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Reply from Warner Bros concerning audio clip licensing
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #31
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🎧 15 years
The problem with laws is that it's just too difficult for them to be uber-specific and still manageable for everyday useage. You've probably heard the phrase "the law gives and the law takes away". It's very true. While it protects, it definately limits with the other hand. Can't have both. I choose protection of copyright, even if it means you can't get your dialog clips. Sorry.

BTW, my "assumptions" about you and what you believe are not only from this thread. As I'm sure yours of me are as well.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #32
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🎧 10 years
Yes, you're right about the law. But these things are not set in stone, they are mutable, and can be changed to be more accommodating.
WHether or not anbyone can be bothered to address the issue is a different story.

Sure you can just say well that's the way it is, deal with it, but I prefer the 'that's the way it is now, but there's room for change' philosophy.

And I hadn't made any assumptions about you whatsoever, until now.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #33
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
No, I don't feel differently. This is where the glibness of your assumptions shines through.

This is different business.
It's dialogue from a film. The system is different. It's not musicians waiting on a first royalty cheque, it's not the same ballpark.
.
unfortunately it's EXACTLY the same. The recorded voice is protected in exactly the same way whether it be speech or singing.... The sound recordings in a movie are owned in exactly the same was as sound recordings on record - the law protects them in exactly the same way. Same for video games, same for radio and adverts.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #34
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Yes I know, but what I meant was that you haven't got a load of film stars waiting around for their royalty cheque, and lifting dialogue only from a movie to be used in music isn't going to hurt revenue.

It's not like lifting a loop from a track that the original artist is waiting to make money from, so there is room to relax the rules around this, imo.
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
Yes I know, but what I meant was that you haven't got a load of film stars waiting around for their royalty cheque, and lifting dialogue only from a movie to be used in music isn't going to hurt revenue.

It's not like lifting a loop from a track that the original artist is waiting to make money from, so there is room to relax the rules around this, imo.
i know exactly where you're coming from - and I entirely empathise. However, it is far easier to administer "NO" than it is to enter into dialogue. Unless there is an obvious way to generate more money (and believe me - if they could see that you would generate them decent money they would play ball) it is much simpler to protect the IP and just say no. If they say "yes" to you, who should they say "no" to? One of the most valuable commodities in modern ents is the "desired use" IP. And that's what they have.... an absolute "no" unless it gives something to them. None of the film, TV, video game or music industry has any interest now or in the past 100 years for the "magnanimous gesture".

So it's not a matter of hurting revenue - it's a matter of absolute control and apparent exclusivity of the IP. If you had come at them through different channels - you might have got a "yes". By applying directly to them via the route that is normally a cash input channel you essentially cut yourself off. Sorry !! You need an inside man !!
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #36
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
It's ART dammit, what's their problem
Yeah.
It's THEIR art. Not yours.
What's the problem?
Old 9th February 2009 | Show parent
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zakco ➑️
Yeah.
It's THEIR art. Not yours.
What's the problem?
true enough. and art has nothing to do with it !!
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zakco ➑️
Yeah.
It's THEIR art. Not yours.
What's the problem?
Thanks for completely missing the point. There are thousands of examples where artists have been wiling to share samples and parts of tracks in order for them to be used in other creative and artistic endeavours.
In fact, there are hundreds of competitions up on the internet with samples of instruments and vocals of well-known acts made available for artists to remix and use creatively, and this is a good thing.

Your absolute ownership attitude is what is wrong with the industry in general, it's nothing to be proud of.
So that's my problem. Your attitude is the same attitude as the money men, it's not the attitude taken by the artists themselves.

Narcoman hit the nail on the head, firstly by understanding the creative process, and secondly by pointing out that it is the desire for more money and not more art that is governing the decision to say yes or no in these situations, and of course I appreciate that this is a concern, but it's still not something that I think is ideal.

No artist under the sun would deny the use of a sample if it was to be used for an artistic purpose that they appreciated, so long as they got their dues were it to become commercial.
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #39
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
No artist under the sun would deny the use of a sample if it was to be used for an artistic purpose that they appreciated, so long as they got their dues were it to become commercial.
Hence the reason your request was flat out denied with no explanation or negotiation. If you think Warners is difficult, try Disney. They want to protect the "aura" of what Mickey Mouse is, what Disney stands for, and how Disney overall is preceived - with a passion and fervor that makes islamic jihadists look tame.

As soon as these corporations (warners, disney, et al) let their creative property out, they no longer have any control. And they are ALL ABOUT control. They create and manage their image and property very, very carefully.

You can't possibly imagine what creative uses I could come up with if I had a bunch of Mickey's dialog to cut up......

The bottom line always comes back to ownership, how you define "ownership", and what rights "ownership" entails. Ownership has traditionally been defined a certain way. Newcomers want to re-define it because "the times are a-changin'". (ie:: they want something for no cost - or at least no cost until they make money.) For the newcomers who want to break down walls, AT BEST, it will take a long time to get things changed over the way they want. If ever.

I'm actually excited that Obama and Biden are (it looks like - hopefully.....) going to take a proactive stance on protecting and cultivating creative property, and help get the music industry back on track. Time will tell.

The reality is you are either inside the law or outside on this issue when you decide to "sample" someone elses "property". Much of what passes for "creativity" these days (garageband, soundtrack, making songs out of purchased loops, etc.) is really just re-gurgitated pre-fab creative building blocks that someone else other than the "writer" came up with. Sampling had huge potential. Unfortunately, I don't see it as having lived up to it's promise. As practiced by the masses these days, it's a dead end road creatively, and one that ultimately leads to inbreeding and sameness.

The days of learning and mastering an instrument for the express creative purpose of expressing yourself seem long past for the most part......

Oh well, some still uphold the tradition...
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #40
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Am I to understand from what's been said here that when a radio station has a 15 sec program intro that includes boku number of clips from films and songs, etc. that it is illegal? If it is, I assume it's just too bothersome and pointless to litigate?

Dr. Bill, I think there's more hope than you suggest in regards to mastering instruments for creative expression. The entire Folk music scene, Wilco, Son Volt, Steven Delopoulos, Death Cab for Cutie, Alvin Youngblood Hart, The Damnwells, Modest Mouse, Phish, Over the Rhine, the Innocence Mission...
Maybe I'm missing your point somehow, but I hate to see anyone get too down about the state of creative mastery. It's all still out there.

As for the OP, there's some really good advice here, man, don't miss it. For further study, consider the case of Moby, who became a household name through careful advertising licensing of his songs (all of which sampled other people's works). If you have the skill, you can work inside the system to help you rather than hurt you.
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mprewett ➑️
Dr. Bill, I think there's more hope than you suggest in regards to mastering instruments for creative expression. The entire Folk music scene, Wilco, Son Volt, Steven Delopoulos, Death Cab for Cutie, Alvin Youngblood Hart, The Damnwells, Modest Mouse, Phish, Over the Rhine, the Innocence Mission...
Maybe I'm missing your point somehow, but I hate to see anyone get too down about the state of creative mastery. It's all still out there.


Certainly there's some great stuff out there. I was speaking to the genre's that rely heavily on sampling others works and pre-fab loops. I'll refrain from naming them. In those genre's, it's just the same old tired stuff....

Still there's good stuff to be had if you look.
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #42
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🎧 10 years
mprewatt, yes I'll definitely be taking a more comon sense approach away with me from this thread so all good

Bill, I totally understand where you are coming from, but it saddens me slightly that you seem so predisposed to write off anything that contains a sample as being unartistic, or more to the point, unoriginal.

That is a very dated and uninformed opinion.

Now I do agree with you that sampling has been abused, and I hate tracks made from loops just as much as the next man, which is why I never use them, you're still seeming to confuse 'using a sample' with 'using loops', or thinking that the use of a couple of clips of dialogue (as in my case), automatically means that the composition relies on those clips as a crutch for all the musical content.

This is misguided and actually quite offensive.

But you bring up another point which is to bemoan the fact that there is a lack of mastery of instruments and musicanship in general, but when was the last time you, or anybody on this board quite frankly, went to the music showcase section of this forum and had a scout for some material in the positive hope of proving yourself wrong?

The sheer unwillingness of the pro community to involve themselves with any music other than that plonked on their front doorstep is a contributing factor to what is being churned out of their respective studios, imo.

It doesn't seem like anyone complaining about the lack of 'good' new music is even the slightest bit interested in actually hearing what ther is out there on offer.

Case in point, in the mp3 showcase section at the moment there are only 2 threads that have garered more than 1 or 2 replies from anyone on this board, and one of those threads is about someone asking which mic suits his voice, and the other is someone posting their 'soft rock/coldplay tunes', and I find this extremely disconcerting.

This isn't just gearslutz, this is the way it is over the whole internet, and I find it absurd that in the current climate, nobody in the biz actually seems to give a flying about the people that will eventually be lining their pockets.
It's disgraceful quite frankly!

You're making assumptions about the music I (for one) make, but you're not even bothering to find out what it is exactly that I do.

And I'm not shy, I posted a link to the track in the SMGSLT section, the Electronic section, and the mp3 showcase section, and not one reply.
And I know it's not ****, people here are just so damn apathetic when it comes to checking out new music, but yet still find time to write long posts complaining about the lack of it.

The last track I have done is here, no loops, no samples, all played and programmed by me, like everything else I have ever done.

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Now what happens is that I will sometimes just hear a quote in my head from a movie that I saw, where the quote fits the mood of the piece, and more importantly, it adds somethign to what is all ready there, not vice-versa.
I'm not saying that what I am doing is ground-breaking, but I feel that it is in many ways more valid musically than anything I hear on the radio etc.

The sad thing is that as an unknown, I continue to make music in spite of the industry, not because of it.

I just want to touch on what you said about people like me wanting something for free until such time as it goes commercial.
This is obviously not the business model we know today, but what we're talking about here is not something directly connected to the revenue stream of a movie, in this case.

Musicians using dialogue clips in musical compositions are not 'potential revenue' earners that are pencilled into the financial projections and expectations of large movie studios, it's a different kettle of fish.
The Reaper software for example shows the kind of flexibiility that I expect from these times - you can download it and use it for free, but you start making money, and we'd like to see some too thank you very much.

Now you can argue over the details about how to enforce it etc, but it's the concept I'm interested in, the philosophy.
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #43
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
Bill, I totally understand where you are coming from, but it saddens me slightly that you seem so predisposed to write off anything that contains a sample as being unartistic, or more to the point, unoriginal.
You completely misunderstood or I didn't clarify. I think that the generation of samplers / sequencers users has cheapened the artistry. I studied music concrete and Pierre Schaeffer's works long before a sampler was even an idea in someone's head. A hardware/software sampler is vastly superior to those techniques, but sadly, (for the most part) the creativity and artistry did not grow exponentially with the power of the sound generation. If fact, it grew stale and became in-bred, yeilding a generation of people who think manipulating samples and loops is a shortcut to becoming a true artist. I like a lot of sampled music. I just think that the fact that anyone - and I do mean anyone - can buy a laptop, a couple of pieces of software, have zero musical training or background and be an "artist" overnight. Where is the artistry? The craftsmanship? The virtuosity? The unique voice? Certainly no where to be found around here.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
That is a very dated and uninformed opinion.
And again, one that you seem intent on hanging on me that is, in fact, not mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
Now I do agree with you that sampling has been abused, and I hate tracks made from loops just as much as the next man, which is why I never use them, you're still seeming to confuse 'using a sample' with 'using loops',
No, I understand the distinction quite well. I've worked in the studio for many years doing both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
This is misguided and actually quite offensive.
Whatever..... You're going to believe whatever you want to believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
Case in point, in the mp3 showcase section at the moment there are only 2 threads that have garered more than 1 or 2 replies from anyone on this board, and one of those threads is about someone asking which mic suits his voice, and the other is someone posting their 'soft rock/coldplay tunes', and I find this extremely disconcerting.
Gearslutz isn't where I think to go to look/listen to music. I come here for gear or business oriented discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
You're making assumptions about the music I (for one) make, but you're not even bothering to find out what it is exactly that I do.

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I bothered.....

bp
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #44
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
but it's the concept I'm interested in, the philosophy.
philosophyslutz.com????



Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #45
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🎧 10 years
Ah, you know what, we're not getting anywhere here.

Your musical prejudices will not be shaken, I can see that.

I find it disturbing still though that you direct this anger towards electronic artists, when in fact the biggest crimes against music are bieng committed by those brandishing guitars and microphones.

Further, if you posted this
Quote:
I think that the generation of samplers / sequencers users has cheapened the artistry. I studied music concrete and Pierre Schaeffer's works long before a sampler was even an idea in someone's head. A hardware/software sampler is vastly superior to those techniques, but sadly, (for the most part) the creativity and artistry did not grow exponentially with the power of the sound generation. If fact, it grew stale and became in-bred, yeilding a generation of people who think manipulating samples and loops is a shortcut to becoming a true artist. I like a lot of sampled music. I just think that the fact that anyone - and I do mean anyone - can buy a laptop, a couple of pieces of software, have zero musical training or background and be an "artist" overnight. Where is the artistry? The craftsmanship? The virtuosity? The unique voice? Certainly no where to be found around here.....
in the electronic section of this forum, you would be met quite rightly with derision I would think, especially after someone from that community has all ready agreed with you that the mindless use of samples with no intent to further ones musical horizons is indeed a curse.

But as you said, you believe what you want to believe, there is more crap out there than good, across all genres, to write one off as being less creative or artistic or as having less artistic integrity than another is foolish.
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #46
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mprewett ➑️
Am I to understand from what's been said here that when a radio station has a 15 sec program intro that includes boku number of clips from films and songs, etc. that it is illegal? If it is, I assume it's just too bothersome and pointless to litigate?
no - broadcast licenses allow programmes to transmit UNALTERED any licensed media - so that includes film clips etc etc ....If the are altered - you can bet yer butt that permission was sought. There are certain elasticities in the law(s) that allow trailers to be comped together - but they are often cleared or follow the clearances.

Where the OP is different is that he is using samples in a new composition, and that requires specific clearance.
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #47
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🎧 10 years
Defcon 5!!
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #48
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
Thanks for completely missing the point. There are thousands of examples where artists have been wiling to share samples and parts of tracks in order for them to be used in other creative and artistic endeavours.
In fact, there are hundreds of competitions up on the internet with samples of instruments and vocals of well-known acts made available for artists to remix and use creatively, and this is a good thing.

Your absolute ownership attitude is what is wrong with the industry in general, it's nothing to be proud of.
So that's my problem. Your attitude is the same attitude as the money men, it's not the attitude taken by the artists themselves.

Narcoman hit the nail on the head, firstly by understanding the creative process, and secondly by pointing out that it is the desire for more money and not more art that is governing the decision to say yes or no in these situations, and of course I appreciate that this is a concern, but it's still not something that I think is ideal.

No artist under the sun would deny the use of a sample if it was to be used for an artistic purpose that they appreciated, so long as they got their dues were it to become commercial.
Interesting reading this thread.

I have a question FeatheredSerpent: why should you be allowed to use my work, my time and my talent (if I have any) for free and/or without my permission? Just because you (consider that you) are doing art?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking you or looped/sampled base music in any form. I made that question just to make you aware of what you are saying.

Another question... if I invested time and money to design and build an ultralight gearbox with new and inventive composite components, why should you be allowed to copy ONE of its components and use it in another way without paying me? If you think Copyright as being a Patent you my find easier to understand what the other guys are saying here.

The system maybe not good, but to use the word "art" as a reason to use others work freely and without permission is not enough for me.
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #49
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Hmm. Ok, firstly, can we get the sample/loop-based music out of the equation, as it's not the point here. This isn't the music I write and it seems to cast a shadow on the proceedings, it was brought up by Bill because he apparently detests it and that's fine, but it's off topic in my case.

Right, so we could have a discussion - "What is art". But let's not, it will get boring quickly.

Let's instead cut to the chase and assume, quite correctly, that I am a musician creating original works played in note for note.
Now we have to keep things in context, I have very decidedly drawn a line between movie dialogue clips and other pieces of music, I feel there is a difference and that's what this is about.
So if you were an actor, and I came to you (and note that I have never said that I don't expect to have to ask permission, how many people would have even sent the fax in the first place?), and said to you "look, that line and the way you delivered it is great, I'm an unsigned artist and would love to use it in a composition for atmosphere, is that cool, and if I go commercial then let's say you take x amount".

Are you really just going to turn around to me and say "**** off". In reality, no you wouldn't, unless you were a complete control freak with other issues on top, but in reality, it's not you I'm allowed to ask, and it's not you that gives the answer.

This reminds me of a post in the Michael Brauer Q+A I was just reading. After he acquired a manager, he met an artist he knew and asked why he hadn't been offered any projects from him, and the artist replied that he had actually sent his manager some songs asking for Michael specifically because he was perfect for a project, but the manager had turned the artist down flat making up some excuses why Michael couldn't work with them.

If you can follow my admittedly rather esoteric line of thinking then you can see the point I'm trying to make.
You and some others make it sound like you are about to be pickpocketed, and I find that way of thinking quite vulgar in what should really be seen as a fairly sacred community.
If you don't get that then no amount of considered reasoning from me is going to make the blind bit of difference to you or anyone else, and fair enough, but for me it boils down to attitude.

Your second theoretical question is not really holding water for me because the last time I looked, the English language was not a new and inventive component, the words used in the dialogue clip were not new and inventive words.
This is completely different, were I to want video, or stills, or to use a logo etc etc then I would see things completely differently, but this is not the same thing, and it should be viewed differently.
The fact that I can get someone to record the same lines, word for word, match the accent, the intonation etc, perfectly, and still be within the law even when selling the works for profit, should show you how ridiculous this whole sham is.

Now if you are content to tar everything with the same brush then so be it, yes it's the easiest thing to do, but it's not the best thing to do, and it's not the right thing to do, imo.
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #50
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
Are you really just going to turn around to me and say "**** off". In reality, no you wouldn't, unless you were a complete control freak with other issues on top, but in reality, it's not you I'm allowed to ask, and it's not you that gives the answer.
First I would never say "**** off", I would be flattered! But it doesn't necessarily means that I would agree that you could use my stuff!

Now seriously... my question and the "not so good patent comparison" actually made us come to the core issue (was probably mentioned already in the thread but I'm a bit slow today): WHO (what kind of people) controls the rights... and there I'm with you... it should be the artist but usually it isn't.
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
Your second theoretical question is not really holding water for me because the last time I looked, the English language was not a new and inventive component, the words used in the dialogue clip were not new and inventive words.
Yes, English language is not "new and inventive" but the way you put the English words together makes "new and inventive" lines, texts, ideas, poetry, art...
but anyway I confess that my comparison was a bit off
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #52
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Well you understood my reasoning and that's good enough for me

Yes I know it's a little naive, and idealistic, but how did we get to this?

I just want the power put back into the hands of those that are worthy of wielding it.
Sure we need managment and money men, but the cart is well and truly leading the horse and that just isn't sitting right with me, and isn't sitting right with plenty of other people either.
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #53
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
Ah, you know what, we're not getting anywhere here.

Your musical prejudices will not be shaken, I can see that.

Ha!!! Just goes to show what you know. From your comments, I must assume that you place yourself in with the endless masses who buy a laptop, a few soft synths and call yourself an artist 3 months later - that's the only reason I could see you being frustrated. If not and you truly are an artist, you would not have taken offense from my words - which BTW you did not bother to quote - or you would have seen that's not what I said. As for electronic music, if you could see the racks at my studio you'd see (among the audio stuff) :

Prophet V
Jupiter 6
D-50
DX7IIFD
(3) S760's
AKAI 3200
Emu E6400
VSynth
DX7
D4
TX816
Emu Emax
Emu SP1200
V3
5080
Virus C
1080
Microwave's
Proteus modules...
Super Supiter
(4) Gigastudio III's
and on and on.....

I'd say my musical prejudice leans TOWARDS electronic music if anything. I embrace all forms of music - done with integrity and creativity.

Also, this inbred creativity is certainly not limited to electronic music - it's rampant across most forms of "popular" music today. It's just so much EASIER to inbreed in electronic music.

PS - I also have a trombone somewhere.....
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #54
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🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
you believe what you want to believe, there is more crap out there than good, across all genres, to write one off as being less creative or artistic or as having less artistic integrity than another is foolish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
HThis isn't the music I write and it seems to cast a shadow on the proceedings, it was brought up by Bill because he apparently detests it and that's fine, but it's off topic in my case.
dude, you are nothing more than a troll wrapped in "art". You put words into my mouth that I never said.

I haven't written one off, and I don't detest it. As a matter of fact, I'm call on to create it often. You and your arguements are a waste of bandwidth.....

Are you just hurt and vindictive because I didn't comment on your music?
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #55
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Is this what it comes down to? Name calling and petty jibes?!

Trolling??

Whatever dude. Go take it out on someone else, because I'm not going to bite on that.
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #56
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill ➑️
Ha!!! Just goes to show what you know. From your comments, I must assume that you place yourself in with the endless masses who buy a laptop, a few soft synths and call yourself an artist 3 months later - that's the only reason I could see you being frustrated.
I didn't see this before.

I place myself in the camp of people that before 2003 had never played an instrument, written a note of music or used a pc.

I taught myself everything, in time off from work, spending what I had on modest gear, and learning this craft. I've got a long way to go sure, but I call myself a musican with confidence now, and I'm proud of how far I've got musically.
Technically, production-wise that's a different story but I'm starting to get a handle on that too, and in time, I will have mastered both.

I don't mind that you didn't comment on the music, it's expected, but I have a nice play count which does the ego work for me

But why don't you put your money where your mouth is and go listen to the 16 tracks I've got up at the moment and then come back and tell me I'm a poseur.
If you can see past the piss poor production and naive arrangements of most of those tracks you'll see the musical value and integrity in what I do, because trust me, I'm all about integity

There you go, knock yourself out:

Welcome to Musicv2.com! | Social Music Distribution Network | The Feathered Serpent Home Page
Old 13th February 2009 | Show parent
  #57
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🎧 10 years
Man, you guys need to hit the peace pipe together and let it go.

Feathered Serpent, I listened to the four songs I found on your musicv2.com page. I enjoyed it, and it's been a long time since i enjoyed any electronic type music. Definitely take Dr. Bill's point home. Creativity and mastery are the mothers of good music and anyone can use to keep that in mind (even the best - heck, Brian Eno developed a system of written cards for just that purpose). Just take it as a good reminder and let the dispute over legal stuff go. And, you know, word to the wise, considering Dr. Bill's professional credits and work, I think it would pay dividends to listen more than speak. Even the very best need friends.

Cheers to all,
mike
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #58
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
FeatheredSerpent, I can understand where you're coming from, but please try and see what it is that dr Bill is talking about.

The sampling industry is one that draws a lot of flags for companies. The bottom line is that if Warner Bros. owns the audio files, it is their right to see how it's used and what it's used for. In your field, you may not have an issue with other DJs or folks using clips of yours that you created, but not every artist or company is willing to share their property that easily. All you can do is create as much as you can from scratch and keep trying to work with what clips you can legally get authority to use. If it was allowed for you to take clips from wherever you'd please and use them for your own manipulation then nobody would ever keep their copyrights to their music and anyone could rip off anyone. As dr Bill has said, you can't have the law protect you and then have it allow you to work with other people's work at the same time. It's a tough situation for your field, but please don't hold it against folks that want to keep control over their own property.
Old 14th February 2009 | Show parent
  #59
Lives for gear
 
FeatheredSerpent's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by mprewett ➑️
Man, you guys need to hit the peace pipe together and let it go.

Feathered Serpent, I listened to the four songs I found on your musicv2.com page. I enjoyed it, and it's been a long time since i enjoyed any electronic type music. Definitely take Dr. Bill's point home. Creativity and mastery are the mothers of good music and anyone can use to keep that in mind (even the best - heck, Brian Eno developed a system of written cards for just that purpose). Just take it as a good reminder and let the dispute over legal stuff go. And, you know, word to the wise, considering Dr. Bill's professional credits and work, I think it would pay dividends to listen more than speak. Even the very best need friends.

Cheers to all,
mike
Hi Mike, I'm smoking one now as it happens, Bill is welcome to a toke if he wants
Thanks very much for taking the time to listen, I'm really glad you enjoyed it! Praise is great obviously, but just being heard is enough :0)
Bill's perfectly right about musicanship, I've agreed 100%, problem here isn't necessarily this particular thread, but I have been vocal in other posts about my views on the way the system works in other areas and Bill has built up a general impression of me from those views, so he came into this thread jaundiced and it shows.

I'm all for making friends, I certainly didn't come here to make enemies, but some people obviously want the industry pushed one way and some the other, and this is going to happen.
I know I want my cake and eat it, and that I have toc ompromise, and that's cool, but it doesn't mean I have to like it, or keep quiet about it.
I am suitably respectful of Bill's credits, but that shouldn't, and won't have an effect on how I percieve people as just people.
I appreciate your advice though and am perfectly happy to let this issue go!

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_Chris ➑️
FeatheredSerpent, I can understand where you're coming from, but please try and see what it is that dr Bill is talking about.

The sampling industry is one that draws a lot of flags for companies. The bottom line is that if Warner Bros. owns the audio files, it is their right to see how it's used and what it's used for. In your field, you may not have an issue with other DJs or folks using clips of yours that you created, but not every artist or company is willing to share their property that easily. All you can do is create as much as you can from scratch and keep trying to work with what clips you can legally get authority to use. If it was allowed for you to take clips from wherever you'd please and use them for your own manipulation then nobody would ever keep their copyrights to their music and anyone could rip off anyone. As dr Bill has said, you can't have the law protect you and then have it allow you to work with other people's work at the same time. It's a tough situation for your field, but please don't hold it against folks that want to keep control over their own property.
Yeah, I know. I guess I was just thinking how hard would it be to write up a clause including movie dialogue in the terms of fair use for original, non-commercial compositions.
Of course I can see the implications, I just don't think they would be as devastatingly far-reaching as some may think.

But maybe they would, who knows? I don't want any decent artist's potential income to suffer any more than it is now, but I don't want all manner of draconian rules in place either.
Just wish we had a solution to this.
Old 21st February 2009 | Show parent
  #60
Gear Maniac
 
Michaelrophone's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent ➑️
Hmm. Ok, firstly, can we get the sample/loop-based music out of the equation, as it's not the point here. This isn't the music I write and it seems to cast a shadow on the proceedings, it was brought up by Bill because he apparently detests it and that's fine, but it's off topic in my case.

Right, so we could have a discussion - "What is art". But let's not, it will get boring quickly.

Let's instead cut to the chase and assume, quite correctly, that I am a musician creating original works played in note for note.
Now we have to keep things in context, I have very decidedly drawn a line between movie dialogue clips and other pieces of music, I feel there is a difference and that's what this is about.
So if you were an actor, and I came to you (and note that I have never said that I don't expect to have to ask permission, how many people would have even sent the fax in the first place?), and said to you "look, that line and the way you delivered it is great, I'm an unsigned artist and would love to use it in a composition for atmosphere, is that cool, and if I go commercial then let's say you take x amount".

Are you really just going to turn around to me and say "**** off". In reality, no you wouldn't, unless you were a complete control freak with other issues on top, but in reality, it's not you I'm allowed to ask, and it's not you that gives the answer.

This reminds me of a post in the Michael Brauer Q+A I was just reading. After he acquired a manager, he met an artist he knew and asked why he hadn't been offered any projects from him, and the artist replied that he had actually sent his manager some songs asking for Michael specifically because he was perfect for a project, but the manager had turned the artist down flat making up some excuses why Michael couldn't work with them.

If you can follow my admittedly rather esoteric line of thinking then you can see the point I'm trying to make.
You and some others make it sound like you are about to be pickpocketed, and I find that way of thinking quite vulgar in what should really be seen as a fairly sacred community.
If you don't get that then no amount of considered reasoning from me is going to make the blind bit of difference to you or anyone else, and fair enough, but for me it boils down to attitude.

Your second theoretical question is not really holding water for me because the last time I looked, the English language was not a new and inventive component, the words used in the dialogue clip were not new and inventive words.
This is completely different, were I to want video, or stills, or to use a logo etc etc then I would see things completely differently, but this is not the same thing, and it should be viewed differently.
The fact that I can get someone to record the same lines, word for word, match the accent, the intonation etc, perfectly, and still be within the law even when selling the works for profit, should show you how ridiculous this whole sham is.

Now if you are content to tar everything with the same brush then so be it, yes it's the easiest thing to do, but it's not the best thing to do, and it's not the right thing to do, imo.
And THIS is exactly where I lost interest in this thread. You had me up until here, but now you guys have gone WAY off topic.

To the OP: You started out saying you wanted to use this for your own personal enjoyment. Fine. Who cares? The problem you ran into is that you took it ten steps further by posting a quoted refusal on the internet and went on a rampage about why you can't do it, all the while implying that you have every intention to do it anyways.

Look, as a recording engineer in the digital age, I realize just how easy it is to grab these samples and use them regardless of whether or not you have permission to do so. If that's what you want to do, then do it. Just be aware that you're entering into sticky legal territory. Nobody's saying you CAN'T do what you want, they're just saying that you might want to at least consider the possible consequences first. If you believe you're in the right, then who the hell's stopping you? There's very few people in this world that do everything by-the-book. God knows I've ventured into sticky territory before, but I'm very selective about who I air my business to. As it stands right now, anyone with internet access can now read your intentions at their leisure. So if you do pursue your artistic interest, you may want to either a.) retain a good entertainment lawyer or b.) keep it to yourself.

Now, I don't know DrBill from anyone else on these forums. But after reading this thread, it's become abundantly apparent that he's a much more accomplished professional in this industry than you. That said, you may not want to be quite so dismissive, as he's giving you wonderful advise. Furthermore, it's FREE advise that a lot of people spend a lot of money to obtain via business school, real world experience, previous lawsuit experience, etc. I know it's hard to restrain your artistic energy when the drive is there. But there is in fact reprecussions to doing so with other people's intellectual property. You may be true to what you're saying right now, but if you were more accomplished and had a few hits to your name, you might not be so keen on someone else basardizing your art for the purposes of creating their own.

And as for DrBill: You should know better than to engage in petty internet debates. Just let the guy bury himself. Will it affect your business? Then why the hell do you care?

I'm with you that the technicallities of this business can be a royal pain in the ass at times. But these precidents are put in place for a reason. And even though it seems extreme at times, as your career expands beyond your bedroom studio and into the business world, you'll begin to understand their relevance regardless of whether or not you personally believe they're right.

So stop wasting time beating a dead horse and go make your illegal song already. Have fun. Just don't leave it lying around anywhere where it could end up in the wrong hands. After all, your intentions may be innocent but that can't neccesarily be said for the person that stumbles across a CD with your illegal song on it.

Now that I've stated my two cents, I've got work to do.

Good luck everyone,
-Michael

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