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Native M1/M1x support from major DAWs
Old 21st August 2021
  #1
Gear Nut
 
aquafreak's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Native M1/M1x support from major DAWs

So I have saved for a long time and basically have the $ for a macbook pro, some pro speakers, an interface, and some software I've used in the past (Ableton, FL Studio, Omnisphere, Nexus, Sylenth, Superior drummer, native instruments)

Come to find out that I naively assumed that since it's been close to a year, of course Ableton, ProTools, and FL Studio are supported natively on Apple silicon. At least Image Line is transparent about their native support (Q3 2021). Apogee is very transparent as well.

Now it appears November is the release date. I've needed a macbook pro for production for a long time and keep holding off. But I also assumed that by late 2021 we wouldn't need a translation layer (Rosetta) for the fundamental tools we use.

So does anyone think the major DAWs at least coordinate with Apple to support upon release (say November)? Or are we realistically waiting until 2022 for native support from basic stuff like DAWs? It seems like the VSTs are a different story.
Old 21st August 2021
  #2
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Check the DAW specific sub-forums, but most say apps run OK under rosetta.

Old 21st August 2021 | Show parent
  #3
Gear Nut
 
aquafreak's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdoubleyou ➡️
Check the DAW specific sub-forums, but most say apps run OK under rosetta.

Thanks, but I'm looking for not just 'runs ok' - I'm looking for native support, not using Rosetta
Old 21st August 2021
  #4
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iomegaman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Logic X of course, and I think Reaper has binary support...(maybe as beta)...after that its a crap shoot.
..nothing in Steinberg yet, Avid is always just around the corner as long as the corner is several years of curve...

Antelope Audio is pretty much ARM ready now...AFX2DAW works great under Logic ARM...

Everyone else is still pushing Intel under Rosetta as far as I can tell except maybe RME...
Old 21st August 2021 | Show parent
  #5
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquafreak ➡️
Thanks, but I'm looking for not just 'runs ok' - I'm looking for native support, not using Rosetta
Could you explain why?

If this is important Logic Pro X and Reaper are both great DAWs, though the latter seems to be a beta for now.

All the iOS DAWs would be native as well, but might be lacking in some other areas.

Last edited by Mikael B; 22nd August 2021 at 12:13 AM..
Old 22nd August 2021
  #6
Gear Nut
 
latest versions of BitWig and Motu DP are both M1 native
Old 22nd August 2021
  #7
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I think you are looking for a solution to a problem that doesn’t actually exist. I’m totally with you from an ideological standpoint! I’d love it if every tool I needed was M1 native... I’m usually obsessive about stuff like this... however, even using Rosetta to translate an app to ARM provides me with superior performance using Nuendo... so even though it’s not native, it’s still a step forward. When Nuendo gains native status, it will be another step or two forward.

Remember this stuff is in it’s infancy and it’s still on par with the best X86 has to offer... and they have been squeezing every last drop of performance out of that architecture for years, decades even!!!

Just go for it! The performance is astounding, especially given the cost and the relative maturity of the architecture... it’ll only get better.

-B

I know it’s hard, but try to abstract stuff like this as much as possible... Then making music becomes more fun!! I’ve worked really hard to do this lately. I try as hard as possible to just forget the specs of the computer, the operating system, the interface and converters and just think of it as a closed system that performs a task... we didn’t think about all of these things individually when using a tape machine!
Old 22nd August 2021 | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmdaugherty ➡️
we didn’t think about all of these things individually when using a tape machine!
Really? I'd think someone had to think about all those parts making up pro audio with tape. I remember thinking about things like azimuth, bleed prevention and what not.
Old 22nd August 2021 | Show parent
  #9
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B ➡️
Really? I'd think someone had to think about all those parts making up pro audio with tape. I remember thinking about things like azimuth, bleed prevention and what not.
You’re right about that stuff... bias, azimuth, etc. but you could accomplish these things all within the closed system of that machine. Now we go around creating a system of components and we have to worry about compatibility and architecture...

It’s more like designing a tape machine from scratch... at least that’s how it works in my brain!

-B
Old 22nd August 2021 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Guru
 
Muser's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
If this were my conundrum, I’d probably migrate my internal OS to an external bootable SSD, then erase and install a fresh OS internally. so the internal is then bootable as a M1 Native only system and the external a clone of the current sate.

mind you, that’s assuming the current OS can migrate and boot to an external drive. of which I’m not totally certain the current M1 Native OS’s can do that. I’m sure some channels on youtube must have tried that at this point. given they often like to try to do these kinds of things.
Old 24th August 2021 | Show parent
  #11
Gear Addict
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquafreak ➡️
Thanks, but I'm looking for not just 'runs ok' - I'm looking for native support, not using Rosetta
I understand your impatience and I also think it's almost scandalous how long major music software manufacturers take to release native M1 versions, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, because:

Do either your laptop purchase choice or your DAW or plugin choice really depend on how soon native M1 support becomes available?

As I see it, all your favourite software and plugins are going to be M1 native at some point, and whenever that point comes, an M1X Macbook Pro with all of that software and plugins is going to be the most powerful, most performant music work station there will be. So from that perspective, the only sensible choice is to buy an M1X Macbook Pro no matter what.

If your preferred DAW doesn't go native Apple Silicon by November, so what? An M1X MacBook Pro would still be the best choice and you could work just fine with it until the native support comes.

As long as all the software you use runs fine under Rosetta 2 now (which it does for me on my M1 MacBook Air), it doesn't really matter how long native support is away, because I can still work just fine now, and once everything will be on native Apple Silicon support, there will be no better audio production environment than a Mac, so it wouldn't make sense to buy a different machine now anyway.
Old 2nd September 2021 | Show parent
  #12
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexe ➡️
I understand your impatience and I also think it's almost scandalous how long major music software manufacturers take to release native M1 versions, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, because:

Do either your laptop purchase choice or your DAW or plugin choice really depend on how soon native M1 support becomes available?

As I see it, all your favourite software and plugins are going to be M1 native at some point, and whenever that point comes, an M1X Macbook Pro with all of that software and plugins is going to be the most powerful, most performant music work station there will be. So from that perspective, the only sensible choice is to buy an M1X Macbook Pro no matter what.

If your preferred DAW doesn't go native Apple Silicon by November, so what? An M1X MacBook Pro would still be the best choice and you could work just fine with it until the native support comes.

As long as all the software you use runs fine under Rosetta 2 now (which it does for me on my M1 MacBook Air), it doesn't really matter how long native support is away, because I can still work just fine now, and once everything will be on native Apple Silicon support, there will be no better audio production environment than a Mac, so it wouldn't make sense to buy a different machine now anyway.
I am not a developer... but I'm curious... Does anyone know how complex is it to port over Plugins... (or DAW's for that matter!) from x86 to M1 architecture???
Old 2nd September 2021
  #13
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
I think it has a lot to do with the development environment used... if you have been working in Xcode, you can, in oversimplified terms, check the arm64 box and make a universal binary. There may be additional compiler errors you have to correct, but the tools are there and if your coding practices are really great, apple has set you up for a relatively easy transition. If you haven’t been using Xcode, the process is more difficult, to varying degrees, based on the environment you use to dev.

Huge oversimplification, but it’s a variable that can definitely change delivery schedule of native apps and plugins on a per manufacturer basis. I think this is why some devs had m1 support fairly quickly, and why others are taking longer.

Obviously complexity and sheer number of lines of code, custom libs, and 3rd party sdks (ilok for example would have to support m1 native before an application using ilok could be considered fully native) all have a lot to do with it as well (a whole daw with all of its libraries and resources, vs. a plug-in which is more compact).

-B
Old 2nd September 2021 | Show parent
  #14
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iomegaman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmdaugherty ➡️
I think it has a lot to do with the development environment used... if you have been working in Xcode, you can, in oversimplified terms, check the arm64 box and make a universal binary. There may be additional compiler errors you have to correct, but the tools are there and if your coding practices are really great, apple has set you up for a relatively easy transition. If you haven’t been using Xcode, the process is more difficult, to varying degrees, based on the environment you use to dev.

Huge oversimplification, but it’s a variable that can definitely change delivery schedule of native apps and plugins on a per manufacturer basis. I think this is why some devs had m1 support fairly quickly, and why others are taking longer.

Obviously complexity and sheer number of lines of code, custom libs, and 3rd party sdks (ilok for example would have to support m1 native before an application using ilok could be considered fully native) all have a lot to do with it as well (a whole daw with all of its libraries and resources, vs. a plug-in which is more compact).

-B
Yep, and iLok is going to be the fly in the ointment here...because they support such a wide swath of vendors who in turn support a wide swath of platforms...
They are probably under immense pressure from the sales department to get native complaint, but at the end of the day they have everyone by the nutz and can say "We'll get to it when we get to it"

I used to hate Pace/iLok...then I learned to accept them now I've learned to accept my hate for them.
Old 6th September 2021
  #15
Old 6th September 2021 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 
iomegaman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildschwein ➡️
Yes, it is encouraging, although the author did his best to OBSCURE the beta of a DAW running native silicon the word "SESSION" is a bit of a give-away...

If it's who I suspect it is (Logic/Reaper both have native versions available so it's not those guys and plenty of plugins are native now), the invisible elephant in the room might be an avidly popular studio DAW that used to come with hardware back in 002...which means that iLok as well must be close to landing in native-land...

I like Logic, but prefer PT...I hope they get there before my support runs out.
Old 6th September 2021 | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublestop ➡️
I am not a developer... but I'm curious... Does anyone know how complex is it to port over Plugins... (or DAW's for that matter!) from x86 to M1 architecture???
Majority of the code written is in either Objective-C, C or C++.
Porting that code isn't the issue.
Since we need fast response times especially for audio in real-time, developers have to look at the bottleneck locations and consider writing that little part of it in, this case, Intel ASM (Assembly) code.

Well, since we're looking at Apple Silicon, now those existing ASM developers either have to learn Apple Silicon ASM (Assembly) or the company has to hire Apple Silicon ASM (Assembly) developers which aren't many, except at Apple.
The thing here is, you have many options to develop your code but it takes years to figure out which way is the proper way.

That's what's taking the long time to port.

The other thing too regarding Big Sur is, what use to work in previous OS's. might not work because Apple made changes to the OS which has nothing to do with Apple Silicon.

I know Logic developers want you to start using AU3, but man, the documentation sucks on that and even when you submit a support request with examples of what's not working, it's been months and I've yet to get a response from Apple.

I have a MacMini M1 and love it but I use Logic and my main goto plug-ins, Zebra2, ZebraHZ, Diva, Ace, Nexus3 and Omnisphere are Native M1.
I was able to purchase Kirk Hunter Diamond for EXS24 so I can run a great orchestra on my M1.
AAS also has Native M1 apps.

I think if you're using the software for business, I would consider getting a new Intel Mac and wait till another year to see where developers are at with Apple Silicon. In my opinion, I think you actually might see some developers exit from Apple Silicon on current products and just create brand new products.

If you go with another Intel Mac, you have a new Mac with your old Mac as a great backup and you know all your software currently works great so it's still smooth sailing for you.
Old 6th September 2021
  #18
js1
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
My understanding is, at present, if you run an M1 native DAW, you can't run the plugins under Rosetta. So, it's kind of an "all or nothing" situation.
Old 7th September 2021 | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by js1 ➡️
My understanding is, at present, if you run an M1 native DAW, you can't run the plugins under Rosetta. So, it's kind of an "all or nothing" situation.
You shouldn't be using Rosetta 2 at all.

If you find a bug in the Intel version running under Rosetta 2, no developer is going to waste their time modifying Intel code to run on a translator (to which they don't have code access too) to make their software work. For that developer it's a hit or miss because they don't have code access to the translator and Apple hasn't open source Rosetta 2.

On my MacMini M1, I don't have Rosetta 2 installed, main reason, I want to make sure that I only run Native M1 applications.

One thing I have noticed is, while the Applications may be Native M1, a lot of developers haven't updated the installers properly. So what happens is the installer wants to install Rosetta 2.
A lot of developers are fixing that, to those that haven't, at least you can unpackaged the installer and manually install the components yourself.
Old 7th September 2021 | Show parent
  #20
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iomegaman's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ValliSoftware ➡️
You shouldn't be using Rosetta 2 at all.

If you find a bug in the Intel version running under Rosetta 2, no developer is going to waste their time modifying Intel code to run on a translator (to which they don't have code access too) to make their software work. For that developer it's a hit or miss because they don't have code access to the translator and Apple hasn't open source Rosetta 2.

On my MacMini M1, I don't have Rosetta 2 installed, main reason, I want to make sure that I only run Native M1 applications.

One thing I have noticed is, while the Applications may be Native M1, a lot of developers haven't updated the installers properly. So what happens is the installer wants to install Rosetta 2.
A lot of developers are fixing that, to those that haven't, at least you can unpackaged the installer and manually install the components yourself.
Protools run fine under Rosetta on my M1...it actually runs better than on my Mac Pro that has 64 gigs of ram...it is running in Rosetta of course...as are its plugins and a ton of others.

Eventually I'm sure all will be native, but eventually is not here yet, in the meantime studio needs to keep running.
Old 7th September 2021 | Show parent
  #21
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ValliSoftware ➡️
You shouldn't be using Rosetta 2 at all.

If you find a bug in the Intel version running under Rosetta 2, no developer is going to waste their time modifying Intel code to run on a translator (to which they don't have code access too) to make their software work. For that developer it's a hit or miss because they don't have code access to the translator and Apple hasn't open source Rosetta 2.
But that’s exactly what they appear to have done! Protools and cubendo for instance (the only ones I really follow enough to know) specifically released point updates that ‘officially support Rosetta 2’ perhaps they did a point update just for bookkeeping and didn’t actually change any code, but if that were the case, I would think that they would just do a press release ‘x.x.x is rosetta2 tested and approved!!!’

Anyway, I was never asked to install rosetta2 or anything like that. I got my Mac mini M1 and started installing Rosetta approved apps and everything is drastically more powerful than my 18mo old intel system. I know it’ll get even better when everything gains native status but until that time, I’m still going to use what works to make music!!

-B

I do agree that in a perfect world, no Rosetta would be required at all but companies do care enough to release an intermediate point update with ‘official rosetta2 support’ whatever that actually means!
Old 7th September 2021 | Show parent
  #22
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ValliSoftware ➡️
I think if you're using the software for business, I would consider getting a new Intel Mac and wait till another year to see where developers are at with Apple Silicon. In my opinion, I think you actually might see some developers exit from Apple Silicon on current products and just create brand new products.
Given how well Rosetta2 works this makes no sense to me. It's only if a key tool simply doesn't work and cannot be replaced that it would. Quite a few tools (far from all, of course) run better in Rosetta2 than they did on Intel. C'mon!

So far finding native alternatives is just exciting. Like for instance using Maestral for dropbox and other solutions.

Shouldn't run Rosetta2 my ***. I run whatever I want and works; some times it just doesn't and occasionally some didn't before either; I talk to developers no matter what. Some are actually interested. There're many great music software developers whose work I have a great respect for.
Old 7th September 2021 | Show parent
  #23
Here for the gear
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by js1 ➡️
My understanding is, at present, if you run an M1 native DAW, you can't run the plugins under Rosetta. So, it's kind of an "all or nothing" situation.
Don’t know how Pro Tools is going to do this once it’s Silicon native. Logic has something built in that, though Logic is -of course- running natively on M1, plug-ins in Logic can still run under Rosetta 2.

As for Pro Tools AAX and all plugin developers using iLok, PACE is the bottleneck for now. If your plugin has ilok protection , no plugin format AU/Vst/AAX etc can be running natively on silicon because PACE isn’t ready. Also if the plugin doesn’t use iLok protection but its own serial key system, Spectrasonics, celemony , fabfilter etc, the AAX pro tools version can’t be running native on silicon yet, because every AAX plugin has to be signed by (drumroll…) PACE. So I hope they figure out their code soon at PACE , because a whole lot of developers depend on iLok or Pace.
Old 7th September 2021 | Show parent
  #24
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by js1 ➡️
My understanding is, at present, if you run an M1 native DAW, you can't run the plugins under Rosetta. So, it's kind of an "all or nothing" situation.
An alternative may, or may not, to use a tool like Audio Gridder or some kind of wrapper on the same, or another, machine. On the same, it's not a given this will work, but might be worth exploring.
Old 13th September 2021
  #25
Gear Maniac
 
Just got the base model of the new m1 mini to try things out. Installed Ableton and Pro Tools (both running through Rosetta.) I also installed numerous plugins: Soundtoys, Fabfilter, Slate, PA, Spectrasonics, etc. —some running native M1, some Rosetta. Either way, the install went great on the first try and I must say this machine is quite a beast. No issues over here.
Old 14th September 2021 | Show parent
  #26
Gear Guru
 
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2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquafreak ➡️
Thanks, but I'm looking for not just 'runs ok' - I'm looking for native support, not using Rosetta
3 weeks later ... a 3 week tour .. the weather started getting rough .. haha ...

ok ok ... enough Gilligan ..

where do you stand now after 3 weeks ????

i run my entire system Logic, Pro Tools, Live, Harrison Mixbus, etc .. and all the plugins i have used in the past (yes some are not ready yet) under "Rosetta" ... if no one told you Rosetta was there, You Would most likely NEver Know IT !!!

cheers john

so, try it you'll like it !!!
Old 14th September 2021 | Show parent
  #27
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ValliSoftware ➡️

Well, since we're looking at Apple Silicon, now those existing ASM developers either have to learn Apple Silicon ASM (Assembly) or the company has to hire Apple Silicon ASM (Assembly) developers which aren't many, except at Apple.
There are more people skilled in ARM64 assembler out there than there are skilled in x86_64 assembler.
Old 15th September 2021 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by chelgrian ➡️
There are more people skilled in ARM64 assembler out there than there are skilled in x86_64 assembler.
Do these people do real-time development as well?
Old 15th September 2021 | Show parent
  #29
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael B ➡️
Do these people do real-time development as well?
Yes because most of them started off doing embedded work with real-time constraints like 'heads fly in to hard disk' if they don't compute the correct instructions for the actuator in the right time slot or car crashes if the ABS brakes aren't computed in the right time slot.

The point is the ARM ecosystem is much larger than the x86 ecosystem but as much of it is not directly customer facing end users are not aware of it as much.
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