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UAD Lexicon 480L vs Relab 480L
Old 13th April 2021 | Show parent
  #151
Gear Nut
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo ➡️
There was an interesting A/B between the M7 and the LiquidSonics SeventhHeaven plugin. They were remarkably close, with some people having a hard time discerning between them. And I find their Cinematic Rooms to be a subtle step above Seventh Heaven. Plugins have definitely arrived. Stock DAW vs. UAD is another thread, and no doubt one that would be highly flammable.
I concur. There is some voodoo in those cinematic rooms. I thought 7th heaven was amazing, then tried rooms. Wow.
Old 25th June 2021 | Show parent
  #152
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
Relab has a sale right now for their lite version of the 480 for $35. UAD also has their summer sale going on. Previous comment about the UAD AMS Neve DFC might throw the win over to getting the UAD 4 for 3 bundle though since I primarily do media music now.
Old 25th June 2021 | Show parent
  #153
Lives for gear
 
🎧 15 years
I wouldn't miss that Relab deal. The developer is a Reverb expert who also coded the IKMultimedia CSR. The Delays on the UAD platform and Relab are the best vintage tools you can get ITB.
Old 13th August 2021
  #154
Gear Head
 
glenesis's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Smile

glenesis here in 2021.

This month, August, UAD have their 224 and 480L on sale for $139! Immediately upon noticing this, I rang up the 224, and found a $50 voucher living in my UA account. That brought the price if a DSP-accurate Lexicon 224 down to about an even hundred bucks for me after New York State robbed me for sales tax.

Considering I bought a hardware LXP-5 for $139 a week ago, I feel like buying these particular UAD plugs is pretty much a no-brainer.

Sale ends on 8/31/2021.

Cheers y'all!
Old 13th August 2021 | Show parent
  #155
Gear Guru
 
elambo's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by glenesis ➡️
...after New York State robbed me for sales tax.
The state charges 4%; not exactly robbery. Cali, by comparison, is 7.25%.

Anyway, for a legit 480-in-a-box, the cost of admission is intensely low. Imagine the tax on my $16,000 960L!
Old 15th August 2021 | Show parent
  #156
Here for the gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by glenesis ➡️
glenesis here in 2021.

This month, August, UAD have their 224 and 480L on sale for $139! Immediately upon noticing this, I rang up the 224, and found a $50 voucher living in my UA account. That brought the price if a DSP-accurate Lexicon 224 down to about an even hundred bucks for me after New York State robbed me for sales tax.

Considering I bought a hardware LXP-5 for $139 a week ago, I feel like buying these particular UAD plugs is pretty much a no-brainer.

Sale ends on 8/31/2021.

Cheers y'all!
If we're talking about 480l sales, Reverb Foundry has their very good HD Cart 480l emulation on sale for $79 (regularly $199) until September 6th.

If you own any LiquidSonics plugins, you can add their discount codes too to get it for an even lower price.

Last edited by SolarAxix; 16th August 2021 at 02:21 AM.. Reason: Typo
Old 5th November 2021
  #157
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
So a question comes to my mind on this. I've been reading through various Lexicon threads as I am in the market for a 480 including this one:
Lexicon reverbs: a brief bestiary

And the one from Michael Carnes on the release of the Lexicon PCM plugin bundle. Actually both threads are by him but a bunch of other former Lexicon folk pitch in.

If you haven't read the first one, the bestiary, I highly recommend it. It's a bit of a survey course on Lexicon reverb algorithms as well as history/background.

A question I have for UAD was actually sparked by the statement on their 480 product page. This paragraph specifically:
"Now available exclusively for UAD hardware and UA Audio Interfaces, the UAD Lexicon 480L Digital Reverb and Effects plug-in is the world's only Lexicon-endorsed emulation of this classic studio reverb"

World's only Lexicon-endorsed emulation...

Does this mean UAD have licensed the source code from Lexicon/Harman?
Old 5th November 2021 | Show parent
  #158
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nednerd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf ➡️
...Does this mean UAD have licensed the source code from Lexicon/Harman?
No.
Old 5th November 2021 | Show parent
  #159
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nednerd ➡️
No.
Okay. So what’s the endorsement for then?

The only plugin then that has the original lexicon algorithms that were in the 480 is the PCM bundle. Unless I’m missing something?
Old 5th November 2021 | Show parent
  #160
Gear Addict
 
1 Review written
🎧 5 years
There is something special on this Relab 480. Love the way it sounds. Got soooo much reverb plugins right now. I bought this 480 because of THIS sound. Like a unique signature that is hard to reproduce with others reverbs. Got 7th Heaven & Cinematic Rooms: absolutely fabulous. But it sounds modern. Relab 480 for better or worst sounds 80s ! And that is great when needed
Old 5th November 2021 | Show parent
  #161
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nednerd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf ➡️
Okay. So what’s the endorsement for then?

The only plugin then that has the original lexicon algorithms that were in the 480 is the PCM bundle. Unless I’m missing something?
No currently commercially available plugin (or hardware for that matter) has the original algorithms that were in the Lexicon 480L.

The PCM bundle has the PCM96 algos.
The PCM96 is the successor to the PCM91.
Like its predesessor the PCM96 does not sound like the classic Griesinger line of Lexicon reverbs.
One could argue it mimics them.

No idea what this endorsement deal is about.
Old 5th November 2021 | Show parent
  #162
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nednerd ➡️
No currently commercially available plugin (or hardware for that matter) has the original algorithms that were in the Lexicon 480L.

The PCM bundle has the PCM96 algos.
The PCM96 is the successor to the PCM91.
Like its predesessor the PCM96 does not sound like the classic Griesinger line of Lexicon reverbs.
One could argue it mimics them.

No idea what this endorsement deal is about.
Yes but the PCM96 algorithms are direct descendants of the 224 and 480 algorithms according to Carnes. At least Concert Hall (224) and Random Hall (480). The entire history of Lexicon seems to revolve around just a few algorithms (less than 10) and Carnes didn't reinvent anything to do with the the classics for the PCM96. He called out what was actually new in the PCM96 vs what was ported. He did say that algorithms are being improved upon using an iterative approach (refinement over time basically where it makes sense).

Regarding the classics he said he ported them from existing source code. I assume he used "ported" because you're moving from fixed point and assembly language to floating point and high level languages like C+ etc.
Actually that's probably where all the bodies are buried in the whole "doesn't sound like a 480" debate. He mentions that most of what people associate with that are math artifacts as related to dsp. But he has access to the original source code (or rather had access; he's no longer there).

To hear him tell it, those are the algorithms that were in the classics.
Old 5th November 2021 | Show parent
  #163
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nednerd ➡️
One could argue it mimics them.
- I think he said it's a direct port. Whatever is modern in them is to do with floating point and high level C vs assembly in the old machines.

Quote:
No idea what this endorsement deal is about.
- yeah it would be nice if UAD would chime in. Further reading of their page suggests they tried to reverse engineer the 480 (firmware/hardware analysis) but you'll not get the source code that way and you'll always end up with an approximation. Only Lexicon has the actual algorithms though and unless you have that you're in the dark kind of. Bit like blue meth.
Old 5th November 2021 | Show parent
  #164
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nednerd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf ➡️
- I think he said it's a direct port. Whatever is modern in them is to do with floating point and high level C vs assembly in the old machines....
It is my understanding that the old 224->480L source codes where "lost" when Lexicon was bought by Harman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Carnes ➡️
Hmm. Now you've got me stymied. I worked from an old diagram that Barry Blesser extracted about fifteen years ago. That was augmented by discussions with Dave Griesinger more recently. The actual source code was lost many many years ago. I don't have a 224, so I'm going to wing it on this one...
NS
Also I am not sure a "port" of the old fixed point logic design source code to a floating point dsp would be possible as such. If this required in depth rewriting of the code, it could be argued that it would leave the realm of what can be called a port and will most likely impact the sound of the reverb. But I am out of my depth now so I'll leave this as an assumption only.

I'd be curious to know the technical reason for the difference I am hearing: When using different Lexicon reverbs my ears repeatedly and consistently tell me that the PCM 90/91/96/PCM Bundle stem from another design family than the 224/224X(L)/480L/960L.
Old 5th November 2021 | Show parent
  #165
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nednerd ➡️
It is my understanding that the old 224->480L source codes where "lost" when Lexicon was bought by Harman.
This is true for the 224 not for the 480. This is in the "bestiary" thread actually.


Quote:
Also I am not sure a "port" of the old fixed point logic design source code to a floating point dsp would be possible as such. If this required in depth rewriting of the code, it could be argued that it would leave the realm of what can be called a port and will most likely impact the sound of the reverb. But I am out of my depth now so I'll leave this as an assumption only.
- not a problem in terms of what's possible. If you have access to the source code it's merely a matter of implementing it. It's just an engineering problem really. Possible. I should say that typically algorithms and programs are necessarily the same thing. Algorithms are often high level descriptions. That's the heart of the matter anyway. You can implement an algorithm in the language of your choosing if you have access to it.

Quote:
I'd be curious to know the technical reason for the difference I am hearing: When using different Lexicon reverbs my ears repeatedly and consistently tell me that the PCM 90/91/96/PCM Bundle stem from another design family than the 224/224X(L)/480L/960L.
This is also in the "bestiary" thread. He reckons math artifacts in DSP when going from fixed point to floating etc.
Same family. As in they are not new/different algorithms. Saying that though, Carnes did say that the algorithms both stay the same and evolve.
Old 6th November 2021 | Show parent
  #166
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nednerd ➡️

No idea what this endorsement deal is about.
The right to slap the name Lexicon on the gui.
Old 6th November 2021 | Show parent
  #167
Gear Maniac
 
Its Mork's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf ➡️
So a question comes to my mind on this. I've been reading through various Lexicon threads as I am in the market for a 480 including this one:
Lexicon reverbs: a brief bestiary

And the one from Michael Carnes on the release of the Lexicon PCM plugin bundle. Actually both threads are by him but a bunch of other former Lexicon folk pitch in.

If you haven't read the first one, the bestiary, I highly recommend it. It's a bit of a survey course on Lexicon reverb algorithms as well as history/background.

A question I have for UAD was actually sparked by the statement on their 480 product page. This paragraph specifically:
"Now available exclusively for UAD hardware and UA Audio Interfaces, the UAD Lexicon 480L Digital Reverb and Effects plug-in is the world's only Lexicon-endorsed emulation of this classic studio reverb"

World's only Lexicon-endorsed emulation...

Does this mean UAD have licensed the source code from Lexicon/Harman?
Thanks for the link!
Old 6th November 2021 | Show parent
  #168
Lives for gear
 
nednerd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf ➡️
This is true for the 224 not for the 480. This is in the "bestiary" thread actually.
Can you point me to it?
I browsed the "bestiary" thread and could not find a statement claiming the 480L source code is still available.

I remember reading about it being lost a long time ago. But can't find a quote for you. Maybe it wasn't on GS.
Old 6th November 2021 | Show parent
  #169
Lives for gear
 
nednerd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdf ➡️
This is true for the 224 not for the 480. This is in the "bestiary" thread actually.
No. It is the 480L code that was lost. I found the quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey ➡️
David spoke with me many times and in great detail about the concert hall algorithm and the modulation methods it used. PM me.

AFAIK David does still have the 224 code base. It was the 480 code base that was somehow destroyed.

In fact, David has wondered as to whether it would make sense to re-release the 224 as a plugin. Perhaps he and Barry will get together. Barry has mentioned to me that he would like to re-release the 250. We were speculating on another thread that perhaps this is the reason that UAD has been talking up the 250 in their recent news letter.



-Casey
Old 6th November 2021
  #170
Lives for gear
 
nednerd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Also reading this it sounds like the 224/PCM70 Random Hall/Concert Hall either were if not lost, at least not ported to the PCM96/Native Plugin platform:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Carnes ➡️
...
Since many of the complaints seem to have something to do with modulation, let's talk about it. The purpose of modulation in Lex boxes has never been about being obvious--it's always been about breaking up room modes and improving the spectral performance. In the case of the old ConcertHall algorithm, and to a lesser extent the RandomHall algorithm, this had mixed results. While spectral performance was improved, the modulation was obvious. For a great many users, this turned out to be a plus. They loved the effect. David Griesinger, who wrote those algorithms, was never wild about that effect--especially in ConcertHall. Getting any information from him on exactly how the modulation worked was like pulling teeth. He simply wasn't interested. That's why the 96 sounds a bit different from the older boxes. Unfortunately, the original 224 and PCM70 code was lost long, long ago.
...
N.S.
To me all this reads like: None of the later Lexicon creations Like PCM90/91/96/Native Plugin contain ported algorithms of the classic 224/480/960 "Griesinger et al." Lexicon processors.
The former contain algorithms written by Mr. Michael Carnes specifically for the new processing platforms.
This would also match the general sonic differences I am hearing when comparing these reverbs.
Two different families of Lexicon reverbs.

Last edited by nednerd; 6th November 2021 at 04:49 PM..
Old 6th November 2021 | Show parent
  #171
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nednerd ➡️
No. It is the 480L code that was lost. I found the quote:
Right so Casey says it's the 480 code that's lost and Michael says it was the 224. In that same thread. Maybe it's both then. The algorithm isn't lost though and that's really the key. All these guys know what the dsp is supposed to be doing so it's a matter of implementation. You said the 480 sounds different and the reasons for that are manifold. The random hall algorithm between the units however is fairly consistent.

Michael was saying that a lot of what people ascribe to the 480, e.g. graininess, is to do with math artifacts going from fixed point environments. More so than AD/DA he speculates. But that said I'm sure the hardware is another cooperative condition that accounts for these differences. If we knew the insides of the algorithms then this would be an easier task. To recreate the 480 I mean. But we don't. Lexicon engineers do however. Or at least they did when the PCM96 was developed. The random hall in the PCM96 wasn't invented by Michael at the time of the PCM96 release. It goes back to the 480. He merely reiterated he goes on to say. We all want to know what's in the algorithm. That's what matters. If UAD doesn't have access to that then I would say this is just another in a long line of interpretations of the 480.
Old 10th November 2021 | Show parent
  #172
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elambo's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by folkfreak ➡️
The right to slap the name Lexicon on the gui.
Which is quite an asset.
Old 10th November 2021 | Show parent
  #173
Gear Guru
 
elambo's Avatar
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by nednerd ➡️
To me all this reads like: None of the later Lexicon creations Like PCM90/91/96/Native Plugin contain ported algorithms of the classic 224/480/960 "Griesinger et al." Lexicon processors.
That's what Michael told me. I had some beloved presets I'd made for the 960L and when switching to plugins asked if I could somehow get a shortcut to recreating those 960L presets in the PCM verb, but there was no copy/paste-type shortcut available. We arrived at approximations by matching the 960's parameters, then tweaked a bit further by ear, but they never matched.
Old 11th November 2021 | Show parent
  #174
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nednerd's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo ➡️
That's what Michael told me. ...
Thanks for verifying my assumption

Back in the 90s I bought a PCM90 and a PCM80 and always wondered why their reverbs sound so fundamentally different when the PCM90 was marketed as the serious reverb counterpart to the FX oriented PCM80.

I assume Lexicon back then wanted to become less dependent on David Griesinger's work so they started developing a second family of reverb algorithms from the ground up.
If that was the case it's pretty obvious that Lexicon wouldn't have been too keen to communicate this strategy publicly since the Griesinger algorithms back then where considered to be the core of the must have Lexicon reverb sound.

Same here regarding the 960L. Still haven't found a good soft- or hardware replacement for what it does.
Old 13th November 2021 | Show parent
  #175
Tui
Gear Guru
 
1 Review written
🎧 15 years
It is not about subtleties or theoretical considerations...

Listen to this. There is nothing else similar I am aware of, not even remotely.

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