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Mastering without a DAW?
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #31
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cuebism's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantummastering ➑️
This is exactly why I use Winamp for playback, because it preserves the musicality or color (in my world). Samplitude also does the same. Reaper does not.
Winamp preserves WHAT musicality and WHAT color? Those found in the original source? How do you know there were any in the first place?
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #32
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuebism ➑️
Winamp preserves WHAT musicality and WHAT color? Those found in the original source? How do you know there were any in the first place?
Yea I was just thinking about that because Winamp has it's own waveOut driver. But for some reason I do hear better sound quality than Reaper (on highest settings), but not better than Samplitude.
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #33
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuebism ➑️
I was waiting for you to catch my drift. So let me explain the paradox in the above statement:

Unless there is a way to inject the source directly into your brain, it is impossible for you to assess which DAW has playback closest to the source.
BECAUSE how do you know what the original, unaltered source sounds like??

By listening to it.

And how do you listen to it?

Via playback.

And what do you choose for playback?

The cat is chasing it's tail here.
LOL, I guess you can never hear the EXACT same original sound unless you had the producer's ears, brain, DAW, and monitor chain. DAWs do sound different to me, but why Winamp's waveOut at 24bits sounds better than some is a mystery.
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #34
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman ➑️
There is only one way to playback audio from a DAW - pass the data stream of the audio to the output audio system/codec. Generally these are OEM ASIO or Core Audio systems.
Right, I'm using Scope 4.5 24bit Wave driver, which is also selected in Winamp's output.
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #35
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantummastering ➑️
Right, but I'm asking what is the best sounding software player for PC?
foobar. its afaik the only player that works around all the bull****, windows does to the signal. that is for me a very valuable argument. beside the things, you can do with foobar except of working around windows.
Old 24th January 2013 | Show parent
  #36
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantummastering ➑️
Yea I was just thinking about that because Winamp has it's own waveOut driver. But for some reason I do hear better sound quality than Reaper (on highest settings), but not better than Samplitude.
did you make a null-test? as we know from many, many other experiences, our ears are most of the times the worst tools when it comes to small details. hearing is believing and believing is not knowing (exactly).
Old 24th January 2013
  #37
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1 Review written
🎧 5 years
quantummastering ... additionally, mastering not only involves adjusting the sonics of audio but can involve making shorter edits of songs, removing artifacts and re-drawing waveforms. Sometimes even blending one song into the next song or adding sound effects.

This said, if I went to a mastering house and they were playing from anything other than a well-known DAW, I would turn right around and take my money elsewhere.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #38
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe ➑️
did you make a null-test? as we know from many, many other experiences, our ears are most of the times the worst tools when it comes to small details. hearing is believing and believing is not knowing (exactly).
No I didn't but only because I trust my ears more than anything. It could be that the Scope 4.5 24bit wave driver sounds a bit better than the ASIO driver. Maybe that's why Winamp sounds better than some DAWs. But then Samplitude has the sound I'm happy with.

There are things in sonics that you can't measure with tests but will be apparent to ears.

I Googled "null test daws" and checked out some links on the first page until I read what Bob Katz had to say here:

Picking a DAW :: Bob Katz by underconstruction on Myspace

And this is what he said:

"It's a good start if the users give a DAW high marks for sonic quality. But ultimately the equipment has to pass the test of your ears. Shortly, I'll tell you how to perform an easy, foolproof listening test for sound bugs that you can perform on almost any DAW. Digital is digital, right? What goes in is what comes out, right? Not necessarily."

So basically if he hears and says the same thing I'm saying, I can't be completely wrong unless he's completely wrong and we both have bad ears.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #39
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narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Yeah - not sure I agree with Bob on that one!!
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #40
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narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantummastering ➑️
Right, I'm using Scope 4.5 24bit Wave driver, which is also selected in Winamp's output.
The point I was making is there isn't anything TOO an audio CODEC. They don't DO anything - they pass the audio stream to the DA system on the sound card.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #41
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillSimpkins ➑️
quantummastering ... additionally, mastering not only involves adjusting the sonics of audio but can involve making shorter edits of songs, removing artifacts and re-drawing waveforms. Sometimes even blending one song into the next song or adding sound effects.

This said, if I went to a mastering house and they were playing from anything other than a well-known DAW, I would turn right around and take my money elsewhere.
I know, but I'm not mastering to do edits and remove artifacts, only sound. If there are mistakes, I usually tell the artist to fix it. If they can't, then I won't accept it until I start using a DAW.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #42
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narcoman's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantummastering ➑️
No I didn't but only because I trust my ears more than anything.
You shouldn't!! Your hearing changes with mood, time of day, perception of surroundings etc etc. Hearing is a bastard variable hybrid of the subjective and objective.
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Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #43
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman ➑️
You shouldn't!! Your hearing changes with mood, time of day, perception of surroundings etc etc. Hearing is a bastard variable hybrid of the subjective and objective.
That is completely true, but if I can hear the differences I mentioned at any time with my eyes closed, then something is really up with those DAWs.

I will do another try one of these days to re-confirm what I'm saying.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #44
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantummastering ➑️
No I didn't but only because I trust my ears more than anything. It could be that the Scope 4.5 24bit wave driver sounds a bit better than the ASIO driver. Maybe that's why Winamp sounds better than some DAWs. But then Samplitude has the sound I'm happy with.

There are things in sonics that you can't measure with tests but will be apparent to ears.

I Googled "null test daws" and checked out some links on the first page until I read what Bob Katz had to say here:

Picking a DAW :: Bob Katz by underconstruction on Myspace

And this is what he said:

"It's a good start if the users give a DAW high marks for sonic quality. But ultimately the equipment has to pass the test of your ears. Shortly, I'll tell you how to perform an easy, foolproof listening test for sound bugs that you can perform on almost any DAW. Digital is digital, right? What goes in is what comes out, right? Not necessarily."

So basically if he hears and says the same thing I'm saying, I can't be completely wrong unless he's completely wrong and we both have bad ears.
That is what he said, but it's not all he said. Try reading the bits that contradict your original assumptions, too. Search "Some Simple Sound Tests You Can Perform on a DAW" and read that paragraph. First he describes using a bitscope to be sure that no e.g. gain changes are happening in the digital domain when they shouldn't be. Then a null test, which is precisely what has been mentioned by other people here.

If you ever hear a DAW changing the sound when just playing back, then you should immediately run rigorous checks on your system because either

a) you're mistaken. Phew, no problem, carry on

b) you have some processing enabled or some spurious setting. Oops, change the setting and carry on

c) you cannot trust your tools to pass audio correctly, which is more or less the biggest problem you can have.
Old 25th January 2013
  #45
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4 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
yeah, if your ears say something is different, and you do a null test and it nulls perfectly, your ears are wrong. it really is as simple as that.
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Old 25th January 2013
  #46
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AudioRadar's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
So is the OP saying Foobar 2000 is coloring the sound less than Reaper?

It's the audiodriver which determines the sound not the software...

Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #47
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by scraggs ➑️
yeah, if your ears say something is different, and you do a null test and it nulls perfectly, your ears are wrong. it really is as simple as that.
But a null test can't test for sound texture, which is what this thread is mainly about. You know, like how different gear sounds different, meaning has different color. A null test will only test for digital transparency of DAWs, but not sonic transparency or color, which is something you have to use your ears for. So if you think Audacity or Reaper sounds the same as Sequoia or Pyramix, then I don't know what to tell you.

But as always, no one has to agree with me

The thread was just about finding a pristine sounding 24bit-64bit player for Windows.

For those who are using Macs, check out Amarra and you'll hear what I mean. It most likely has the sound quality of soundBlade, which I have not tried yet, but they're both made by the same company.
Old 25th January 2013
  #48
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psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantummastering ➑️
That is completely true, but if I can hear the differences I mentioned at any time with my eyes closed, then something is really up with those DAWs.

I will do another try one of these days to re-confirm what I'm saying.
I think there's been quite enough "do daws sound different? Yes! No!" debate here...and no-one has provided any proof they sound different.

Plenty of us have provided proof to ourselves they sound the same...by null testing and blind listening tests.

Quantum - I appreciate you're new here, you haven't read a lot of other posts, but you're rehashing the same old arguments - zero proof, no blind testing, "I just hear it!" - all the usual hearsay. It's been done, it's old, it's not necessary to start a new thread on it.

Your original post was fine - your derailing isn't. Please leave it out. If you want to prove how DAWs sound different, please start a new thread and include session files we can all download and check for ourselves ( or point out where you're going wrong).

I like that you're keen and motivated, but it's like you're on a one poster crusade to dumb down the mastering forum.

Have a read of some of the "So DAWs sound different?" threads in music computers, and then see if you genuinely have anything new to add. Please!
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Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #49
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🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➑️
I think there's been quite enough "do daws sound different? Yes! No!" debate here...and no-one has provided any proof they sound different.

Plenty of us have provided proof to ourselves they sound the same...by null testing and blind listening tests.

Quantum - I appreciate you're new here, you haven't read a lot of other posts, but you're rehashing the same old arguments - zero proof, no blind testing, "I just hear it!" - all the usual hearsay. It's been done, it's old, it's not necessary to start a new thread on it.

Your original post was fine - your derailing isn't. Please leave it out. If you want to prove how DAWs sound different, please start a new thread and include session files we can all download and check for ourselves ( or point out where you're going wrong).

I like that you're keen and motivated, but it's like you're on a one poster crusade to dumb down the mastering forum.

Have a read of some of the "So DAWs sound different?" threads in music computers, and then see if you genuinely have anything new to add. Please!
This.

I'd love to come over and listen to your DAWs in your room and see if I, too, can hear these differences of which you speak! It's a small peninsula; you can't be too far away.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #50
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey ➑️
I think there's been quite enough "do daws sound different? Yes! No!" debate here...and no-one has provided any proof they sound different.

Plenty of us have provided proof to ourselves they sound the same...by null testing and blind listening tests.

Quantum - I appreciate you're new here, you haven't read a lot of other posts, but you're rehashing the same old arguments - zero proof, no blind testing, "I just hear it!" - all the usual hearsay. It's been done, it's old, it's not necessary to start a new thread on it.

Your original post was fine - your derailing isn't. Please leave it out. If you want to prove how DAWs sound different, please start a new thread and include session files we can all download and check for ourselves ( or point out where you're going wrong).

I like that you're keen and motivated, but it's like you're on a one poster crusade to dumb down the mastering forum.

Have a read of some of the "So DAWs sound different?" threads in music computers, and then see if you genuinely have anything new to add. Please!
I'm not dumbing down anyone, just sharing what I hear. I don't want to argue about DAWs. This is about mastering without a DAW. I just asked a simple question and others as usual strayed me away . And I could care less about digits and tests. In my world, ears are the judge. The sample on my page was mastered running Winamp at 24bits with Scope 4.5 24bit wave driver and recorded to a MicroTrack II, so it's possible to go this way and get the same quality as with a DAW.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #51
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamKapala ➑️
This.

I'd love to come over and listen to your DAWs in your room and see if I, too, can hear these differences of which you speak! It's a small peninsula; you can't be too far away.
Hahaha, so you're a Mainer too. This week was cold like never before.

I didn't use speakers to hear the differences, only DT770 headphones and a Lavry DA10. It would be very hard if not impossible to hear the differences on speakers, or at least in my room with my speakers.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #52
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Cellotron's Avatar
 
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3 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
The year is still indeed way young - but I hereby nominate this thread for the "Most Derped of the Year" for 2013. I have a feeling it could indeed be way tough to beat - although I'm sure someone out there will indeed try.

:P

Best regards,
Steve Berson
Old 25th January 2013
  #53
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
Anyways, I found some players and a possible editor to use if it meets the standards so my question is answered:


Foobar2000

Diamond Cut DC8 (an editor I tried years ago that sounded pristine).
http://www.diamondcut.com/store/inde...=index&cPath=1
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #54
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28 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantummastering ➑️
...and recorded to a MicroTrack II, so it's possible to go this way and get the same quality as with a DAW.
You're using the A/D on the M-Audio Micro Track II?
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #55
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🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twerk ➑️
You're using the A/D on the M-Audio Micro Track II?
Nope. UA2192 and Prism AD124. Using the MicroTrack just for digital in.
Old 25th January 2013 | Show parent
  #56
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echoRausch's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
I think it was getting a bit esoteric here... Maybe you should consider the speed of sound is changing according to temperature. It may influence the sonic texture...

I think a null test is the only way to verify possible differences in playback.

Personally I would never trust "media players" like Quicktime... they all have integrated EQ's and other "sonic improvement devices"...
Old 25th January 2013
  #57
Registered User
 
🎧 5 years
Thank you all for your responses. I have found the answers to my questions.
Old 25th January 2013
  #58
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travisbrown's Avatar
 
9 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by quantummastering ➑️
If something doesn't have any color, to me it's sterile. This is exactly why I use Winamp for playback, because it preserves the musicality or color (in my world). Samplitude also does the same. Reaper does not.
How do you know Winamp isn't adding colour and Reaper isn't reproducing faithfully?

I think you've got something janky going on with either your setup or your ears if you hear differences on unprocessed playback.
Old 25th January 2013
  #59
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🎧 10 years
Please make this thread stop! Google has probably already indexed all this crap.
Old 25th January 2013
  #60
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I'd third/fourth? Foobar2000 as the best player for Windows. It's free, extremely configurable, with loads of cool third party plugins, and if you use the ASIO or WASAPI output component, you'll get bit exact output bypassing the Windows kernal, just like a DAW.
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