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Reply from Warner Bros concerning audio clip licensing
Old 21st February 2009 | Show parent
  #61
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Michaelrophone's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Okay, I wasn't quite done, as another point came to mind after posting.

If you focused your energy appropriately and stated your case this passionately to Warner Brothers initially, you may have gotten a little more out of them. Instead you decided to waste the energy on an internet forum. You do seem to be a very passionate individual with a good head on your shoulders. Just learn to focus this energy and you'll find that the industry is made up of a lot of people just like you. The point remains valid though; it's a business. And a business needs structure, regardless of how artistically impeding the structure may be.
Old 21st February 2009 | Show parent
  #62
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hi Michael, few quick replies to your points:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelrophone ➑️
The problem you ran into is that you took it ten steps further by posting a quoted refusal on the internet and went on a rampage about why you can't do it, all the while implying that you have every intention to do it anyways.
I never once impied I would upload the track whether it was legal or not, I thought I was covered for non-commercial use which was down to me being a moron and not checking the T+C of my hosting site, when I realised this was wrong I admitted my error and stated it would not be uploaded.
This simple fact precludes nearly all your other points in your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelrophone ➑️
Now, I don't know DrBill from anyone else on these forums. But after reading this thread, it's become abundantly apparent that he's a much more accomplished professional in this industry than you.
That said, you may not want to be quite so dismissive, as he's giving you wonderful advise.
I'm not a prtofessional at all, I've never sent out a demo or attempted to relaease somethign commercial, yet.
And I didn't see any 'wonderful advice', I saw someone come into the thread with a prejudgemental attitude based on my (pefectly valid) opinoins posted in other threads, and a derogatory attitude concerning a particular form of music, combined with a fatalistic view of the quality of musicanship from new and not-so-new electronic artists in general.
This attitude isn't one I look up to, no matter where it's coming from.
On top of this, Warner Brothers are one of Bill's clients which further corrupts the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelrophone ➑️
if you were more accomplished and had a few hits to your name, you might not be so keen on someone else basardizing your art for the purposes of creating their own.
Major point - no matter how big I was in the music world, if someone came to me asking for sample clearance for a non-commercial project and I dug the project, it wouldn't be a problem at all, and I think the same would go for most artists, if they actually had a say in it at all, which 9 times out of 10, they don't. Of course if the project was a commercial one, I would expect my cut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelrophone ➑️
Just learn to focus this energy and you'll find that the industry is made up of a lot of people just like you.
Hmm, the industry is made up of people like me writing/caring about the music, and then people like the WArner Bros execs who care only about the money. This is the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelrophone ➑️
The point remains valid though; it's a business. And a business needs structure, regardless of how artistically impeding the structure may be.
That statement is the perfect summing up of just how backwards the logic that this whole industry has become based on, is.

Re-read what you just wrote in that sentence, bearing in mind the whole time that this is an industry that is fueled solely by artistic endeavour, and you'll see why I have such a problem with the way it is being administrated.

Regards,

Matt
Old 22nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #63
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narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
bearing in mind the whole time that this is an industry that is fueled solely by artistic endeavour,
that has never been true - not now, not in the 160's, not in the 19040's... never true. As soon as you set up music for commerce, then commerce it is. Nothing less.... and down that path lies desire for complete control - which includes refusing sample use..... not ideal for those of you who wish to do something different, but it's certainly beyond criticism for existing in the first place. It (the purpose of being in business) has done nothing wrong apart from being in opposition to a socialist viewpoint mine actually!)... it still cannot be shot down because it exists in a monetary and commercial environment. Warners , as it happens, DO take a good view upon art when it can be justified in terms of their remit - does it promote them or make good money, or does it do no harm without further investigation.

Any further enquiry on their behalf (heck, for all they know you could be a neo-****!!) costs them money. If it's not obvious that a quick $100 of time investigation won't at least make double that back, then it's stupid to pursue it....hence the blanket response of most things - NO.

That's WHY they have said no. It does nothing for them and may even be damaging - corporate responsibility is a very heavy thing. Doesn't help the artistic cause, I agree - but I totally see why they have said no, and in their position, I would, and have, do/done the same.


Let me give you a quick (home) example.... I run a fairly successful production company. I get about 200 contacts a month from would be "studio interns". About 40 or so letters, 100 or so emails and the rest in phone calls or worst of all) people showing up.

I never answer the emails, I never answer letters, I'm pretty vague on phone calls and I don't let "show ups" in the studio at all. Why? Because if I was to answer the emails it would take time - time is money. Same for letters. If I was to entertain the number of "half hour chats" I get asked for every month I would get no work done and have no time for you guys!!! ) That is the same for Warners - they haven't even looked into your request - it's just a blanket and automatic, semi polite , no. Same as you'd get from me. The guys who DO work for me I've stumbled on by accident, or I've been looking (and believe me - if you're looking in this business you find the best very quickly !!).
Old 22nd February 2009 | Show parent
  #64
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Michaelrophone's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
Hi Michael, few quick replies to your points:

I'm not a prtofessional at all...

...Hmm, the industry is made up of people like me writing/caring about the music, and then people like the WArner Bros execs who care only about the money. This is the problem.
I can see this. I wasn't insulting you and you did pose some good arguments I was just trying to tell you that you are, in this case, very wrong. Copyright infringement is and will always be wrong.

And I'm not about to start listing my credentials, I care too much about my career to act in such an unprofessional manner. I will say this though: I've been very blessed to have made the contacts That I have and been front row and center to some phenomenal examples of successful businesses built by very artistic individuals. If you truly believe that no good has come from this industry, than nobody can help you. Is it perfect? Not even close. Does it occasionally hinder one's artistic visions for the sake of the almighty dollar? Absolutely. But let's face it, it's obviously doing something right because there are many, many, MANY opportunities for people just like you, me, Dr. Bill, and whoever else has the drive, to make a living doing what we love.

You want a concrete example? I don't care at all about country music. But guess who makes up 80% of my bread and butter jobs? That's right, country artists. And believe me, in most cases, they deserve every penny they make. And the reason is that they treated their business like a business.

So, stop crying the blues and learn from this experience right here. There was a much greater point being made all along that your "passion" has made you oblivious to. Here's the lessons I'm taking home from this thread:

1) If you ask for questions politely, someone WILL answer them for you.

2) What you do with those answers directly represents YOUR professionalism.

And a side note: professionalism will get you a lot further in this industry than passion. Everyone has passion. You're not special. Sorry, but it's true. I have a TON of passion for music and it's ALWAYS been my professionalism that lands me jobs, NOT my passion.

3) Quit while your ahead. You've been given advise, not criticism. Now that's starting to change here...

And finally 4) Learn to shut the hell up and listen. You've got a college education at your fingertips. Instead of trying to defend your honor to a group of people who (honestly) really don't give a rat's ass, why don't you READ more and TYPE less. You obviously have a lot to learn.

So go ahead and try to insult me. I don't care. I'm very comfortable with where I sit professionally. I'm actually trying to help you along; if you'd read a little closer, you'd see that's all any of us are doing. I love your drive, you remind me of myself a few years back (before I learned how to stop talking and listen). Learn to harness and focus that drive, and you WILL go far. But lose that focus, and you end up wasting countless hours on internet forums defending a lost cause. It's over man, just let it go. Some day you'll look back on this and laugh about how silly you sound. Trust me, it will still be here. I've said some things around here I wish I could take back, but I can't. And they're here, in print, for anyone to read, any time, forever.

Which brings me to one last bit of advise: Learn to laugh at yourself. If you don't, someone else will be happy to do it for you.

Best of luck,
-Michael
Old 23rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #65
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Both you and Narcoman make some excellent points and of course I'd be an idiot if I didn't agree for the most part with what you are saying with regards to commerce, control and so forth.

I also am fully aware that I am not special in any way, and that there are far more talented people than me out there doing their thing.

But this is still all besides the point I am trying to make. There is a problem. Admitting there is a problem is the first step towards solving it.

You and me both know that this industry is out of whack with the intentions and desires of those that are sustaining it, it is not an industry that operates with the best interests of musicians in mind, and for me the only thing I am really concerned about is that this needs to change.

Everything else is superfluous really. Is this industry promoting or stifling artistic endeavour in general?
This is what it boils down to. Much like politics, you can either choose to try and fight for change within a structure that is designed to reject such change, or you can fight for a new structure altogether.
The latter approach is always going to be deemed the idealistic and unrealistic one, but it is the only one worth fighting for, in my opinion.

This maybe a complete waste of my time and energy, and no dount I will look back on this thread in the future and laugh at my naivety in some ways, but it is that same naivety that seperates one ideaology from another, and clinging to these somewhat hopeless dreams of a 'new world' is what keeps me, at least, sane, when all around me I see the negative effects of the established methods.

I am absorbing everything you have been telling me and I appreciate the time that has been taken to push these points home, please don't have any doubt about that.
And in this particular situation yes of course I would have done better to just let it go and accept that this is how things are, but this conversation for me is about more than this specific issue, it's about the whole philosophy of the way the industry is shaped, based on taking advantage of the very people that provide the means for it to be sustained, and I want to see something happen that recognises this and takes it into account.
That's all.
Old 23rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #66
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narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
i don't see anything wrong in doing what you want to do.... things just don't always go as we'd like that's all. Alway remember - art is art, and business is business....sometimes they work well together!
Old 23rd February 2009 | Show parent
  #67
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yep, true enough thumbsup

The trick at the moment is to find a way to get them balanced so that one doesn't start to eradicate the other I guess, and of course if that can be done whilst at the same time giving a nice fuuck to the current regime, then all the better heh
Old 24th February 2009 | Show parent
  #68
Gear Maniac
 
Michaelrophone's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Well, now it sounds like you're calling for a revolution.

Good luck with that. And if you do make it happen, and some day you're in a position to tell a company like Warner Brothers to kiss your ass...

...look me up. I'll humbly work for a guy that can make that happen.

If he has a good team of lawyers, that is.
Old 24th February 2009 | Show parent
  #69
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Anything is possible.

All I have to do is make enough money doing what I love to be able to provide myself with a lifestyle that gives me food, shelter and some quality time, and to do it off my own back.
I'm not greedy so I don't need the earth's riches. Then I can tell anybody I like to kiss it. I can do that for myself fairly easily if I focus my will in the right areas.

But that would just be me taken care of, which is the 'I'm all right jack' attitude that I despise so much. So yes I'd like to see a change that benefits many others as well as me, revolution, whatever you want to call it, a shift in the status quo would be great, yes. All it takes is enough people with a common voice and the will to make it happen - the biggest question there has always been, how to bring those people together.
Once you do that, the rest takes care of itself, as has been evidenced countless times in human history, it never seems that big a deal at the time, though.

The problem is that most people, by their very human nature, are just plain stupid, ignorant and apathetic, even when the very values that we hold so dear are being threatened, you don't have to look any further than the last decade to see the perfect example of this.
It's the 'what can I do, I'm just an individual' attitude that holds everyone back, because they can't see the simple truth that the world is made up of 6 billion 'individuals'.

Crazy really.
Old 25th February 2009 | Show parent
  #70
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
------------------One man's apathy is another man's hard work.





One man's stupidity is another man's brilliance.------------------





------------------One man's revolution is another man's ambivalence.





One man's riches is another man's subsistence.------------------





One man's ignorance is another man's knowledge.


We do not all agree. We do not all see things the same. We do not all value the same things. We do not all want the same paradigm. Because an individual see's something as "right", "correct" or "truth" does not make it so.


To view one's "opinion" as the Gospel is the essence of self-absorption.


The laws of mankind are defined over centuries and ultimately, history will judge who was "right" and "correct" and who was not.



Check back in on this thread in a hundred years or so.......
Old 25th February 2009 | Show parent
  #71
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
If the cap fits.

I take it you understand the concept of projection.
Old 25th February 2009 | Show parent
  #72
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
If the cap fits.

I take it you understand the concept of projection.

Yeah, I prefer old skool analog projection of 70mm with 7.1, but 35mm with 5.1 is great as well. Haven't warmed up to digital projection yet.
Old 25th February 2009 | Show parent
  #73
Lives for gear
 
FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
heh

(off the map thread derailment/tangent warning!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill ➑️
We do not all agree. We do not all see things the same. We do not all value the same things. We do not all want the same paradigm. Because an individual see's something as "right", "correct" or "truth" does not make it so.


Quite so. And without all these equal and opposing forces the universe as we know it would quite literally cease to exist.

BUT. That doesn't mean that there is no right or wrong, no truth or lie, no justice and injustice, no miserable rags nor excessive riches.
It just means that one state can not exist without the other.

I don't think it's good enough however to just sit back and say this is the way it is, and to ignore the plight of those that are getting the ****ty end of the stick.

Would I ever begrudge someone being rich? No.
Would I ever expect a rich person to feel guilty about the poor? No.

But I would expect those more fortunate than others to acknowledge them and to help them see what can be done to improve their situation, or even help them directly, rather than turn the other cheek just because they know that there will always be those worse off, and not just financially, but emotionally and spiritually too.
My personal philosophy is that something phenomenal would happen were the balance to be heavily tipped in one direction. I would in fact go so far as to say our destiny is to tip that balance and watch the resulting fireworks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill ➑️
To view one's "opinion" as the Gospel is the essence of self-absorption.
Yes, but on the other hand, to write off the opinion of another individual as being nothing more than whimsical egotism, purely because it doesn't fall in line with our current personal view is the epitomy of arrogance and the sure sign of a closed mind.
Only one person in this thread has resolutely refused to see both sides of the coin.
Further, to have absolute faith in one's own judgement and to follow a path with the courage of one's convictions is an honourable tradition.
It is up to the individual to decide what system of beliefs to base his or her convictions on however, this is the power of choice that we have been given:
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill ➑️
The laws of mankind are defined over centuries and ultimately, history will judge who was "right" and "correct" and who was not.
Both Jesus and Hitler are classic examples of what an individual can do with the power that is available to every single one of us, given the strength and focus of will that each of those men posessed.
Power and energy is ambivalent, it is the individual that focuses it. History does indeed show us in those cases who was right and who was wrong, but hindsight is not an essential ingredient for making that comparison, a basic knowledge of what is in essence 'right' and what is in essence 'wrong', is.
The point here is, are you willing to go out on a limb and say that you KNOW what is truth, what is right, and what is just, or are you going to defer on that because it will avoid inevitable conflict with those that don't have the absolute faith in their own system to be able to stand up and say it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill ➑️
Check back in on this thread in a hundred years or so.......

I'm not sure I want to live that long in a physical body, personally, but I love the idea that gearslutz will still be around in 2110
In fact I'd probably give a limb to see what a pro recording studio would look like in 100 years, probably not that much different though, unless the laws of physics have completely changed, which is always a possibility..

But look Bill, just to come back to some semblance of current reality, I'm not averse to the principles of your views, I don't want to see the intellectual property of anybody violated in a way that will have a negative impact on that person's ability to derive an income from that property.

I too want to know that if I dedicate myself to the creation of something that I can expect to see some form of reward for that dedication, but at the same time I want to see more intelligent and dynamic solutions to current problems, and I'm not talking about the specific issue in this thread, but in general.
Humanity can not help but express it itself in a myriad of different ways artistically, and with every advance in technology that provides new avenues for these expressions, and broader platforms for the dissemination of it, comes the challenge of encouraging this expression whilst protecting those responsible for the creation of it.
This model we have isn't working, and so it is pointless to hang on to the end, better to let go in some ways and embrace a new model.

The best form for that model to take is a mystery to me, but what I do know is that in 100 years, people will look back and see their current model as an evolution of an opening up of avenues of expression, not a clamping down of them.
Look at any culture today and the successful ones are the ones that opened up and embraced change and diversity. The ones that shut down and locked themselves in are the ones that die off.
Old 25th February 2009 | Show parent
  #74
Gear Maniac
 
Michaelrophone's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
SLOW THE HELL DOWN BUDDY!!!

Here's what's happening RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW.

You asked a question in the BUSINESS forum.

You were given multiple reasons for why what you proposed should be pursued ONLY WITH EXTREME CAUTION due to the potentially disastrous consequences to your personal BUSINESS.

Now you're preaching POLITICS in a BUSINESS forum.

Please, drop this thread, let it die, and if you still have more to say on this subject, start a new thread in a music politics forum (or anything else that doesn't have the word "business" in the title).

Then, send me a PM and let me know where the thread is so I can catch up on the rant and possibly participate.

My point is: this is a completely inappropriate conversation for a business forum and it needs to either move or die. Personally, I think you'll get more people on your side in any other forum due to the fact that the people who read and contribute to the business forum are (for the most part) business people. I'm not saying that your opinions are wrong. There's a lot of what you said that I agree with, and a lot of it seems like a rant. But the point remains valid. It's grossly inappropriate for this forum.

With that said... I look forward to hearing from you. I look forward to contributing to this debate. Just not here.
Old 25th February 2009 | Show parent
  #75
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Hey, there was a disclaimer at the top

But fair play, you're right, not the time or the place, well not the place anyway. I shall indeed pipe down.
Old 25th February 2009 | Show parent
  #76
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carlheinz's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
i would just do what you want to do creative wise and play dumb.If something catches on, let the lawyers sort it out.Let them take the money.You want the exposure.I was on Warner Bros as an artist and I can tell you they did not want to licence anything(blade runner dialog ) from their own movie's for our album and we were on the same team.It only matters when units start moving.Otherwise it's more paperwork and they don't want to know about it..You could hire a voice over sound alike as someone mentioned.Well known actors have complex film contracts that prevent their work from being cross collateralized.Depending on the movie,the producers,directers,actors,all have rights as to where and how the work is used and or re-used.Depending on the film and who's dialog it is,It's way more complex than sending a letter and having a company sign off.
Old 25th February 2009 | Show parent
  #77
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
heh

(off the map thread derailment/tangent warning!)
I don't want to derail things any further, but I'll tell you that I agree almost 100% with everything you said. Good stuff. heh heh

Keep need to keep working at seeing the other side of the coin though! You'll get there bro.....
Old 25th February 2009 | Show parent
  #78
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FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I do my best but there's always room for improvement!

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