #303
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Sharp11's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joris de man
Yes, it can be pretty full on the first time you use it. It took me a week or two to get around its indeed somewhat convoluted workflow.
But I suppose that is the tradeoff for a program that has a much larger featureset.
You can hide channel types in the mixer (such as midi and group tracks, or inputs) which cleans up nicely.
Also, since Nuendo has about 5 different ways to show a channel (inserts, sends, or EQ curve, or big VU's etc), you can toggle this globally or locally.
Working with it these days I find it no more or less convoluted than PT or even Logic.

One thing I will say that is lacking: reorderable inserts and sends. That's still a Pita and PT has had that for ages.

btw, with regards to my previous post: which feature did you mean PT had since 6? audio quantizing or switching between musical and linear timebase?
(just want to keep up with the featureset:P)


Cheers,

Joris
Well Joris, the old effect of unintended consequences has finally kicked in, your posts extolling the "virtues" of Nuendo has done nothing but to convince me further that PT HD(currently I'm on 7.1) is still the bomb for guys like me, that is, composers working in film and tv.

The power and flexibility of real time TDM hardware - stuff that acts like real hardware because it IS real hardware, is tough to argue against. Many of the creative ideas I get for my scores comes from being able to do so many things in real time, for instance, on an instrument track, I can run several excellent Soundtoys TDM plugs such as Pitchblender or TimeBlender, Filter Freak etc, in real time, make adjustments, write automation, all with no latency - it's as if the daw has a real hardware component - in fact, it does.

While this is happening on track one, on yet another instrument track I can run the superb TDM Access Virus synth (eight of them if need be) with more insert effects, or I can use the Virus AS an effect and route stuff through it all in real time all with no latency, sometimes this is enough for a simple film cue.

If 5 was where you stopped, your comments on PT aren't really valid any longer, that was a world away from where the app is now.

And yes, we've had timecode vs sample vs bars/beats since ad nauseam since I believe, 6.4 if not earlier plus many, many other major improvements.

As to OSX getting in the way vs XP, I'm not even going to try to understand that one.

Ed
Old 2nd July 2006 | Show parent
  #304
Lives for gear
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11
Well Joris, the old effect of unintended consequences has finally kicked in, your posts extolling the "virtues" of Nuendo has done nothing but to convince me further that PT HD(currently I'm on 7.1) is still the bomb for guys like me, that is, composers working in film and tv.

The power and flexibility of real time TDM hardware - stuff that acts like real hardware because it IS real hardware, is tough to argue against. Many of the creative ideas I get for my scores comes from being able to do so many things in real time, for instance, on an instrument track, I can run several excellent Soundtoys TDM plugs such as Pitchblender or TimeBlender, Filter Freak etc, in real time, make adjustments, write automation, all with no latency - it's as if the daw has a real hardware component - in fact, it does.

While this is happening on track one, on yet another instrument track I can run the superb TDM Access Virus synth (eight of them if need be) with more insert effects, or I can use the Virus AS an effect and route stuff through it all in real time all with no latency, sometimes this is enough for a simple film cue.

If 5 was where you stopped, your comments on PT aren't really valid any longer, that was a world away from where the app is now.

And yes, we've had timecode vs sample vs bars/beats since ad nauseam since I believe, 6.4 if not earlier plus many, many other major improvements.

As to OSX getting in the way vs XP, I'm not even going to try to understand that one.

Ed
Right on! The lack of midlevel priced controllers for Nuendo sorta scared me away.
I got the control 24 3 years ago for about $4k, and although it's far from perfect it has a lot of functionality for the money. Maybe it's just me but I don't want to try to remember key commands while I'm mixing or recording a band. So maybe this is more about how people work, whether if you're recording bands or doing post both will work but I'm comfy in Protools.
Peace
daniel
Old 2nd July 2006 | Show parent
  #305
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joris de man's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp11
Well Joris, the old effect of unintended consequences has finally kicked in, your posts extolling the "virtues" of Nuendo has done nothing but to convince me further that PT HD(currently I'm on 7.1) is still the bomb for guys like me, that is, composers working in film and tv.

The power and flexibility of real time TDM hardware - stuff that acts like real hardware because it IS real hardware, is tough to argue against. Many of the creative ideas I get for my scores comes from being able to do so many things in real time, for instance, on an instrument track, I can run several excellent Soundtoys TDM plugs such as Pitchblender or TimeBlender, Filter Freak etc, in real time, make adjustments, write automation, all with no latency - it's as if the daw has a real hardware component - in fact, it does.

While this is happening on track one, on yet another instrument track I can run the superb TDM Access Virus synth (eight of them if need be) with more insert effects, or I can use the Virus AS an effect and route stuff through it all in real time all with no latency, sometimes this is enough for a simple film cue.

If 5 was where you stopped, your comments on PT aren't really valid any longer, that was a world away from where the app is now.

And yes, we've had timecode vs sample vs bars/beats since ad nauseam since I believe, 6.4 if not earlier plus many, many other major improvements.

As to OSX getting in the way vs XP, I'm not even going to try to understand that one.

Ed
Well Ed,

I'm not trying to convince you; you obviously have a solution that works for you, as do I.
I've listed many functions that are beneficial to me, some of which are not in PT and some of them which apparently are.
Although I love Nuendo and the way it works, I'm not going to pretend it doesn't lack certain features or has a few flaws, which is exactly why I wrote my two previous posts.

Nuendo is the bomb for me, and our work is probably not that different,although my field of music might be.
I work in Games and TV, and usually do orchestral mockups or true orchestral stuff (I've recorded with orchestras in prague, moscow and LA).
As such, I need a lot of midi tracks with VST instruments.
On a setup like mine I run on average 2 to 3 instances of Kontakt2 fully loaded (16 midichannels per instance), Trilogy, Atmopshere, and perhaps another synth or two, like Absynth.
That's effectively between 40-50 virtual instrument tracks running live, as well as a couple of plugins, like Altiverb and some Eq's.
This would be on an orchestral mockup.
For a true orchestra piece I run about 160 midi tracks with 3-4 instances of Kontakt, with an additional PC with Gigastudio for additional instruments.

This all runs with around 8ms latency, which is fine for me. On lighter sessions I can get down to 3ms or less.
However, and this is important to realize: on playback I have zero latency; meaning that if I've played a part in, recorded it, and play it back and start tweaking I have no latency, as it is compensated.

The things you mention (run a few synths, a couple of plugins, and tweak them in realtime) isn't anything that Nuendo (or any other sequencer for that matter) can't do already, with no noticeable latency.
I can also bounce them faster than realtime and have them automatically added as an audiotrack in my session, and freeze them so I can run even more instances while still having the possibillity to go back and edit them.

I would agree with you that in terms of processing power versus latency, I could probably never get down to the same level of latency as a TDM system.
But this pertains more to input channels then virtual instruments.
A buffer of 3ms or less is better than any hardware synth out there.
On playback it is sample accurate.
But considering this is an app that's say 1500 euros on a 2000 euro PC with a pretty regular soundcard, I get pretty close.
And I haven't even started on the DSP based cards yet!

You're absolutely right: I have not used PT since 5.1.3 (I briefly ran 6 on OS X but decided against OS X quite quickly), and so I don't have the latest info on PT.
I'm happy to be educated in that respect.
At the same time I get the impression that a lot of PT users haven't been aware of the developments in native land.
There seems to be this perception that latencies are huge, that latency in general is a big problem, systems are unstable and that the tools themselves are inferior.
3-4 years ago I would have agreed with some of those statements too.
But with current computing power, most of these arguments are moot.
My personal findings are that PT's TDM hardware, although nice, is not really a necessity for the stuff I do day to day.
I would say I miss the TDM plugins themselves much more than I do the TDM hardware.

If I'm not convincing you than fine, I wasn't trying to. My intention was to share my experience so people can make up their own minds.
If some of the features (or lack there of) in Nuendo validate your investment in PT, then that's fine too.

Best,

Joris
Old 2nd July 2006 | Show parent
  #306
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Hey Joris,
Your posts have been very helpful, and very imformative.
Thanks Brotha!
Old 3rd July 2006 | Show parent
  #307
Deleted User
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Joris,

I meant that you've been able to have tick-based on sample-based tracks for some time now.

As for audio quantisation, I'm not sure how to answer this. it's kind of a version 1.0 feature, but the Beat Detective has been conforming audio automatically to grids since v5.1
Old 3rd July 2006 | Show parent
  #308
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
I used pro tools (6.9 and 7.0) loved the software, hated the LE hardware and the 32 track limit (I had both the mbox2 and the 002r). There are other things about Digidesign that led me to go back and re-think this whole scenario (500.00 for 16 more tracks was one of them, as well as the way they advertised it).

It's now Nuendo 3.2 with the UAD-1 and wavecenter, emu hardware. It's Nuendo hands down. All of my projects will start and end in Nuendo; if my clientele is open minded I will absolutley do their work start to finish in it as well.

If price isn't a factor use both (which is the direction i'm heading for various reasons)
I've seen the 002r used for 550.00 and the Mbox2 for 300.00 (also used)

Force me into making a decision on one----------------

NUENDO
Old 3rd July 2006 | Show parent
  #309
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joris de man
-unlimited selective undo. I can look up the edit history and undo one element while keeping the rest.
Whoah! That's pretty amazing.... I had no idea one of the DAWS could do that. It's almost worth the price of admission right there.
Old 3rd July 2006 | Show parent
  #310
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joris de man's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Pinder
Joris,

I meant that you've been able to have tick-based on sample-based tracks for some time now.

As for audio quantisation, I'm not sure how to answer this. it's kind of a version 1.0 feature, but the Beat Detective has been conforming audio automatically to grids since v5.1
Hi Pinder,

That's good to know. I know that 5.1.3 had that abillity as well; but what it didn't do was move the events in case of a tempo change.
So say I've put regions on a bars and beats grid, with a tempo of 68.
Now I decide that actually my tempo needs to be 80..so I change the tempo. In 5.1 the events would stay at the same place, while in effect the 'musical' grid has now changed.
This would mean that audio events are out of sync with my midi events.
This is what I mean with linear time-base versus musical timebase.
If I have an audiotrack set to musical timebase in Nuendo, events are aligned to bars and beats in time with any tempo changes. So if I change the tempo of a song, the events on an audiotrack set to musical timebase will move with the tempo to stay in sync, whereas audio (or midi) on tracks set to linear timebase will stay in the same place.
Naturally I can switch this per track on the fly.

That's what I meant...

Cheers,

Joris
Old 3rd July 2006 | Show parent
  #311
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Geert van den Berg's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joris de man
This is what I mean with linear time-base versus musical timebase.
If I have an audiotrack set to musical timebase in Nuendo, events are aligned to bars and beats in time with any tempo changes. So if I change the tempo of a song, the events on an audiotrack set to musical timebase will move with the tempo to stay in sync, whereas audio (or midi) on tracks set to linear timebase will stay in the same place.
Naturally I can switch this per track on the fly.
PT can do this too since v6.7
Old 3rd July 2006 | Show parent
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geert van den Berg
PT can do this too since v6.7
I thought I mentioned this about 10 posts back. It's all a bit fast and furious now.
Old 3rd July 2006 | Show parent
  #313
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toolskid's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by joris de man
Hi Pinder,

So say I've put regions on a bars and beats grid, with a tempo of 68.
Now I decide that actually my tempo needs to be 80..so I change the tempo. In 5.1 the events would stay at the same place, while in effect the 'musical' grid has now changed.

Cheers,

Joris
you can do this with just BD not even using tick tracks!

All the best
Old 3rd July 2006 | Show parent
  #314
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joris de man's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskid
you can do this with just BD not even using tick tracks!

All the best
Which is what?

Joris

>snip<

My bad, I suppose that is beat detective....

Okay, so what about if you have a) parts that are not drums (and does it work with sync points?) and b) if you have ramped tempo?

Anyhoo, I should just leave it and not get into a pissing match here. Let's just say I'm happy with what I've got, and so are people that have a PT HD 7 set (which I wouldn't mind having too:P)

Best,

Joris
Old 4th July 2006 | Show parent
  #315
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toolskid's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
BD works fine with any audio - you don't have to cut it in BD, you can still use the manipulation facilities! It can work with sync points or without, ramping tempos are no problem! Its not always the most intuitive way of working that gets great results, but its an extremely powerful tool for audio manipulation!

Best

Em

Quote:
Originally Posted by joris de man
Which is what?

Joris

>snip<

My bad, I suppose that is beat detective....

Okay, so what about if you have a) parts that are not drums (and does it work with sync points?) and b) if you have ramped tempo?

Anyhoo, I should just leave it and not get into a pissing match here. Let's just say I'm happy with what I've got, and so are people that have a PT HD 7 set (which I wouldn't mind having too:P)

Best,

Joris
Old 29th August 2006 | Show parent
  #316
Registered User
 
🎧 15 years
Stacked recording...

One advantage that Nuendo has over PT is STACKED RECORDING.. For tracking this is priceless. Sure PT has playlists, but if you've ever tracked a session with Nuendo in stacked, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Then there's editing. Comping a vocal take for example is extremely intuitive, amazingly fast and visual. All of your takes are placed right in front of you, not hidden a way in short abbreviated playlists. This feature alone does it for me. Oh, and did I mention each track has it's own notepad? This may seem like a petty feature until you use it! I've used both platforms quite a bit, and Nuendo's interface is just more logical to me. More options, less limitations. If you're a die-hard PT guy, kewel! but do your self a favor and sit in on a session with someone who KNOWS Nuendo, and I promise you'll be blown away thinking "Damn that would save me HOURS!". Either way, use what you're comfortable with, verity is the spice of life.. My 2 cents.
Old 29th August 2006 | Show parent
  #317
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Henchman's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by intolerance ➑️
If you're a die-hard PT guy, kewel! but do your self a favor and sit in on a session with someone who KNOWS Nuendo, and I promise you'll be blown away thinking "Damn that would save me HOURS!".
Hours?

By transferring and editing TV shows I work on, into Nuendo, I save days.
Old 29th August 2006 | Show parent
  #318
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nikki-k's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
...And when I use Pro Tools, I save months of frustration...which is why my copy of Nuendo 3 is (finally) on ebay. I gave up on it once and for all. Please someone buy it? Digi is passing the collection plate this SUnday, and I need to make an offering or be cast out.

...And the last two posters work faster in Nuendo, and are more comfy there, and I would guess you will never see them selling their licenses.

Which sums up quite nicely the actual answer to the $64,000,000,000,000 question originally asked:

NO! Neither is better, it is all relative, and since the workflow differs enough, many will find one as easy as breathing, while the other makes them feel as if someone were standing on their chest. Your mileage WILL vary, two lefts dont make a right (but three can), and follow your nose, it always knows (even when it blows).

Next up: scratch n sniff analogue tape stickies; can they be manufactured with digital equipment?
Old 29th August 2006 | Show parent
  #319
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Henchman's Avatar
 
🎧 20 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikki-k ➑️
...And when I use Pro Tools, I save months of frustration...which is why my copy of Nuendo 3 is (finally) on ebay. I gave up on it once and for all. Please someone buy it?
Looking at your stuio website, you were using Version 2, right?
Old 29th August 2006 | Show parent
  #320
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nikki-k's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Hi!
I bought it back at version 1.5, and hve upgraded through the years, currently sitting at ver. 3. I just haven't had taken time to update my site, which I seriously need to do.

Please dont get me wrong: Nuendo is an excellent app. I think anyone considering a DAW for professional, project, or home work/production should consider it, as well as other flavours. I do NOT think anyone should ever restrict choices due to a preconceived prejudice, whether it be platform or DAW company, or via opinion and diatribe (including my own!). I do not think any one DAW offers a viable benefit inofitself over others. In the right hands, each is completely capable of being agreat workstation choice. PARIS clicked for me, and then when it died (I know, PARIS lives on!!!), I went to the DAW that afforded me the greatest similarity in workflow.

But, prior to that, I had years of using the various MIDI sequncer apps, and also had the audio/VST versions of apps as audio was added. And for me, PARIS was like a light being turned on in a room. It clicked for me. And many others. SOme fo those users have gone to Nuendo, and some to Pro tools, and some to...

Sorry to go on an don..I just feel very strongly that people should really spend time with an app before condemning it, or declaring it "king of the mountain." Not everyone likes chocolate ice cream; and not everyone even likes ice cream to begin with. And of ethics, pricing, etc get priority in choice, so be it. Choose wisely, and choose with YOUR head and heart, not peer pressure or such.
Old 24th September 2006 | Show parent
  #321
Gear Head
 
🎧 15 years
WoW

I just spent the past 2 hours reading this whole thread up to this point. I must say, as a Logic Pro user there definitely wasn't enough Logic bashing. I mean, why do Nuendo and Pro Tools get all that the attention? Seriously though, I'm still trying to absorb everything. I'm a novice as far as home studio work goes, but some of the suggestions about keeping the tracks to a -6 peak, and what stem's were, I had no clue before, and what towns were using what daws, and what formats different people saw alot of, and what they're expectations of the customer's were, were all pretty interesting, among a few thousand other small details.
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