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How to extract center only from LCR recordings?
Old 19th January 2013
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
How to extract center only from LCR recordings?

Hi,

I am posting this in mastering forum, since ME should know complicated MS and similar stuff...

SO, I was playing with The Doors- Touch Me , trying to extract center material only so I can get vocal as isolated as it can be.

So, soloing side component does the opposite, perfect karaoke technique...

But can I somehow kill the side material and get only what is NOT in the side -whats panned in the center instead of getting the SUM of channels?
Old 19th January 2013
  #2
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stinkyfingers's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
msed
Old 19th January 2013 | Show parent
  #3
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyfingers ➑️
I am playing with it already but I dont know how to cancel things that are panned to sides and leave only center material.
Old 19th January 2013
  #4
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Franco's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
[QUOTE=anabolique;8650185]But can I somehow kill the side material and get only what is NOT in the side -whats panned in the center instead of getting the SUM of channels?[/QUOTE]

There, fixed ur post.
Old 19th January 2013
  #5
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wado1942's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
You can't.
Old 19th January 2013
  #6
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Mikey MTC's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Waves Center plugin. Lower "Sides" fader, leaves you with mono Mid.
Old 19th January 2013
  #7
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Can You explain that to me, please?

I dont get this.. If you reverse a copy of the same material, it should cancel each other... If I have side material extracted by M/S, why does it not cancel all that if one of those tracks is reversed? Instead, I get the same result as soloing L or R channel
Old 19th January 2013
  #8
Lives for gear
 
🎧 5 years
It is probably possible. Do the math. But if there is any inbetween from L to R then the center extraction will include it.
Old 19th January 2013 | Show parent
  #9
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Mikey MTC's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by anabolique ➑️
Can You explain that to me, please?

I dont get this.. If you reverse a copy of the same material, it should cancel each other... If I have side material extracted by M/S, why does it not cancel all that if one of those tracks is reversed? Instead, I get the same result as soloing L or R channel
I don't think I'm understanding what you're trying to achieve here.
If you're trying to isolate Jim's vocal as much as possible, you're limited to what's sitting with him in the mid 'channel.'

Using bx_XL V2 from Plugin Alliance I've got a dedicated solo button for M and another for S. (Probably even easier than the Waves plugin I pointed to originally)

Go and get "bx_solo" from them for FREE!! and you can do the same thing.
Plugins - PLUGIN ALLIANCE - ENGLISH

I've just done this with the song Touch Me and I've ended up with quite a lot of information still sharing the center with the lead vocal, so you simply can't isolate it in the way you want.

In the early 2000s, some of the 5.1 DVD Audio remixes of classic albums used to isolate the lead vocals pretty starkly in the center channel. I've got one of LA Woman, though being originally on 8 track (apparently) things aren't as discrete as some of the later 70s stuff on 24 track.
Old 19th January 2013 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey MTC ➑️
I don't think I'm understanding what you're trying to achieve here.
If you're trying to isolate Jim's vocal as much as possible, you're limited to what's sitting with him in the mid 'channel.'
Actually, since its LCR recording , its even better for the puprose to simply select (solo) L or R channel only, that way I can choose Jim +bass+ drums or jim + guitar + organ. Brass is in the center with vocal, its shared by both channel so its there anyway. But I couldnt isolate instuments like this with regular, modern stereo recording...only with LCR and selecting Mid channel is just switching to mono.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey MTC ➑️
In the early 2000s, some of the 5.1 DVD Audio remixes of classic albums used to isolate the lead vocals pretty starkly in the center channel. I've got one of LA Woman, though being originally on 8 track (apparently) things aren't as discrete as some of the later 70s stuff on 24 track.
This is a really nice idea, thanks, didnt thought of that!
Old 19th January 2013 | Show parent
  #11
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Mikey MTC's Avatar
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by anabolique ➑️
But I couldnt isolate instuments like this with regular, modern stereo recording...only with LCR and selecting Mid channel is just switching to mono.
Ummm, no - because by solo'ing the mid channel, you're muting the sides. If you switch the whole thing to mono, you'll roll the sides in with the mid and hear everything. (Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying).
Old 19th January 2013 | Show parent
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey MTC ➑️
Ummm, no - because by solo'ing the mid channel, you're muting the sides. If you switch the whole thing to mono, you'll roll the sides in with the mid and hear everything. (Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're saying).
That was my understanding too... which is now compromised by practice ANd, if MS is basically sum/ difference, than sum is just summed to mono (which is MID)

Try it. "Touch me" is panned like this:

L - Bass and drums

R - Guitar and organ

C - Vox and brass

If you solo L or R channel, You can confirm that...

Next step:

If You select Side, everything still holds... You have everything except center (no vox- only delay is heard, no brass)...

BUT! When You select Mid, You get everything... try it with any plugin...

Its all the same. I have m/S monitoring in my Impact Twin -same.

At first I thought that my TC doesnt have MID /SIDE monitoring but MONO/ SIDE instead I even tried equalisers with M/S option... I have hipassed everything till 30kHz on the SIDE channel... still THE SAME!

AND: if You run mid and side channels in parallel ( and they are both mono now) You only get the result of selecting L or R channel, depending on whether is one of Your tracks inverted or not.


Something in our understanding of M/S is wrong...

but it has to be something with that sum and difference...

And even if it doesnt make sense, when I am confused,I am better with philosophy than maths :P

... SO, my philosophy is that You cant extract(isolate) "sameness" by already extracted difference from it..

Its not M-same and S-different but M- sum and S- different...

There are few similar threads and somene posted this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trifield
Old 19th January 2013 | Show parent
  #13
Gear Addict
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by anabolique ➑️
Something in our understanding of M/S is wrong...

but it has to be something with that sum and difference...

And even if it doesnt make sense, when I am confused,I am better with philosophy than maths :P

... SO, my philosophy is that You cant extract(isolate) "sameness" by already extracted difference from it..

Its not M-same and S-different but M- sum and S- different...
Yes, M is not the same as C. Mid is (one type of) a mono signal though.

You could only mathematically and precisely extract the centre from a stereo mix if everything panned left was also panned right to the same angle but out of phase (and vice versa). There are various techniques for isolating the vocal, but none will work perfectly on all mixes, or even work acceptably on many mixes, depending on how precisely you need it.
Old 19th January 2013
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
So, no DrMS will help me?

OR, as written several times... allegedly Adobe Audition has a "Center channel extractor" tool ?
Old 19th January 2013
  #15
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Greg Reierson's Avatar
 
Verified Member
5 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
If you're up for experimentation, run it through a Dolby Pro Logic system and see what it sends out to the center channel.
Old 19th January 2013
  #16
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neilwilkes's Avatar
LCR mixes are not necessarily going to have an isolated vocal in a centre channel if you plonk a 2-channel mix into LCR - all this means was the console used had pan positions of Hard left, centre or hard right - it is a mixing style so using M/S decoding on it will also give you anything else panned to centre at the same time.

Trying to extract a solo vocal from a mix is like trying to extract the egg from a baked cake.
Old 19th January 2013
  #17
Deleted 691ca21
Guest
yeah, thinking in terms of M and S for a mix can be VERY confusing. far better to leave that as a mic recording technique, and in mixing/mastering, refer to it as sum and difference. less chance of semantic mistakes that way.

back on topic, adobe audition has a great "centre channel extractor", and version 3.0 is now (somewhat vaguely) "free".
Old 19th January 2013 | Show parent
  #18
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dcollins's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
I believe the Waves "Center" plugin will do this.

Dave
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #19
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Jerry Tubb's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins ➑️
I believe the Waves "Center" plugin will do this.

Dave
This is surely a sign of the apocalypse.

JT
Old 20th January 2013
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
🎧 10 years
Yeah... Waves wont do it.

I tried Audition yesterday and its the only thing that does the job so far.

Not perfect but pretty effective. But It works .. I have achieved about 55dB of center isolation...at least, that was my case...

But, maybe I just should convert my 16bit audio CD rip to 24bit ... and take the volume of the whole song down by some 10 dBs or so and get even more.

I said this because it can suppress side material by maximum of 48dBs (which can be sufficient) but You have a slider for center channel and give additional volume to it...

In my case, 6dBs of extra center gain were maximum before clipping but I think You can achieve even more. Anyway, it works...

It does have some watery artifacts of side leftovers -similar to noise reduction but it definitely works... maybe those can be minimized by process I mentioned because center alone seems pretty clean except few points..
These points are between breakdowns where Jims voice is alone (cmon,cmon,cmon,cmon ) reverb/delay in side channels is pretty strong and nexts section with full band/orchestra again. ONly at these points, only for a moment (one tone) voice seems like lowpassed.
Old 20th January 2013 | Show parent
  #21
Gear Nut
 
Sempoo's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollins ➑️
I believe the Waves "Center" plugin will do this.

Dave
Sony Layers Pro will do this for sure
πŸ“ Reply

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