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Sad state of DAW controllers in 2020
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #451
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc ➡️
No that's not what I mean. When people say "modular" to me that means being able to use different modules together. The iCon / Behringer and others are modular in that sense since they have a master unit and extenders. It's not 'more modular' because of square edges, just more ergonomic.

What's more modular is the Blackmagic Design and Avid gear. And it looks better and is more ergonomic.

It's 2021 and I really don't think that all of these companies for all these years have been suffering from having dumb designers who simply didn't "get it", even after big companies like Avid came out with their devices.
Yes, sorry, I wasn't meaning they are dumb, they might be the smartest designers in the world really, but there's no denying that in some cases they overlook (maybe even consciously) basic ergonomics; I commented in the previous post about Audi SUV's, I'm pretty sure Audi can afford the coolest designers in the industry, but still I'm not going to drive a car with a half foot gap between the trunk level and the loading threshold if I have an alternative, even if they gave it to me for free, and that's basic ergonomics screwed up, no way around that One could just argue that if the only thing you use your trunk for is storing your jacket while driving, you wouldn't give a damn to that gap, and that's fine and understood, but that's not my case, so similarly the Faderport design choices might be fine or even perfect for others, just not for me

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc ➡️
It is if you value tighter integration + a touch screen.
I do about the integration, but CC121 did have tight integration on a sort of Avid Dock + 1 fader at less than half the price of the Avid Dock; and the touchscreen, I could value it if it was built-in for that money, not if I have to source it myself

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc ➡️
That's incorrect. With Cubase the Avid controllers all the way up to the big s6 all use Eucon as a protocol.
That I wasn't aware of and could change the picture to some extent, I'll investigate, thanks for pointing that out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc ➡️
And I absolutely see the argument both in not paying that much money and not paying Avid because you don't like the company (if that's the reason).
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #452
Gear Addict
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicheleS76 ➡️
Good point, and I might consider doing that at some point, but I am enormously scared of the quicker and quicker obsolescence of products in our age: I don't know about Avid and the S1 has been out for little more than one year it seems, but it won't be until 1-2 years that I'll have my new studio set up, so I might get the dock and 8 faders say in 2023, then other 8 faders in 2024, etc. but then the S1 might be already end of life :(
I got a pair of Genelec M030 a few years ago for my home studio and having recently moved I changed my setup and needed isopads for them, which made me discover they have been put out of production for a while already: I was lucky enough to get the very last isopad pair available in their warehouse, and that was just a few years after I had bought them, and we're not talking of $20 CostCo speakers or an obscure low-end manufacturer here
Again, not blaming them, I suppose that's how market goes lately and there's nothing anyone could do about it, but man it sucks
Hopefully, in 1-2 years from now when I'll be actually on the market for stuff, some new modular controller at what I consider a fairer price point will be available, we'll see



Indeed! I had found the Tango to in my wanderings, and I remember thinking "That's it! I want this!" only to discover it was no longer produced :( But you are right, to have tight integration the controller needs to either be built directly by the DAW company or in close interaction with them, this is why now that the CC121 has been discontinued I am strongly hoping for a new controller from Steinberg with similar features but multi-fader and modular: I heard rumors that something will be presented at the next NAMM, we'll see!
Presonus have tried to go that route with the Faderport series and that has to be acknowledged, but I already commented on those: maybe their designers are top notch, but what they come up with just doesn't work for me
But then again I could say the same of many top notch cars too I guess: people pay 50K+ for an Audi SUV with basic design flaws such as a trunk level more than half foot below the loading threshold, then will curse themselves - or maybe not because they spent that much on it - the first time they have to take a heavy box out of it... but not me, thanks, I'm all for ergonomics!



Totally agree with you, this would be sensible design modularity! And I would add a meter bridge module too
All the best with your endeavors, I'll keep a curious eye on your products and hopefully you will succeed!!
Thanks for the comments. And funny enough, I've been thinking about a meter bridge module as well, but just wondering how to achieve it at the moment while making financial sense.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #453
Tui
Gear Guru
 
Tui's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicheleS76 ➡️
i.e.: why the companies who ALREADY produce and market cheap/cheapish multifader controllers either totally miss or screw the modularity thing, except for iCon?

Peace
I think it's the Zeitgeist. Since the 70s we've collectively and progressively moved away from physical hands-on experience to virtual reality. I find people in general understand physical reality less and less, they are too used to two-dimensional, easy to digest representations of real things.

For musicians this means less hardware - don't we know it - and, whatever hardware remains, it has less and less controllers of any kind... Some gear doesn't even have an on-off button anymore.

The last time I checked, most master-keyboards didn't have Aftertouch, let alone the polyphonic variety. Development of Sysex seems to have stalled, good luck with finding Sysex-capable gear these days. Sysex could and should have been the standard around which a whole universe of controllers could have been built - the possibilities are endless.

So, bottom line, I think the people charged with designing hardware controllers, these days, do not really understand how they will be used. Consequently, what we're seeing is a small number of very expensive, high-quality products and a large number of inexpensive toys.
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #454
Lives for gear
 
Melgueil's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Well, I've been though the 5 stages of grief on this one (now in the final stage "acceptance"). Part of this is generational, technological and also also pure business. Generational in that it is fair to say today many folks setting up home and even commercial studios have never touched a console - it's simply not their reference point. It's more likely - a mouse. Technological - the OS platforms that these DAW's sit on top of have the mouse and keyboard hard-wired into their DNA. Economics/Business in that the full time high end pros's simply cannot afford to look away from the time savings and recall that ITB production offers.

On the subject of controllers and consoles. It seems like everyone wants at once flexibility and choice, as well as dedicated controls. Tough to have both. With a console you had "that" EQ, sends, maybe compression. That was it - none of this 20 different modelled compressors. I see folks clamouring for a "dedicated" channel strip. Ok, but if you want that it will be dedicated for one, maybe stretch it to a few plugins. The other option is a wide open, programmable controller surface. Here you have choice but you sacrifice 1:1 dedication that refers back to what was the hardware model. Avid took somewhat of a step toward tighter interlock with the S series, but even there ....

So after hoping, wishing for the "mother of all control surfaces", I'm now just accepting that will never happen because the market is far to splintered to please everyone. A mouse and something that strikes the right balance between flexibility and dedication is about as far is it will go. For years I've often heard "if only xyz vendor would make a full fledged 24 fader "console" like controller with a fat channel and add back in all of the bells and whistles, they'd sell a ton of them". Well, years have gone by and nobody has made that controller. Likely, because despite of the calls for this in online forums such as GS, there truly is not a market for this kind of thing. Someone would have made it already and sold that "boatload" of that infamous control surface. I wish it were otherwise, but I need to get on with music production and not cling to "what-if"'s which are more pipe dreams than reality to be.

Cdlt
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #455
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tui ➡️
I think it's the Zeitgeist. Since the 70s we've collectively and progressively moved away from physical hands-on experience to virtual reality. I find people in general understand physical reality less and less, they are too used to two-dimensional, easy to digest representations of real things.

For musicians this means less hardware - don't we know it - and, whatever hardware remains, it has less and less controllers of any kind... Some gear doesn't even have an on-off button anymore.

The last time I checked, most master-keyboards didn't have Aftertouch, let alone the polyphonic variety. Development of Sysex seems to have stalled, good luck with finding Sysex-capable gear these days. Sysex could and should have been the standard around which a whole universe of controllers could have been built - the possibilities are endless.

So, bottom line, I think the people charged with designing hardware controllers, these days, do not really understand how they will be used. Consequently, what we're seeing is a small number of very expensive, high-quality products and a large number of inexpensive toys.
Great (and sad) summary
I guess it's the same trend whereby, despite having the best technology humankind has ever had, most people consider it acceptable to listen to music out of a micro mono speaker or watching movies on a 5'' screen, which 30 years ago would have been pure blasphemy
And I'd be fine with that if that's their choice, but what bothers me beyond measure is the fact that this is hindering MY freedom of making a different choice in more and more situations (more and more keyboards don't have Aftertouch as you said, more and more cars don't have a CD player, etc.)
Old 1 week ago | Show parent
  #456
Gear Head
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melgueil ➡️
Well, I've been though the 5 stages of grief on this one (now in the final stage "acceptance"). Part of this is generational, technological and also also pure business. Generational in that it is fair to say today many folks setting up home and even commercial studios have never touched a console - it's simply not their reference point. It's more likely - a mouse. Technological - the OS platforms that these DAW's sit on top of have the mouse and keyboard hard-wired into their DNA. Economics/Business in that the full time high end pros's simply cannot afford to look away from the time savings and recall that ITB production offers.

On the subject of controllers and consoles. It seems like everyone wants at once flexibility and choice, as well as dedicated controls. Tough to have both. With a console you had "that" EQ, sends, maybe compression. That was it - none of this 20 different modelled compressors. I see folks clamouring for a "dedicated" channel strip. Ok, but if you want that it will be dedicated for one, maybe stretch it to a few plugins. The other option is a wide open, programmable controller surface. Here you have choice but you sacrifice 1:1 dedication that refers back to what was the hardware model. Avid took somewhat of a step toward tighter interlock with the S series, but even there ....

So after hoping, wishing for the "mother of all control surfaces", I'm now just accepting that will never happen because the market is far to splintered to please everyone. A mouse and something that strikes the right balance between flexibility and dedication is about as far is it will go. For years I've often heard "if only xyz vendor would make a full fledged 24 fader "console" like controller with a fat channel and add back in all of the bells and whistles, they'd sell a ton of them". Well, years have gone by and nobody has made that controller. Likely, because despite of the calls for this in online forums such as GS, there truly is not a market for this kind of thing. Someone would have made it already and sold that "boatload" of that infamous control surface. I wish it were otherwise, but I need to get on with music production and not cling to "what-if"'s which are more pipe dreams than reality to be.

Cdlt
Agree, especially with the last part
Old 5 days ago | Show parent
  #457
Lives for gear
 
greggybud's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melgueil ➡️
Well, I've been though the 5 stages

So after hoping, wishing for the "mother of all control surfaces", I'm now just accepting that will never happen because the market is far to splintered to please everyone.

Cdlt
I hope it didn't take you 16 pages for this acceptance...
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