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Limiter that doesn't kill the drums!
Old 24th September 2012
  #1
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Limiter that doesn't kill the drums!

I Mix and Master Metal, I'm looking for an ITB limiter I can push that doesn't start killing the drums. Been using Ozone and UAD Precision.

Someone suggested Sonnox, which I will try.
Old 24th September 2012
  #2
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EddieTheRed's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
Slate Digital FG-X was designed for this.
Old 24th September 2012 | Show parent
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieTheRed ➡️
Slate Digital FG-X was designed for this.
That's great thanks for that.
Old 24th September 2012
  #4
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Chris Bauer's Avatar
 
Verified Member
3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
I master a reasonable amount of rock and metal myself and I tend to use the Sonnox Limiter. However, I normally aim just to tickle the gain reduction and then it works very well. In the kind of scenario you describe, where presumably you looking for quite a lot of gain reduction, I would think most limiters are going to have a tough time. The Sonnox Limiter can make music sound harsh and brittle when pushed too hard. But if you are relatively gentle with it, then it's great.
Old 24th September 2012 | Show parent
  #5
Deleted 6ccb844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieTheRed ➡️
Slate Digital FG-X was designed for this.
That's great thanks for that.
Old 24th September 2012 | Show parent
  #6
Deleted 6ccb844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Bauer ➡️
I master a reasonable amount of rock and metal myself and I tend to use the Sonnox Limiter. However, I normally aim just to tickle the gain reduction and then it works very well. In the kind of scenario you describe, where presumably you looking for quite a lot of gain reduction, I would think most limiters are going to have a tough time. The Sonnox Limiter can make music sound harsh and brittle when pushed too hard. But if you are relatively gentle with it, then it's great.
Thanks Chris, the trick nowadays seems to be to parallel the drums really hard and stick them right at the back of the mix.. People forbid I actually like a balanced mix with drums in them HA!..

The kind of push I'm looking for is like below, except more in tact and drums a lot more forward...



Old 24th September 2012 | Show parent
  #7
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Chris Bauer's Avatar
 
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3 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowAMD ➡️
Thanks Chris, the trick nowadays seems to be to parallel the drums really hard and stick them right at the back of the mix.. People forbid I actually like a balanced mix with drums in them HA!..

The kind of push I'm looking for is like below, except more in tact and drums a lot more forward...


… the Soilwork sound! Very cool.
Old 24th September 2012
  #8
Deleted 6ccb844
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First time I heard machine gun Majesty by Soilwork and the whole gothenburg scene I was hooked.. 14 years on and I'm still enjoying the adventure.. Great to hear we have a fair few metal heads on GS.
Old 24th September 2012
  #9
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heraldo_jones's Avatar
 
🎧 10 years
FABFILTER PRO-L, best limiter ever!!!
Old 24th September 2012
  #10
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teebaum's Avatar
 
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5 Reviews written
🎧 10 years
ozone in the newest mode with "transient recover around 100%" is one of the best in the "not killing transient discipline". better than pro-l (who have sometime a more pleasant overall sound), sonnox or fg-x (who sounds very good, but imidiatly make some really ugly distortions, if you hit him just a little bit to hard). elephant with the right setting can also be a good option for metal.
if you didn't reach the usual level without destroying the transients, you should check the signal you have before you hit the limiter.
a highpass and a really controle bass range help.
Old 24th September 2012 | Show parent
  #11
Deleted 6ccb844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teebaum ➡️
ozone in the newest mode with "transient recover around 100%" is one of the best in the "not killing transient discipline". better than pro-l (who have sometime a more pleasant overall sound), sonnox or fg-x (who sounds very good, but imidiatly make some really ugly distortion, if you hit him just a little bit to hard). elephant with the right setting can also be a good option for metal.
if you didn't reach the usual level without destroin the transients, you should check the sinal you have before you hit the limiter.
a highpass and a really controle bass range help.
I actually went like an axe to wood with tidying up the low end on this track, I am using OZONE 4 so I'll demo 5 and see how it works out.
Old 24th September 2012
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
Owen Gillett's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
+1 regarding the state digital FG-X
Old 24th September 2012
  #13
Gear Maniac
 
Owen Gillett's Avatar
 
🎧 5 years
I accidentally posted that last msg prematurely.

+1 for the Slate Digital FG-X. (I'll even spell it right this time)

In my experience it performs very well at making hot masters for metal.

Best,

Owen Gillett
Old 24th September 2012
  #14
Lives for gear
 
1 Review written
🎧 10 years
Curious on your opinion of Limiter 6 for this purpose..?

After spending a lot of time comprehending the manual, I feel like if anything could contour GR around a signal's transients, some exhaustive playing around with 6 and the various sections, with very careful listening, it has potential.
Old 24th September 2012
  #15
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sdbmastering's Avatar
 
Verified Member
🎧 10 years
Probably the reason your drums get "killed" isn't because of the limiter itself but because of the amount of limiting applied. Sometimes it's not the tool but how you use it!

Anyway, for clean limiting you should check out the Flux:: Elixir, then FabFilter Pro-L. I find the first to be more transparent but the FabFilter more versatile while still being clean.
Old 24th September 2012 | Show parent
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EL_HERALDO ➡️
FABFILTER PRO-L, best limiter ever!!!
Wouldn't argue with that
Old 24th September 2012
  #17
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
Hi u want the drums to sound crazy loud? Then u need to go back & remix your track, by using the smexascope plugin put an instance of it on each drum instrument. Next view smexascope on each instrument, you wil surely see that each instruments has a narrow peak for each time the instrument plays. U need to compress those narrow peaks only using a few compressors each compressing slightly until u see in smexascope that those narrow peaks are gone,because those narro peaks cannot be heard by an human, so it is actually eating up your headroom unnecessarily. Then use a limiter on each drum instruments to max out the volume, now re adjust the faders on the instruments to your liking. Now in mastering use a saturator plugin (not a compressor) on your drum track & try ti compress it until it sounds good, then bring up the fader for the drums, they will sound just as loud as your reference track, hope this helps. Do tell me if this worked.
Old 24th September 2012
  #18
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
I generally prefer to use a combination of saturation and limiting. Brickwallimiting alone will usually not only damage the transients more and make the drum hits appear weaker, it will also make the mix move more, making it less solid. Slate is excellent for keeping the attacks of kick and snare upfront, as is Fabfilter Pro-L in "transparent mode". For saturation ITB I like Sonnox Inflator (curve all the way down) or UAD Precision maximizer a lot, I set them so they take the first 3-4dB of load away from the limiter that follows. OTB I adore the peak limiter of the DBX 160SL which does the perfectly balanced combination of limiting and distortion. Whenever possible I use the dbx to do 80% of the job and follow with a plugin for doing the remaining 0.2-2dB of gain reduction when the client asks for a very loud master.
Old 24th September 2012 | Show parent
  #19
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by WunderBro Flo ➡️
...UAD Precision maximizer a lot,
Just FYI, you need to monitor the side (of the mid/side) when using the UAD maximizer. I found that it almost always distorts. It's too subtle to hear in the middle or stereo but it's very noticeable in the side. Once you hear it in the side, you can hear it in the stereo.
Old 24th September 2012
  #20
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmasters ➡️
Just FYI, you need to monitor the side (of the mid/side) when using the UAD maximizer. I found that it almost always distorts. It's too subtle to hear in the middle or stereo but it's very noticeable in the side. Once you hear it in the side, you can hear it in the stereo.
Thanks, but that's what it is designed to do, I would be confused if it did not distort. Used right (not too little, not too much) I like it's midrange-rich saturation characteristics. The Sonnox on the other hand is more "glassy" sounding. I decide depending on which direction suits the source better.
Old 24th September 2012 | Show parent
  #21
Gear Addict
 
🎧 15 years
Why would you ever want a limiter to add distortion in mastering?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WunderBro Flo ➡️
Thanks, but that's what it is designed to do, I would be confused if it did not distort. Used right (not too little, not too much) I like it's midrange-rich saturation characteristics. The Sonnox on the other hand is more "glassy" sounding. I decide depending on which direction suits the source better.
Old 24th September 2012
  #22
Lives for gear
 
🎧 10 years
massey l2007
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #23
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owen Gillett ➡️
I accidentally posted that last msg prematurely.

+1 for the Slate Digital FG-X. (I'll even spell it right this time)

In my experience it performs very well at making hot masters for metal.

Best,

Owen Gillett
Just demoing it now, it is a really nice limiter I'm seriously impressed..
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #24
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by bendermastering ➡️
Probably the reason your drums get "killed" isn't because of the limiter itself but because of the amount of limiting applied. Sometimes it's not the tool but how you use it!

Anyway, for clean limiting you should check out the Flux:: Elixir, then FabFilter Pro-L. I find the first to be more transparent but the FabFilter more versatile while still being clean.
Not trying to be an ass, but that is the most obvious statement I have ever heard. LOL! Hardware seems to cope with it well, so does this Slate FGX from what I've seen.
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #25
Deleted 6ccb844
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by WunderBro Flo ➡️
I generally prefer to use a combination of saturation and limiting. Brickwallimiting alone will usually not only damage the transients more and make the drum hits appear weaker, it will also make the mix move more, making it less solid. Slate is excellent for keeping the attacks of kick and snare upfront, as is Fabfilter Pro-L in "transparent mode". For saturation ITB I like Sonnox Inflator (curve all the way down) or UAD Precision maximizer a lot, I set them so they take the first 3-4dB of load away from the limiter that follows. OTB I adore the peak limiter of the DBX 160SL which does the perfectly balanced combination of limiting and distortion. Whenever possible I use the dbx to do 80% of the job and follow with a plugin for doing the remaining 0.2-2dB of gain reduction when the client asks for a very loud master.
That's some good advice, I'm using UAD ATR for saturation at the moment but I'm not getting along with it.. I might try sonnox inflator.. sounds cool.
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #26
Deleted 6ccb844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmasters ➡️
Why would you ever want a limiter to add distortion in mastering?
Well you wouldn't want a limiter per say to add saturation, but you do want saturation in your mix. It's compression and subtle harmonics sound louder to the ears..

It's pretty much a massive attempt to re-coup a lot of the analogue phases at mix and mastering. Even tells you all about it on George Necola's blog and he does similar stuff to me.
Old 25th September 2012
  #27
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
I've use UAD Transient Designer into PSP Vintage Warmer with great results - not metal but some pretty heavy stuff (Toadies, Burden Brothers, Descender). Transient Designer is also inserted on my snare tracks as well.
Good Luck!
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #28
Deleted 6ccb844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Castell ➡️
I've use UAD Transient Designer into PSP Vintage Warmer with great results - not metal but some pretty heavy stuff (Toadies, Burden Brothers, Descender). Transient Designer is also inserted on my snare tracks as well.
Good Luck!
That's interesting, you've used this on the mix down or / master bus?
Old 25th September 2012 | Show parent
  #29
Gear Head
 
🎧 5 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted 6ccb844 ➡️
That's interesting, you've used this on the mix down or / master bus?
Drum subgroup
If you have Spotify you can go to my page and check out Burden Brothers "I Am a Cancer" and "Trick of Logic" also Descender's "Little Power". All done with that drum sub configuration.
Old 25th September 2012
  #30
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
 
2 Reviews written
🎧 15 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmasters ➡️
Why would you ever want a limiter to add distortion in mastering?
Because when used right, it can sound better than limiting or limiting alone. The UAD maximizer btw is a saturator, not a limiter, it has a limiter button as well but it's main function is saturation, just like the Sonnox Inflator. However I find distortion resulting from digital limiter action unpretty, like when using anything other than the maximum "smooth" setting in slate or fast settings in the Sonnox limiter.
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